Author Topic: Thunderbird shootout.  (Read 25155 times)

Pilgrim

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #135 on: August 08, 2015, 08:37:28 PM »
At the risk of going off off topic, I thought the White 64 Reverse  sounded spectacular.

A noble effort to inject decorum into this thread.

Deluded, but noble.   :o
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veebass

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #136 on: August 08, 2015, 09:57:59 PM »
A noble effort to inject decorum into this thread.

Deluded, but noble.   :o

Fair enough. Back to the topic.
I recently visited this retired RAAF F111 at the Queensland Air Museum at Caloundra not far from where I live. It was one of the first batch delivered and is apparently still virtually functional. Mr Blackmore was not sighted.





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patman

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2015, 04:58:51 AM »
The '64 did sound spectacular...it was not your imagination.

Highlander

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2015, 06:26:54 AM »
I recently visited this retired RAAF F111 ...

I can guarantee you, the very mention of F111 and the RAAF, in certain RAF circles, it raises the hackles on the back of their collective necks...
Check the history of the failed BAC TSR2 project for details - with the above, combined with a certain Lord Mountbottom (persuading the RAAF to back off) and his Buccaneers, they scuppered it...
Effectively the death of independent British aviation design... :sad:

« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 06:32:38 AM by Highlander »
The random mind of a Silver Surfer...
If research was easy, it wouldn't need doing...
Staring at that event horizon is a dirty job, but someone has to do it; something's going to come back out of it one day...

veebass

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2015, 01:09:47 PM »
I can guarantee you, the very mention of F111 and the RAAF, in certain RAF circles, it raises the hackles on the back of their collective necks...
Check the history of the failed BAC TSR2 project for details - with the above, combined with a certain Lord Mountbottom (persuading the RAAF to back off) and his Buccaneers, they scuppered it...
Effectively the death of independent British aviation design... :sad:



Yes the Australian decision to go with the F111 was supposedly due to it's lower cost and better delivery schedule than the BAC TSR2. That didn't turn out so well. Australia waited 10 years for the Triple 1s and the cost trebled. There was a lot of controversy in Australia about the decision to purchase them. Still, a beautiful, potent plane and an impressive sight in flight. I lived near Williamtown Airbase (home to Hornet and Hawk aircraft) for some years and we would be visited occasionally by Triple 1s, which were normally based near Brisbane. I always loved seeing the big noisy beasts.
As you know, the delivery of the Australian F 111s was frought. At least we got to run F 4Es for three years.



Highlander

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #140 on: August 09, 2015, 01:24:50 PM »
Is it true they buried some of them...?
The random mind of a Silver Surfer...
If research was easy, it wouldn't need doing...
Staring at that event horizon is a dirty job, but someone has to do it; something's going to come back out of it one day...

veebass

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #141 on: August 09, 2015, 01:37:54 PM »

Aussie Mark

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #142 on: August 09, 2015, 05:22:58 PM »
Is it true they buried some of them...?

Only the ones that didn't lose their wings in mid-air
Cheers
Mark
http://rollingstoned.com.au - The Australian Rolling Stones Show
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Psycho Bass Guy

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #143 on: August 09, 2015, 06:50:46 PM »
Those F-111's were powered by Pratt and Whitney TF-30 engines, which were developed for it. They also equipped the first and most plentiful variants of the F-14 Tomcat I linked to earlier. The F-14 is actually the back-up plan after a planned naval version of the F-111, the F-111B, failed. That's how it ended up with the ill-suited engines but excellent fire control radar and long range air to air missile system, the AIM-54 Phoenix, which even in the 70's could track 24 targets simultaneously and attack six of them at once.  The F-111 never had the same engine problems as the Tomcat because "F" prefix aside, it was never a fighter and never subjected to the same throttle changes and airflow disturbances associated with high angle of attack that go with air to air combat. The A-7 Corsair II, an attack jet derived from the F-8 Crusader, the US Navy's last dedicated gun fighter, the SLUF (shut little ugly f&cker) in Navy parlance, also used the same engine without an afterburner.

 The TSR may have been packing the same Olympus engines of the Concorde, but it would only have achieved half its speed, as it was designed for low-level attack. Still, Mach 1.2 at treetop level requires a VERY sturdy airframe. Blame Robert McNamara, who championed the F-111 as an all-purpose platform, for killing the TSR-2. The US and its allies are also currently equipping with the newest "jack of all trades, master of none," jet,  the F-35, whose development mirrored the F-111's almost identically, except the US never pulled the plug on the worst variants of the F-35.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 03:47:20 AM by Psycho Bass Guy »

veebass

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #144 on: August 09, 2015, 08:57:10 PM »
Yes, the F 35.

