The Last Bass Outpost

Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: Dave W on April 21, 2014, 08:46:29 PM

Title: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dave W on April 21, 2014, 08:46:29 PM: About 5 years ago a member of another forum was proudly showing off the Gibson and Fender counterfeits he was making from low end guitars and basses. I objected then and wondered when they would show up used, and now they have.

This one (https://reverb.com/item/86118-gibson-eb-style-mahogany) is listed on Reverb under Gibson basses. In fact, it's a cheapo Hamer Slammer that he capped and added a Gibson headstock overlay and logo. At the time he named it the "Gibson EB Classic." :rolleyes: To be fair, he's now added in the body of the listing that it's not a Gibson. Likewise with his other listings. But how much do you want to bet that these will be listed as the real thing in the future? I can see it now: rare! custom order! one of a kind! prototype!
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Nocturnal on April 21, 2014, 10:08:55 PM: I'm sure there are already quite a few fakes that have been sold as the real deal. Sadly this situation will happen by people that are very aware of what they are doing, and then others that won't have a clue.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Highlander on April 21, 2014, 11:35:56 PM: Caveat Emptor is significantly more important when buying from afar...

I guess a request for a pot picture and the serial number would help...?

Was it Scott that commented that one or more of his Bach's are better than some of his original NR's...

It's a harsh world...

Has Uwe ever been stung by a ho masquerading as the real thing...? Anyone else going to come out here...?
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: gearHed289 on April 22, 2014, 07:22:43 AM: Well, there's THIS guy...

(http://www.flyguitars.com/graphics/entwistleVbass.jpg)
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: gearHed289 on April 22, 2014, 07:48:35 AM: And the "Gibson Discoverer". :rolleyes:

(http://alembic.com/club/messages/393/35757.jpg)
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dave W on April 22, 2014, 08:27:22 AM: Quote from: Highlander on April 21, 2014, 11:35:56 PM
Caveat Emptor is significantly more important when buying from afar...

I guess a request for a pot picture and the serial number would help...?

Was it Scott that commented that one or more of his Bach's are better than some of his original NR's...

It's a harsh world...

Has Uwe ever been stung by a ho masquerading as the real thing...? Anyone else going to come out here...?

It's not a matter of how good it is (like the Bachs -- although a lot of guys did change the pickups), it's about the lack of disclosure. This guy knows exactly what he has -- in this case, a modified $150 Hamer Slammer. His other items for sale are also real cheapos. Yet the most he's done is to amend the copy in the body of the ad to say it's not really a Gibson or Fender. He won't disclose what they actually are and he still has them listed under Gibson and Fender.

Uwe did buy a couple of "Gibson customs" that were actually made by Roger Giffen using some Gibson parts, long after Roger had left Gibson. But we're trainspotters. We were suspicious and figured out and he chose to buy anyway.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dave W on April 22, 2014, 08:31:08 AM: Quote from: gearHed289 on April 22, 2014, 07:22:43 AM
Well, there's THIS guy...

Quote from: gearHed289 on April 22, 2014, 07:48:35 AM
And the "Gibson Discoverer". :rolleyes:

I don't understand. I'm not criticizing anyone for modifying a bass. Were either of these misrepresented by a seller?
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: 66Atlas on April 22, 2014, 10:29:42 AM: IIRC didnt Entwistle buy the Discoverer thinking it was real? Had it even been appraised as real Gibson or something and later turned out to be a forgery?

I recall hearing about a guy in Asia making Moderne fakes and passing them off as the real deal years ago. No idea what happened to that guy...
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: uwe on April 22, 2014, 11:36:40 AM: Quote from: Dave W on April 22, 2014, 08:27:22 AM

Uwe did buy a couple of "Gibson customs" that were actually made by Roger Giffen using some Gibson parts, long after Roger had left Gibson. But we're trainspotters. We were suspicious and figured out and he chose to buy anyway.

I bought just one because it was a fake! I wanted one good fake in my collection. Every good collection of anything has at least one forgery, just look at art museums!

My two other fake Gibsons are homemade fantasy Gibsons built by Bill (an LP Bass from Gibson parts) and John's Blueshawk (with a Ripper neck and G-3 pups) - again full disclosure and I cherish them for what they are, I have my own custom shop luthiers working abroad!

