The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Rickenbacker Basses => Topic started by: Denis on February 19, 2010, 08:56:07 AM
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This afternoon I'm going to look at what's purported to be a '73 Rick 4001. The advertised price is too low to pass up at least a glance at the thing. However, I was burned once on a bass which turned out to be stolen so I want to be careful.
How do I tell for sure this Rick is a real one and not a Japanese copy? He says the neck isn't broken, that it has dings, etc and that all the electronics work.
I'd appreciate any and all input!
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Most Japanese copies are bolt-ons, but not all.
That's all I know, hopefully you'll get some more responses before this afternoon.
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read this (http://www.joeysbassnotes.com/Joeys%20frameset.htm). There's more info there on copies than I can tell you.
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Excellent, thanks! Man, that's a lot of info!
Okay, real quickly, regarding binding. Did Rick ever offer checkerboard binding?
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Okay, real quickly, regarding binding. Did Rick ever offer checkerboard binding?
Yep. Until somewhere in '73 it was standard on basses.
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From that site it looks like there were a fair number of changes to the 4001 in '73.
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I had a 73...
Had a 6 pole toaster for the neck pickup...had 2 truss rods. I've never seen a copy with 2 rods, although they may exist. Had the checkerboard binding. Had the cap originally.
My favorite bass
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I printed out all that information from Joey's Bass Notes and will take it with me when I go meet the guy.
What I have gleaned from the information is that if it's a real 4001 it will have:
1. Two output jacks with serial number
2. Binding on the body and neck
3. Triangle fingerboard markers
4. "Model 4001" and "Made in the USA" on the TRC (if it's a real Ric TRC)
5. "Grover" name on the tuners
6. Twin truss rods
7. No binding under the tail piece
8. Neck through construction with thin skunk stripe.
That cover it?
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The truss rod cover should be plexiglass with the Rickenbacker part silk screened under the actual cover. So it should be flat on top. Checkerboard binding went up until the middle of the year. Also the triangle markers went full width up until early '73. The neck pickup should be closer to the neck than the current 4003 basses. Good luck with it!
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That list looks pretty good, but as other people are noting, this was a transitional year, so slight variations are possible. I don't think that all '70s 4001's have Grovers, those changed around too, but that early maybe so? The skunk stripe is a good sign unless it's jetglo! ;)
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Good luck Denis ! A full report when you get back, hope you bring it home !
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Most copies have a single truss rod but there were fakers with dual rods. I have seen at least one.
Can you take some pics and post them? If possible - under the pickguard and nameplate.
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From that site it looks like there were a fair number of changes to the 4001 in '73.
Correct. '73 was a transitional year in which a lot of features dissapeared. (CB,FWMOP,Wavey Grovers, .....) I have an early January '73. :)
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Okay, so I went to look at the Rick, totally armed with serial number decoders, 13 pages of pics and essays identifying fake Ricks, and it turns out it was a '76 4001, so lots of those transitional issues I didn't have to worry about after all. The serial number is PG 5249 (July 1976) so it's a bicentennial Rick!
The owner was a really nice guy and obviously sad that he had to sell it. He's owned it for at least the past 10 years and he kept looking at it and wanted to play with it one more time. He showed me the list of around 20 people who'd called and offered him a lot more money than he was originally asking, which was $750. He must have liked me because he sold it to me for $700. It's been played a lot and has quite a few dings and serious buckle rash but I don't care. It's way cool.
Here are some pics. Whatcha think?
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05975a.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05977a.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05976a.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05979a.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05978a.jpg)
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$750 would have been an average price 6 or 7 years ago for one in that condition with no neck/truss rod issues. It's an excellent price today. Looks good, looks like you did well. But you haven't said anything about how it sounds and plays!
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WOW - congrats! That's even less than I paid for my '76 in 2002! Looks great.
