The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: Govan on March 21, 2016, 10:15:25 AM
-
I'm building a 2x10 cab and I can't decide if I should put the x-over,Lpad and horn in it. :-\ The Emi. bp102's I'm using project the high end pretty well and it was suggested that at the volumes that I play at the horn wont make much difference.But I'm thinking someone else,in a studio situation may find it more diverse w/ the horn.
-
I may not be representative of the majority, but definately no. For a million reasons. That gets escalated to a "F*@! no" for studio use.
If you need more high end, pick a more appropriate pair of 10s (or even one more subbish 10 and 1 more guitarish 10 - they don't have to match).
-
I dig what you're saying,personally I was going to go w/ the 3010lf's that go even lower...I'm all about a deep full sound,I just wondered because most of my favorite bass players on major concert stages use cabs w/ horns in them, I was curious if they were using them,I usually don't see a mic on the horn...is it just to benefit the players on the stage?
-
Don't let the stage pics fool you - a lot of players don't use the horn (the horn is there since just about every cab available today has one, but disabled/bypassed much of the time).
A 10" speaker is easily capable of reproducing all the high end a bass player would need (remember: guitards just use 12s), though modern bass cabs tend to use modern drivers that are more like subwoofers than traditional instrument speakers, so their response either drops off or gets all nonlinear/peak and dipppy above 500-1000Hz depending on the model. There are some exceptions.
-
Yes,my 4x10 cab without a horn does just fine...I have heard people say they just dial the horn off.
-
I don't have a 2x10 currently - rather I have a 1x10 that sits on top of a 1x12. I usually turn off the horn on the 12 and turn down the tweeter on the 10 until I like what I hear. That seems to be not quite all the way off, but somewhere down from 12:00.
It also depends on the bass. When I'm playing a brighter bass, I turn the horn down more. If the high treble from the pickup is already a bit muted, I don't mind having a little tweeter mixed in. It basically matches whether I like the bass recorded direct too. My usual LPB-1 sounds good to my ears both direct to tape, and through a cabinet with a bit of tweeter turned on. Back when my main bass was a maple Ibanez with active Alembic electronics, I didn't like my direct sound much, nor did like playing through tweeters (I didn't have a cab with tweeters back then). I was forever asking FOH engineers to turn down the treble on the direct signal (or begging for a mic instead of a DI, but I rarely got one).
-
Good info,thank you! ;)
-
There's some little horn thing in my Ashdown but what it sounds like without it I have no idea...?
-
Horn? Heck no - it's a bass cab.
-
My rig is a Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.2 into a 12" and a 2x10" set of Shuttle cabs. I'm mostly a flats player so high end isn't really a big part of my sound, but I keep the treble setting on each cab at about 25% and there's plenty of high end. My ear tells me that quality 10" speakers are plenty capable of reproducing as much high end as a bass player needs.
-
I use a 2x12 Avatar cab with a horn. It has neo Eminance speakers which are not real high and crisp, but great on the low end. Like Pilgrim, my horn is set at about 25% and that provides just enough of a crisp edge when I want it.
Prior to getting a cabinet with a horn I was a very anti-horn guy ,but I've learned to appreciate their value when paired with a strictly low end speaker. I like it in my situation. However, if you have a speaker that delivers a decent amount of upper end there is really no need for a tweeter.
Rick
-
I have a little Ampeg portaflex 2x10 in my office with a horn. I've monkey-ed around with a little and settled on liking the -6db setting. I have no idea what that means in terms of percentage of operation, but to be honest I couldn't tell a huge difference between that and "off" :o
-
I don't use a horn in any of my cabs. My combo has one, but I keep it turned off. Sometimes when backline is provided, there will be like a SWR or Eden cab. Then I will add a little touch of horn because they seem to be designed to where you pretty much have to if you want a full range tone.
-
Thanks all,I agree it is going to be a BASS cab and it should produce low end,that is my preferred tone as well but it sounds like in some instances a little hf could dial in a sound for different basses,amps or even different songs.I think I'll add it to the cab,it will have an Lpad so it can be dialed off.
-
OK, BUT:
- crossovers are evil (and not even a necessary one here) especially when they're right smack dab in the midrange
- most horns used in bass cabs are cheap piezos which sound bad and have insane dispertion characteristics (don't mate well with the woofers). If you do this try a dome type or a compression horn ($$), bullet horns can be OK, or, best of all, a small cone based driver (not a tweeter per se necessarily, but something like a 3-5" cone) - dome or cone will give the best match to the woofers as regards dispertion pattern and will 'integrate' better (and you can get nice ones for pretty cheap because they're all out of fashion). ... just don't use a damn piezo horn. Here is a mid-high fill cab I made to sit between my amp head (it's the same size) and 1x15 bass cab to use as a full range PA at small coffee house gigs, Jamaican sound system style (2x5" midranges and 2x domes - for bass you'd just need the 5" - the domes are crossed over around 10K):
(http://www.grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/projects/MHF252T/MHF252T-front.jpg)
(http://www.grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/projects/MHF252T/MHF252T-Inside.jpg)
- before you cut a hole for the tweeter consider this: the highest note you can play on a bass is gong to be G at the 24th fret, right, which is G6 = approx 1568Hz, with some harmonics on that you'd need to reproduce up to just over 6kHz max. There are 10" drivers that can do that. I have a 15" EV that does 20-4K (this is a bit rare and considerred extended range) and I still roll off the highs a bit despite spending much if not most of my time well up the neck (around or even above the 12th fret).