Some fakes are great in their own right. So this here is no longer deemed a Rembrandt, but why they have stopped displaying it even though it is from the same era, from one of his associated painters and so well painted is beyond me:

(http://www.kaiserfriedrich-museums-verein.de/cms/upload/bildergalerie/gemaelde/der_mann_mit_dem_goldhelm_thumb420w.jpg)

As for the guy who had Dave start this thread I'd say that he barely gets away by saying that it is "Gibson style" only. Doesn't justify if he has been more deceptive in the past. What is disturbing is this inset here though, which gives conflicting and plain untruthful information:

"Product Specs

Condition: Very good

Make: Gibson

Model: EB Mahogany

Categories: 4-String, Short Scale

Made In: United States"

Don't know whether he was responsible for filling in that information or whether that was done automatically by Reverb, but it is his bass and ad and he should have seen it corrected.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Basvarken on April 22, 2014, 01:59:17 PM: I'm still waiting for a G4 to appear on Ebay :popcorn:
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Highlander on April 22, 2014, 02:04:28 PM: What's the story on that V ... ?

Looks like some EB3 parts; an early version ... ?
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: uwe on April 22, 2014, 02:22:52 PM: Quote from: Basvarken on April 22, 2014, 01:59:17 PM
I'm still waiting for a G4 to appear on Ebay :popcorn:

That was priceless. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: gearHed289 on April 23, 2014, 08:10:32 AM: Quote from: Dave W on April 22, 2014, 08:31:08 AM
I don't understand. I'm not criticizing anyone for modifying a bass. Were either of these misrepresented by a seller?

He said he bought them thinking they were real Gibsons, but neither one is. I think the V might be a tweaked Ibanez. The "Discoverer" looks to be made from EB-1 parts.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: gweimer on April 23, 2014, 09:05:56 AM: Quote from: gearHed289 on April 23, 2014, 08:10:32 AM
He said he bought them thinking they were real Gibsons, but neither one is. I think the V might be a tweaked Ibanez. The "Discoverer" looks to be made from EB-1 parts.

I've made the comment in the past, that given our nearly exclusive knowledge of the BaCH TH basses, a heavily modified piece, over a number of ownership changes, would likely lose the history and provenance, resulting in an unknowing seller buying one as a Gibson (and overpriced), then try to sell it as one.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Basvarken on April 23, 2014, 12:13:23 PM: The control cavity would always be a dead giveaway.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Pilgrim on April 23, 2014, 03:51:57 PM: Quote from: gweimer on April 23, 2014, 09:05:56 AM
I've made the comment in the past, that given our nearly exclusive knowledge of the BaCH TH basses, a heavily modified piece, over a number of ownership changes, would likely lose the history and provenance, resulting in an unknowing seller buying one as a Gibson (and overpriced), then try to sell it as one.

I think it's close to inevitable. All it would take is a new headstock decal and an uneducated buyer.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: OldManC on April 23, 2014, 05:45:57 PM: Quote from: Pilgrim on April 23, 2014, 03:51:57 PM
I think it's close to inevitable. All it would take is a new headstock decal and an uneducated buyer.

Quote from: Basvarken on April 23, 2014, 12:13:23 PM
The control cavity would always be a dead giveaway.

I can't imagine anyone paying even half what a real one would cost without knowing them well enough to catch on to the control cavity. Even if all the hardware were perfect repro pieces, that control plate is not.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Basvarken on April 24, 2014, 12:59:34 AM: Quote from: Pilgrim on April 23, 2014, 03:51:57 PM
All it would take is a new headstock decal and an uneducated buyer.

A decal on the headstock would be too obvious. The Gibson NR Tbirds don't have a decal on the headstock... :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dave W on April 24, 2014, 11:28:13 AM: It is possible that somebody down the line will sell a Bach as a Gibson. And if it happens, it may be an innocent mistake.

