The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Other Bass Brands => Topic started by: Chris P. on October 01, 2009, 10:25:30 AM
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Today I received a new bass for a review. It's an Indonesian made Sterling by Music Man which is prized between a MIM and a USA Fender in Holland. And I like it! More will follow.
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Not to take away from the review you'll be posting (because I like hearing your perspective on things), but you reminded me of this clip I saw a few days ago and I thought it would add to the thread. Our old friend, Ed Friedland:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Fo7AKwfA0
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I've heard that these are made in the OLP factory that used to make MM copies. MM nought the brand to make cheaper versions of their instruments, a kind of MMSquier.
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I've heard that these are made in the OLP factory that used to make MM copies. MM nought the brand to make cheaper versions of their instruments, a kind of MMSquier.
No. This has no relation at all to OLP. Different company, different ownership, different factories and most important, totally different quality level of instruments.
OLPs were made in China, these are made in Korea and Indonesia.
These are not made by MM. They're manufactured and marketed by an independently owned company and licensed by MM. So they're not like a Squier, which is actually made to Fender's specs and marketed by Fender.
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these are made in Korea and Indonesia.
From discussions at the EBMM forum I believe this brand is made in Indonesia only.
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Should I admit that I can't hear any significant difference between ANY of the settings and EQ combinations Ed played? I hear a difference between slap, fingerstyle and pick, and that's about it. I hear tiny differences, but I doubt they'd be audible in a performance.
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From discussions at the EBMM forum I believe this brand is made in Indonesia only.
When they were first announced, I though Pat Park said some of the guitars (but not the basses) would actually be made in Korea. But I think you're right. I found a UK article that said all of them are manufactured in Indonesia, with components made in Korea and final inspection and setup in Orange, CA (home of Praxis, Pat Park's company).
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Should I admit that I can't hear any significant difference between ANY of the settings and EQ combinations Ed played? I hear a difference between slap, fingerstyle and pick, and that's about it. I hear tiny differences, but I doubt they'd be audible in a performance.
There was a big discussion about that very fact on the site I originally saw this on. I listened with headphones and, though I heard slight differences, I didn't think they were big enough to tell in a band setting. Some people put it down to Ed's amp setup, saying everything he plays on his various demo videos sounds similar. I haven't heard enough to comment on that, but I will say he's a hell of a better slapper than I've ever been. ;D
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No argument there. It's a pleasure to watch and hear the guy play, even though I have no interest in slapping.
It just moves me to reflect about all the agonizing people do. One wants pickups in series, another in parallel, another is devasted because the body on his bass is not ash, or he thinks the bent-metal Fender bridge is sucking all the "tone".
And I can't hear the difference.
Now, I CAN hear the difference between my '63 P and my new Casady. I can hear a difference between the three varitone positions on the Casady. I can even hear the difference switching between rounds and flats. But I'm not sure how much more detail I can tell. maybe I need to try some side-by-side comparisons between similar passive 4-strings and see what I hear.
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+1 on the Pilgrim guy!
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Now, I CAN hear the difference between my '63 P and my new Casady. I can hear a difference between the three varitone positions on the Casady. I can even hear the difference switching between rounds and flats. But I'm not sure how much more detail I can tell. maybe I need to try some side-by-side comparisons between similar passive 4-strings and see what I hear.
There's the rub. You can hear differences on your own basses, and they're important to you. Yet most other people won't be able to hear them.
That's why people agonize over little differences. They want their sound to be just right even if most other listeners wouldn't be able to detect the fine points.
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+1 again. I think I can agree with both.
But I don't really mind which strings I've got as long it's nickel.
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Well series mode sounds silghtly fatter, single coil (plus phantom) sounds honky and parallel has some mid scoop in my ears, but the differences are small indeed. Maybe the preamps on those things are critical for their sound. I believe that in passive mode the differences on pickup configurations would be much more audible.
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I hear differences, but it's inherently always a Stingray Sound that you are getting - as it should be I guess, because I don't really believe that people buy a Stingray (original or clone) to have it sound like a P Bass or a Ric or a TBird. It doesn't and it won't.
And I've never thought the Stingray to be variable in sound either - the fancy-pants coil stuff doesn't change that -, it has one very idiosyncratic sound which is great for funk and via the active electronics you can water that sound down to something that sounds different, yes, but loses all character in the process. But that one Stingray tone is iconic, never mind how I as a pick player and non-slapper can never reproduce it.
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I've never understood that characterization. Stingrays have always been used in everything from punk to country. They've never been over-represented in funk.
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Of course you can play them in any music, but funky (not neccesarily slapping) stuff is where their general sound character makes you really perk your ears. Flea, Tony Levin ..., that is a classic Stingray sound to me. Cliff Williams isn't though he plays one. And you hardly ever see them played with a pick (probably due to their ultra-presence), Cliff Williams being again the exception, but not using a Stingray sound.
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I've seen 'em played with a pick many times.
Funk perks my ears, but not in a good way. :P
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It's the most pick-unfriendly bass ever, those huge pole pieces get in the way unless you have the pup real low which creates issues with that other stingray disease, the a little less assertive G string.
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Why would you need to pick right over the pickup? ???
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Why would you need to pick right over the pickup? ???
Because that is exactly the spot where your hand is, if you have the palm of the hand at the bridge (which is what a lot of pick players do)
Here's an example of a MM Stingray (made passive) played with a pick:
http://www.superfloor.net/BadAlright.mp3
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That sounds good, Rob. Still a MM sound when passive, even though the preamp is thought of as part of the sound.