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Thanks! I think the electronics need a good cleaning and I suspect the output jacks need tightening. It's possible that some of the soldering needs to be inspected as it doesn't seem to be putting out what it ought to be capable of putting out. You can tell it has a great sound but I think once the electronics are all spruced up it should be a lot nicer. Mids are really nice on the old girl! Balances very well and though it weighs nearly 10 lbs it doesn't seem so at all. I like it and can't wait to get her all cleaned up.
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That is a great score! I had a '77 Mapleglo years ago and loved that bass.
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Thanks! I think the electronics need a good cleaning and I suspect the output jacks need tightening. It's possible that some of the soldering needs to be inspected as it doesn't seem to be putting out what it ought to be capable of putting out. You can tell it has a great sound but I think once the electronics are all spruced up it should be a lot nicer. Mids are really nice on the old girl! Balances very well and though it weighs nearly 10 lbs it doesn't seem so at all. I like it and can't wait to get her all cleaned up.
Actually, my '76 is VERY low output. After I bought it I got some Seymour Duncans thinking that that would spruce it up, but quickly went back to the originals. With their low output they can seem weak, but put them through a decent preamp and they sound great! I used to use a Fodera Model 2000, but more recently use an Alembic F2-B. Basically, turn the input UP!!! I recorded this demo with my '76 and the new Taurus III - I don't like how the Moog turned out, but I think the bass sounds pretty good - it's just the bridge pup (which I don't usually use by itself) into a PJB Briefcase, recorded on a Tascam digital recorder: Taurus 4001 (http://hieronymous.us/music/T3_experiment2.mp3)
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Agreed about the low output. I recall having to turn my amp down when I switched from my '77 Ric to my '77 P bass. Love the sound of these basses through Sunn amps!
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I'm not sure if this year still has a bass cutting capacitor on the bridge pickup. If so, then you can win a lot of bass with bypassing it (with a little piece of electric wire).I personaly like this bass cutting capacitor. But only with both pickups active. I never use the bridge pickup on it's own.
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Congrats on a great score!
Bert: the bass cut capacitor was discontinued in '85.
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That is a great deal on a very cool bass !
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very nice. and great deal!
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great score...I am sooooo jealous.
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Thanks, guys, I'm happy as hell with it! I was fooling around with it and the thing almost has an upright bass sound, especially on the D and G strings. Neat!
Can you take some pics and post them? If possible - under the pickguard and nameplate.
Yes, sure can!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05981a.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05982a.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/bigtreebluesea/Rickenbacker/DSC05986a.jpg)
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The bass-cut cap is still there. I'd bypass it and get a fully functioning bridge pickup.
The truss rod nuts look good - on so many 4001's they are bent. I think you got a great bass for a great price.
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Yeah, looks extra clean inside.
Note the wiring channel made by drilling with forstner bits. Those were the (pre-CNC) days!
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Taurus 4001 (http://hieronymous.us/music/T3_experiment2.mp3)
I like that A LOT!
The bass-cut cap is still there. I'd bypass it and get a fully functioning bridge pickup.
The bridge pups were basically handicapped, then? Would you point the bass-cap out for me, please? That's a term that's new to me so I don't want to go messing with stuff I don't understand. Thanks!
Yeah, looks extra clean inside.
Note the wiring channel made by drilling with forstner bits. Those were the (pre-CNC) days!
So, how handmade were these things? When did Rick get CNC machines? It would be interesting to know much time it took to make one of these pre-CNC 4001s.
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"Would you point the bass-cap out for me, please?"
The .0047 cap is the LITTLE light yellow cap kind of under the larger light yellow .047 caps. I believe it runs from the 2nd pot to the switch. Go to the rick forum or Joey's bass notes to find out how to do the bypass. It's pretty easy and well worth the mod in my opinion.
I believe that this tiny cap has been responsible for the majority of pickup swaps on the older rick basses. Most players just didn't know why their rickenbacker sound was so anemic compared to their p/jazz basses and lots of folks switched out the pups to try and get that fuller sound.