Keep in mind that the seller in my original post isn't an innocent seller. He not only built them, he's in the guitar building and assembling business.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: uwe on April 24, 2014, 11:41:19 AM: The product specs insert has been changed from this here (status: April 22)

"Product Specs

Condition: Very good
Make: Gibson
Model: EB Mahogany
Categories: 4-String, Short Scale
Made In: United States"

to this here

"Product Specs

Condition: Very good
Make: Custom
Model: EB Mahogany
Categories: 4-String, Short Scale
Made In: United States"

SOMEONE (other than the NSA) IS WATCHING US!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkvEDAg6MWw

Up here in space
I'm looking down on you.
My lasers trace
Everything you do.
You think you've private lives
Think nothing of the kind.
There is no true escape

I'm watching all the time.
I'm made of metal
My circuits gleam.
I am perpetual
I keep the country clean.

I'm elected electric spy
I protected electric eye.
Always in focus
You can't feel my stare.
I zoom into you
You don't know I'm there.
I take a pride in probing all your secret moves
My tearless retina takes pictures that can prove.

Electric eye, in the sky
Feel my stare, always there
's nothing you can do about it.
Develop and expose
I feed upon your every thought
And so my power grows.
Protected. Detective. Electric eye.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Highlander on April 24, 2014, 12:24:56 PM: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: mc2NY on April 24, 2014, 03:04:32 PM: Rather funny that an import Hamer could be passed off as a U.S. Gibson.

Wouldn't the real rosewood fingerboard be a dead giveaway that is isn't a real Gibson?
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Highlander on April 25, 2014, 03:43:00 PM: Oooohh... sharper than a sushi knife set... ;)
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dave W on April 27, 2014, 11:55:24 AM: Something else about the seller, took me a while to find and I can't link directly to it because you have to be a logged-in TDPRI member to see it:

Back in 2007, he sold a partscaster with a fake Fender decal to a buyer who paid with Paypal. I never saw the listing but he said he made it clear that it wasn't a real Fender. The buyer was unhappy with the guitar's sound but he refused to take it back. So buyer filed a "significantly not as described" claim at Paypal and told them it was not a real Fender. Buyer got a full refund and Paypal had the buyer ship the guitar to them, which he did, and they destroyed the guitar. So he (the seller) lost his money and the guitar. He then started a thread at TDPRI titled "Paypal Steals Telecaster Guitar". Some people were sympathetic, others weren't. I'm sorry he lost his money but Paypal didn't "steal" his guitar. It was considered a counterfeit, and if Paypal determines that an item is counterfeit, they have it destroyed.

Something to keep in mind for anyone selling anything with a decal or nameplate that doesn't belong.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Granny Gremlin on April 28, 2014, 07:26:44 AM: I considered putting a Gibson logo on my Loz Archtop project, but decided against it thinking that'd be lame and just stuck my own logo ( see avatar) on the headstock. .... also the finish work makes it completely unbelievable.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: nofi on April 30, 2014, 06:48:58 AM: your finish work or a gibson?
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Granny Gremlin on April 30, 2014, 07:37:12 AM: As in my finish work has no orange peel (nevermind that, in this case, it's an oil finish vs nitro)
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dbsummers on December 26, 2023, 08:44:08 AM: Hello! I just found this site because someone sent me links to it about my Gibson V bass.
I am Don Summers, bass player for The Moving Sidewalks. In 1967 I (customized ) my short scale bass which ended up in the hands of John Entwistle and was used in the Movie Tommy.
This thread is old but I can answer any questions about the bass prior its sale to John.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: TBird1958 on December 26, 2023, 09:33:07 AM: :-*

(https://i.imgur.com/NG2ZH2K.jpg)
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: westen44 on December 27, 2023, 12:10:02 PM: It's a little confusing having two topics with the exact same title.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dave W on December 27, 2023, 12:54:04 PM: Quote from: westen44 on December 27, 2023, 12:10:02 PM
It's a little confusing having two topics with the exact same title.

I've changed the title of the new thread.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: Dbsummers on December 27, 2023, 05:42:00 PM: BFG asked Gibson to make two flying V's for the Sidewalk's to use on the three show "Regathering". Not what I would have done but i had little direct input on the bass. I had to use a short scale because of my finger spread on a couple of songs. Ted House by Hendrix.
Title: Re: Beware of the forgery
Post by: lowend1 on January 02, 2024, 12:05:16 PM: Quote from: Basvarken on April 23, 2014, 12:13:23 PM
The control cavity would always be a dead giveaway.

A cavity search usually turns up a multitude of things...