Highlander

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #145 on: August 09, 2015, 11:48:05 PM »
The (then) Bristol Olympus in the TSR2 was a different variant to those used in the Vulcan and Concorde, and for that matter the ones used in the RN ships - slightly smaller - top speed was spec'd at Mach 2...
This is one of them at Cosford...


There's one up for sale for £25k on ebay at the moment...

The problem they had with this variant was disintergration - somewhat significant in engine development, I'd have thought - a Vulcan testbed was lost because of this during trials...

TSR2 only went supersonic once... a transfer between Boscombe and Warton... Bee Beaumont thought sod-it, lit one afterburner, and she just left the Lightning chase-plane for dust (film exists), which was running both engines on burn... all TSR2 crew were very caustic of the then Labour Govt for their shut-down of the project...

In full conspiracy mode - if you cancel a project, would you order the destruction of all plans, jigs, engines, airframes, complete or otherwise, to be done the same day, unless it was required to be a very public destruction to satisfy some third party, or am I wearing a tin-foil hat...?

Oh, btw, look at the Tonka and compare to both F111 and TSR2... RAF cancelled the F111 long before it was ever received by the RAAF.., settling on F4's then Tonka's...
The random mind of a Silver Surfer...
If research was easy, it wouldn't need doing...
Staring at that event horizon is a dirty job, but someone has to do it; something's going to come back out of it one day...

Alanko

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #146 on: August 10, 2015, 03:19:30 AM »
I find the TSR2 endlessly fascinating. A certain tranche of the UK aviation scene like to suggest that the TSR2 was a faultless feat of engineering marvel killed off by greedy politicians, bumbling civil servants, meddling Royals and Johnny Foreigner. I think the truth is probably a bit more complex than that, not helped by the fact that the aircraft was right on the bleeding edge of technology for the time, and that every aspect of the design was innovative in one way or another. I would compare it to the APT trains we briefly developed; lots of innovation and design overkill but generally not well understood by the guys that had to work on them and hard to justify financially. The fact that the F111 was late rubs salt into the wounds, yes, but the decision made sense to go with it, for me. I think people try and simplify it into a 'death of British aviation' narrative, which it almost certainly wasn't. I think the failed attempt to upgrade the Nimrods to the MRA4 platform could work as a similar allegory.

Where TSR2 gets messy, and interesting, for me is when you try and figure out what happened to XR219; the only TSR2 to ever fly. The jigs for TSR2, along with various airframe components and models were very publically, and petulantly, scrapped. The official line for years after was that none of the TSR2s remained, yet a fairly complete airframe appeared out of Cranwell a while later, a less-complete airframe surfaced as well as a procedures trainer, which is now at Newark. Some jigs are, I think, at Brooklands as well though left in the long grass(!). Various other TSR2 parts have appeared over the years from the back of stores and teaching facilities and I recently saw the radar from one at East Fortune airfield here in Scotland. XR219 was, again, publically and theatrically dragged off to the weapons testing facility at Foulness and blown to bits. However, the main fuselage from about the engines forward was removed some time towards the end of the '70s, and supposedly scrapped. It seems to be an open secret, or wild conspiracy theory, that it was in fact saved from the scrappies. I have a couple of names on record as to who might be responsible for this intervention, though it is likely that it didn't happen at all. In reality if it did survive you would be left with a gutted, fragmented cockpit section minus any avionics. However it is a remnant of the only TSR2 to fly, so it would be nice to see it some day if it exists! TSR2 sections remained on Foulness until the early '90s, yet there was clearly a culture of denial even then.

If anybody wants more details then drop me a PM...

Psycho Bass Guy

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #147 on: August 10, 2015, 04:00:13 AM »
In full conspiracy mode - if you cancel a project, would you order the destruction of all plans, jigs, engines, airframes, complete or otherwise, to be done the same day, unless it was required to be a very public destruction to satisfy some third party, or am I wearing a tin-foil hat...?

Then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney did exactly that to the F-14D program in 1989 because he held a personal grudge against its manufacturer, Grumman Aircraft. Killing it and its planned F-14E and F-21 future development along with cancelling the A-6G Intruder upgrade killed the company and they were bought out by Northrop. Of course all that money went into developmental funding for: the F-35, made by Lockheed.

Alanko

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #148 on: August 10, 2015, 04:45:40 AM »
My cream Tokai T-bird has arrived, and I get to play it this evening! I'm thinking of having a custom pickguard made up, with the bird image replaced with either a top-down plan of an Avro Shackleton or a front-on plan view of a TSR-2.

Any other suggestions? Aircraft that fit the relative outline of the bird on the pickguard. All welcome.

Pilgrim

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Re: Thunderbird shootout.
« Reply #149 on: August 10, 2015, 09:42:28 AM »


                                          :o  ;)
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