Many players love the cap in place but personally I love the cap bypassed. A few years ago I got my 4005 and the cap was in place. To me it was kind of a plink-plunk bass sound...when I removed the cap WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!! I never ran a preamp though, and perphaps it would have sounded much better through one. My 76 already had the cap removed and I love the sound of that bass, and it has one of the nicest feeling necks of any bass I own. Great deal on a great bass!!
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"Would you point the bass-cap out for me, please?"
The .0047 cap is the LITTLE light yellow cap kind of under the larger light yellow .047 caps. I believe it runs from the 2nd pot to the switch. Go to the rick forum or Joey's bass notes to find out how to do the bypass. It's pretty easy and well worth the mod in my opinion.
Thanks, I see it! In the photo above it's sitting at an angle to the left of the two larger parallel ones. If removal of that allows the bridge up to fully function I wonder why they put it in there n the first place.
Are there decent production numbers for Ricks? It would be cool to know how many 4001s they made in '76.
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If removal of that allows the bridge up to fully function I wonder why they put it in there n the first place.
No need to remove it, just bypass it. And if you remove the cap replace it with a piece of wire.
Why did they put it there in the first place? That's still a mystery. It was there from day one of the 4001 until about 1985. I have heard theories about trying to avoid blowing up your amp with that powerful horseshoe pickup, but single-pickup 4000's didn't have the cap (obviously), and no amps that I know of were hurt.
Back in the day I replaced the bridge pickup in my '73 Ric not once but twice, spent a lot of money on that, and still could not fix the problem. How could I guess someone put a bass-cut capacitor in a bass guitar? This is totally illogical. I ended up selling the bass and switching to Fenders, which had all their bass frequencies. It took me many years to understand what the problem really was.
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Thanks! I think the electronics need a good cleaning and I suspect the output jacks need tightening.
Deoxit works really good for cleaning pots and jacks: http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=716. In some cases the noisy output jacks are just due to oxidation.
Ilan's right, just solder a short wire to both exposed ends of that cap and it will be like its not even there. If you really want to get fancy, swap one of the pots with a push/pull to open and close that bypass connection. I've been wanting to try the bypass on mine too just to see what it sounds like.
That is an awesome score, BTW. I'm jealous of the jetglo- my favorite color on Rics!
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Beautiful... beautiful... beautiful...
(Jealousy from the shed ;))
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Deoxit works really good for cleaning pots and jacks: http://www.redco.com/shopexd.asp?id=716. In some cases the noisy output jacks are just due to oxidation.
Ilan's right, just solder a short wire to both exposed ends of that cap and it will be like its not even there. If you really want to get fancy, swap one of the pots with a push/pull to open and close that bypass connection. I've been wanting to try the bypass on mine too just to see what it sounds like.
That is an awesome score, BTW. I'm jealous of the jetglo- my favorite color on Rics!
Yep, I've used Deoxit for years - in my line of work it has saved my bacon ( sorry Kenny ) over and over again.
The D5 spray can has a selectable spray nozzle, L-M-H, and is designed for a flushing action. Think of it as a high powered electronics douche ;D ;D
Oh, and a killer bass at a killer price! :)
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No problemo, Buzz... this little piggie just ain't in the market... ;)
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Well, dang. I ran it over to the shop and it turns out the bridge pickup is dead and the selector switch had been wired so that the neck up was always on. Also, the neck has a weird twist in it down near the body, something any truss rod adjustment won't cure. So, those last couple of frets are pretty much useless, especially on G. But uses plays those anyway, right?
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Well, dang. I ran it over to the shop and it turns out the bridge pickup is dead and the selector switch had been wired so that the neck up was always on. Also, the neck has a weird twist in it down near the body, something any truss rod adjustment won't cure. So, those last couple of frets are pretty much useless, especially on G. But uses plays those anyway, right?
STOP!
Never, never let anybody touch those truss rods unless they're completely familiar with the old style Rickenbacker rods and how to adjust them.
Are you sure about the pickups? Are you familiar with Rick-O-Sound, and if not, are you sure you're plugging into the normal input and not the Rick-O-Sound? From your description, it sounds like they may not understand Rick wiring.