-
Horn? Heck no - it's a bass cab.
+1
-
Horn? Hell no - it's a bass cab.
....fixed it for you. :mrgreen:
-
I have horns in both my 1x15 cabs and they are turned off. I don't like the sound with them on.
-
I don't like the sound of them either, but they can help you (and your bandmates) hear and locate yourself/you better in less than ideal stage acoustics scenarios. That is where I find them handy if you can dial them in. Drummers especially appreciate them with all the cymbals blocking out the high end around them. Stage sound is always a compromise and what you personally would like to hear may not always be the best sound for the others or the man at the mixer.
-
I do think the horn has a function for a bass cab.
The standalone sound is horrible of course, but that is not what they are for.
In my point of view the overtones give a bass power. One of the reasons that I don't like old dull strings is the lack of those overtones.
I prefer fresh strings for that reason.
The horn helps project these harmonics and make the bass sound complete and powerful.
It has nothing to do with playing high up the neck on the G string. You need those overtones on the low end too.
That's how I see it.
On my Eden cabs I have them dialed neutral at twelve o clock. If you dial in too much, the sound becomes too harsh.
-
Of course it's the overtones, the presence, it has nothing to do with whether you play an empty E string or a G string up high, in fact you need it more for the empty E string and even more for a low B.
I have horns in my MarkBass rig, not in my Orange and Ampeg rigs. Under optimal sound conditions I prefer either the Orange Little Terror or the SVT giant rig, but you can't beat the versatilty of the MarkBass rig and its ability to cut through with those horns as well. The Ampeg is more pleasant and natural in sound, relaxed confidence comes from power and moving a lot of air (300 watts all tube: 8x10" and 1x18"), the Orange is just hilarious in its allout RRRAAAWWWKKK! British nastiness (500 watts, pre-amp tube: 4x12"), but the MarkBass (500 watts, transistor: 1x15" plus horn as well as 2x10" monitor wedge plus horn) will make the duffest bass with the deadest strings still confidently audible, its signal is a bit like an over-eager pupil snapping his fingers when raising his hand to get noticed by the teacher. It's not a bad thing to rely upon if you have a gig coming up where you know neither how much room you will have (and where you can place your rig) nor the volume you will be allowed nor the acoustics of the venue. It's fool-proof though both the Ampeg and the Orange rig will attract more accolades from musos. Playing a MarkBass rig is relatively uncool in Europe unless you think that Jeff Berlin is somehow cool.
-
Except that the overtones (harmonics, or partials) on open E are much lower than those on a high G. There is absolutely no sound that you can produce from open E (barring popping, maybe) that can't be reproduced by just about any 10" drive unit. You'd need a bass capable of output above the 60th harmonic (which would be approx 2.5k and easily reproducible by a 10). Doesn't happen. If you don't believe me DI your bass into a DAW and run it through a spectrum/frequency analyser. If you want to be triple sure, compress the snot out of it to see there's really nothing there.
Now if you like the zing of new strings or you slap, then yeah, there might be some use for a high-fill drive unit (especially if your main driver is a 15 or a modern, aka subby, 12 or 10), but I would argue that this is still better served with a smaller cone based driver or a dome midrange/tweeter vs a cheap piezo horn (which sound harsh, period, you just don't notice when it's dialed down a bit... note also, if it wasn't for the fact that you're running a bass guitar through it, they can also be really bad for hearing damage - never play high gain lead guitar through one). Compression tweeters are also good because they generally can be safely used a bit lower down into the midrange, but they are also the most expensive option, which is why no cab maker I am aware of uses them (mostly used in higher quality PA systems).
-
Compression tweeters ... are also the most expensive option, which is why no cab maker I am aware of uses them (mostly used in higher quality PA systems).
... Except for Euphonic Audio, who have to do everything the hard way :)
My old CXL-112L has what I believe is a 1" Eminence compression driver screwed on to the rear of the coaxial 12".
Their current 210 cab is advertised as also using a 1" compression driver, albeit in a more conventional mounting.
They're a darn sight better than the usual piezo "bullet" tweeters - EA's full-range cabs make quite decent PA cabs in a pinch - but they're expensive, and I still turn down the level on the tweeter most of the time :)