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Doh! Okay, I'll shut up and listen. :-[
What can you tell me about the truss rods on these old ones, and how the pups operate with the Ric-o-Sound. Does the bridge pup work mostly in conjunction with the Ric-o-Sound?
The guy who looked at it for me works on one of the in-house bass teacher's Rics, and knew all about the bass cap and the push/pull switch which Ric sells as a replacement so I figured he knew what was going on.
I'm all ears...
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It's been several years since I owned a Rick, but IIRC if you plug into the Rick-O-Sound jack, you'll only get the neck pickup. ROS only works with a ROS box or equivalent. Plug only into the lower jack and see if you have both pickups.
I'll let Ilan or someone else with a 4001 explain about the TR adjustment procedure, but I know you should not just crank the rods.
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What Dave says...
My RIC was the only bass I never adjusted the rods on myself. On mine, once it was set, it never moved. No spring loosen, autumn tighten...it was a fine instrument once you got it professionally set up.
Both pups only work if you use the "normal" output jack. There is a huge difference in the sound between neck and bridge. On mine I could use the bridge alone, and it sounded very Jacoish, or even Musicmanish. (With the cap bypassed). I cranked the neck toaster into the body to facilitate slapping (not a lot of presence in the toaster), and it was an awe inspiring sound. Deep with lots of crunch.
I think either Alembic or Bartolini makes a bridge pickup that is a drop-in replacement, if needed.
Well worth a few bucks to get a pro to help...
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Here's a link to the rick forum "anatomy of a bass" thread describing the old style truss rods adjustment procedure. If you follow the guide you can easily adjust and tweek them yourself.
http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=387829
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Dminer, that link is great, thanks!
Dave and Patman, now I really hope the shop didn't undo something which really was working fine. :P Patman, your post especially makes me think an error was made with the electronics.
I don't mind sending the Ric to someone who knows what they are doing with it because that link leads me to believe that the neck might not be done for after all.
It looks like the Ric website lists dealers but no service shops. Anyone know a reputable one in the southeast US? If not, I'll ship it off...
Now I'm really sweating this.
Many thanks everyone, I really appreciate it!
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At least on mine, after you got rid of the cap, the bridge pup was pretty strong. I kept it raised as high as it would go without farting (happens when strings are too close to pickup), and rested my thumb on it. That's probably where the Jacoish tone came from (playing back by the bridge).
Before I got rid of the tone cap, I hated the bass...it was all neck toaster with poor definition. I bought my old one at "Wills Pawn Shop" in Cinti for $300 on a Friday afternoon, played it Friday night, and was ready to get rid of it. A friend in the air force who knew electronics looked at it, and saw the 2 caps--got out a little wire, and jumped one, and the rest was history. Played it Saturday night and it was awesome.
They are odd beasts, but sound great once you adapt to them.
YMMV
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What Dave says...
My RIC was the only bass I never adjusted the rods on myself. On mine, once it was set, it never moved. No spring loosen, autumn tighten...it was a fine instrument once you got it professionally set up.
Both pups only work if you use the "normal" output jack.
I think either Alembic or Bartolini makes a bridge pickup that is a drop-in replacement, if needed.
Well worth a few bucks to get a pro to help...
Oh man, then the bridge pup might NOT be toasted and it could just be he had the cable in the stereo jack? So, to use the Ric-o-sound feature properly do you have to have to separate bass rigs and a box or something?
From that link....
"Proper Technique For Both Styles.
The idea here is to take the load off of the rods BEFORE turning the nuts. There are two basic ways to do this. If your bass has the old style rods and your tech does not do what I am about to describe to you. Grab your bass and RUN don't walk to the nearest exit and never go back. The factory suggests placing the instrument on its back on a bench and securing the tail end. With the end secured, press down on the headstock to flex the neck backwards. Push until the strings lie flat on the frets. Don't be shy, you won't break it. You can actually feel and hear when the rods are loose inside the neck. While the neck is flexed, give each rod 1/8 of a turn clockwise to add back bow and counter clockwise to remove back bow and release. Check the tuning then the relief and repeat if necessary. Go slowly. Sometimes it takes a day or two for the adjustment to fully set in. On healthy necks the rods should be more or less equal in tension. "
Yeesh, I don't want to try this on my own!
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Yeah, the first time I saw someone PUUUUSH on the neck I couldn't believe it! (I think it was John Mouradian, son of Jim who also made basses for Chris Squire.)
RE: Ric-o-sound - you basically need a cable that's stereo on one end and that ends up having two mono plugs on the other end. The Ric-o-sound box isn't being produced anymore, but there are alternatives (http://www.bayoucables.com/bayouosound-box-p-222.html).
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I can imagine: I'd probably faint. Thanks for the link to the replacement Ric-o-sound box. Pretty neat and cheap enough to try on a whim!
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Denis, talk to Mike Parks in Raleigh http://the-music-connection.com/ric.htm about who to take it to. I can't remember whether or not he does service and repair on guitars he didn't sell, but if not, he should know who can help you.
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Ted's explanation is excellent. Every owner of a pre-85 Ric should read it.
Personally I find it easier and faster to stand up with the bass in front of me facing forward, pulling lightly on the headstock with one hand and at the same time pushing the middle section of the neck with my knee to a slight back-bow, turning the hex wrench with the other hand. I understand why it can be scary. But I'd be more reluctant to give the bass to a luthier who's not a Ric specialist.
Once you know how to adjust them properly, the old style expansion rods do their job just as well as the newer compression rods.
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Denis, talk to Mike Parks in Raleigh http://the-music-connection.com/ric.htm about who to take it to. I can't remember whether or not he does service and repair on guitars he didn't sell, but if not, he should know who can help you.
Thanks, Dave! The Music Connection was a pretty reputable music store here in town up until maybe the 1990s. The name Mike Parks seems familiar. I will contact him and let you know what happens.
Yesterday morning I'd emailed Rickenbacker for suggestions and just got a response from Richard Cannata at Ric, who gave me the same contact. Good to know you guys are all in line!
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Looks like Mike will get the Ric on Saturday and give it a going over. :)
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I've bought a lot of parts from Mike. A real stand up guy.
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Hey Denis...any news back on your RIC yet?
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Hey Denis...any news back on your RIC yet?
Not yet, but I only dropped it off to him Tuesday. Here's what I posted on the Ric forum about meeting Mike.
"Tonight after work I met Mike over at his shop where he gave the 4001 a quick look over. He's a trip and a half and I vaguely remember him from all those years ago when I visited Music Connection.
He thinks the neck is probably okay but he took it home with him to check out the electronics, dead bridge pup and some other things. So far he thinks nothing is serious. I almost had a heart attack when I watched him bend the neck and adjust the truss rods! However, I think the old girl is in good hands and he said he'd have a report in a couple days.
Afterwards we stood around and shot the breeze for a while and he showed me a new 4003. HOLY SMOKES that thing is beautiful! He told me it was the color of the year at NAMM (Montezuma Brown, sound right?) and that John Hall has a sick sense of humor as he was in Mexico at the time. Took me a few seconds to remember that term "Montezuma's Revenge" and apply it to the situation. That was funny! But that bass was stunning and whoever gets it is going to be happy as can be. I see now why Rics cost so much!
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I see now why Rics cost so much!
Actually they're an amazing bargain. Have you priced a Spector, Lakland, or Alembic? :o Plus they retain their value incredibly well, they have history, and you KNOW what you're getting. They never did a "budget" or import line. Santa Ana, CA baby! Do I sound like a fan boy? Crap..... better get over to the Rick Resource Forum. ;)
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Montezuma Brown was the color of the year about 2004. I had one, sold it to Scotty Allen.
The Montezuma's Revenge angle never occurred to me. No brown notes, please. ;)
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Monty was COY for 2003 and extended to 2004 because demand was high. It was the only COY for which they took orders over two years.
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The one I had was actually in stock at Bass Emporium in Austin. I traded a CS P/J Fender for it.
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Got a call from Mike today. The 4001 has no neck issues! Whoo hoo, that's a big one, considering I was sweating that. The bridge pup was pretty much dead, so he put in a new pup with a new chrome ring (the one with the cutout so the action can be lowered) and a cover. He says it's a really good bass, plays like a dream and that I'll be happy as hell with it. Can't wait to get it tomorrow!
Thanks for everyone's help with this!
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great news!!!!!!!!
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Great! It really didn't sound like there was a serious neck issue, still it was worth it in this case to have an expert look at it.
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Yes! Great news!
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Well, I picked it up last night and it sounds fantastic! The new pup is STRONG and I'm really surprised how different the bridge and neck pups are on it. They sound totally different. It's really cool how "woody" the 4001 sounds compared to my other basses.
The new chrome ring around the bridge pup has a cutout so the action could be lowered and it's really pleasant to play now. The neck is nice (not too wide or thick) and is easy to navigate. I like it and know that this one's a keeper!
Mike said i was really lucky because the 4001 had no truss rod issues at all and all the electronics were in excellent shape (other than the dead pup). He thought the flats were weird on it and pulled out a scungy '70s J-bass with rounds on it and proceeded to show off. It was a good time!
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Denis, glad that all is well with the 76. I love the neck on my MapleGlow 76, one of the nicest feeling necks of any bass I own. Does yours still have the mute/foam...that's kind of fun to play around with for that McCartney sound. ...and did it have the .0047 cap bypassed?
All you needed was a neck tweek and a new pup. I think you got a pretty good deal. ENJOY!! David
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Oh, boo. The neck pup faltered, came back, then quit over the weekend. I'll have to operate because I suspect a wire is out of place and causing a short or something.
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Doesn't sound like anything major. The bass is good on the whole and you got it at a great price, that's what matters.
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Aren't you going to take it back to Mike? After all, he checked out the electronics and told you they were in excellent shape.
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I would have but tonight I whipped the pg off, fiddled around with it and determined it's definitely a wiring issue to at the neck pup. Didn't remove the pup from the pg but that's next. Boy is the new bridge pup a lot stronger than the neck pup.
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I'd lower the bridge pickup until it matches the neck pickup. I hate it when I flip the switch and the volume drops. If you want to raise the neck pickup, don't over-tighten the adjustment screws, over-tightening sometimes results in cracking the pickguard.
There's another neat trick that I learned from Ted Staberow. Get a neodymium magnet like this one (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BZ082) and attach it to the back of the neck pickup. You will get an instant boost in the neck pickup's output.
(http://www.kjmagnetics.com/prodimages/BZ082L.jpg)
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If they put a new bridge pup on there, it's going to be way hotter than a 70s one. I personally would either look around for an old one, or replace the neck pup with a new one as well. It will sound great either way. I kind of prefer the newer ones. They're way ballsy-er, but they still sound like a Ric. Not quite the same "clank", but that's OK for me.
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If they put a new bridge pup on there, it's going to be way hotter than a 70s one. I personally would either look around for an old one, or replace the neck pup with a new one as well. It will sound great either way. I kind of prefer the newer ones. They're way ballsy-er, but they still sound like a Ric. Not quite the same "clank", but that's OK for me.
+1! I probably mentioned it earlier in this thread, but my '76 4001 pickups have VERY low output - they sound great, but definitely the quietest bass I own. I've also got an '04 4003 which sounds awesome. You can't go wrong with either, but it would be nice to have them match, huh?
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Ilan, that's a great idea! I'll try that first and see what gives. If I can keep the original pup I'll do it, but as in the case of the bridge pup, I'll replace it if necessary.
The bass sounds fantastic but as Hieronymous mentioned, it's pretty quiet, about the same as my '74 P-bass. However, that's what the "V" knob on the amp is for!