I never pick or pluck down by the bridge. Too little string movement for me.
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A zillion years ago I saw Emmylou Harris at the University of Cincinnati Fieldhouse--awful cavernous acoustics
I think it was Emory Gordy Jr playing a (then new) Stingray with a pick and some sort of flatwound or groundround strings---I remember being impressed back then (probably '75? or so) that it sounded real clear in the fieldhouse.
The two other acts on the bill that night, Earl Scruggs, and Pure Prairie League, both used precision basses that boomed with an indistinct roar.
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Because that is exactly the spot where your hand is, if you have the palm of the hand at the bridge (which is what a lot of pick players do)
Here's an example of a MM Stingray (made passive) played with a pick:
http://www.superfloor.net/BadAlright.mp3
Quite right. The MM pup is too close to the bridge to pick before it and too far away from the bridge to pick behind if you want to rest your hand on the bridge. Besides, the way that whole bass hangs on you leads you to picking over the pup which is what finger players probably prefer to do as they can then rest their thumb on the pup. The Stingray ergonomics make perfect sense for a finger player, for a pick player not so much.
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What makes you think most pick players use that position? I've seen pick players play everywhere. Not everyone wants to be Nikki Sixx.
Here's some MM pick goodness from At The Drive In.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqsNR5pI6bw
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo2Aypi0R2c
One of my favorite songs using a Stingray w/pick.
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A few thoughts on the B.O.C. video:
1. I have always loved this song!
2. I HATE this video!!
3. What are those guitars they are playing? They look like a cross between an Explorer, Flying V, and Moderne.
4. What the Hell was the drummer wearing?? ???
I do like the bass sound in this song a lot tho. I'm kind of indifferent to Stingrays. I don't really dislike them, but they don't fit me.
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It is a pretty cheesy video. That is Buck Dharma's Balestra Vulcan guitar.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/25z1nok.jpg)
I really liked Joe Bouchard's Alembic tone on the Spectres record too.
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Ah, mighty BÖC. But that is not Joe playing the bass on the recording, it was Buck on that particular track. Buck demoed it at home, played it to the others and everyone (well, Eric Bloom mostly, the others thought some of Buck's songwriting "too commercial", but Bloom was pragmativ "we have families to support and shouldn't watch Journey being in the charts all the time") liked it so much they just stuck with the demo and used that for the record. It sounds a bit like a demo too feelwise. There is probably no other BÖC member featured.
Whether Buck used a Stingray for the recording is anybody's guess, he certainly played with a pick though.
Of course you can dig out Stingray pick players and they might even be picking away from the bridge (in a Stingray you kind of have to!), but they are exceptions to the rule of the finger playing Stingrayer. And most pick players on bass rest their hands where most guitarists would rest them (unless the bass is too low to rest the hand at all).
Nikki Sixx is an extreme and the pinkie anchoring in the optigrap probably a convenient means to still have some control over the TBird while having it slung so low, but you don't have to be Nikki to generally prefer to have more more "rebound" on the string as a pick player by not playing it too much towards the neck unless you are going for a special sound. I generally play a hand (my hand) away from the bridge because that is where the side of my palm rests as I do a lot of righthand muting, basically all the time. That works with most basses, notably not with the Stingray (those darn pole pieces ...) and the Ric 4001/4003 where the bridge pup cover forces me to play farther back to the bridge than would be natural for me. Why not do away with the pup cover then? I find the cavernous routing around the bridge pup of a Ric hideously ugly so I compromise.
Dave, you listen to At the Drive-in? That's almost prog! :o :o :o
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No, I hadn't heard of them until somebody posted the video at another forum a couple of years ago, can't even remember where. I was impressed by the bass tone so I saved it. Listened to a few more videos, their songs are (were) okay, nothing I would regularly listen to.
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the optigrap probably a convenient means to still have some control over the TBird while having it slung so low
Look, ma, no optigrab!
(http://deayton.com/guitars/greco2.jpg)
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Burning For You sounds like a Stingray to my ears. What about the later song "Shooting Shark" which almost has slap bass on it. Sounds like the same tone as "Burning" so maybe Buck was busy again? Of course, Joe is shown again with the Black Pre EB Stingray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU9Crc38eNc
Warning: More Cheesy Video Content :mrgreen:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ8WjJKt6WM&feature=PlayList&p=A41EE0E57811BCD9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=26
More Stingray w/Pick from Tom Hamilton. (Pre EB Radio Knob Stingray)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw4xJr47hRw&feature=PlayList&p=A41EE0E57811BCD9&index=27&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL
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Burning For You sounds like a Stingray to my ears. What about the later song "Shooting Shark" which almost has slap bass on it. Sounds like the same tone as "Burning" so maybe Buck was busy again? Of course, Joe is shown again with the Black Pre EB Stingray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU9Crc38eNc
Warning: More Cheesy Video Content :mrgreen:
I never grow tired of videos featuring scantily clad women crawling on all fours with an iguana mask and tail, but that song is once again not played by Joe Bouchard but by American Idol jury member Randy Jackson (who played similar stuff on Journey's Raised on Radio album). He was even credited on the sleeve at the time (as an old BÖC fan like me would know). I saw BÖC on the tour following Revölution by Night and Joe slapped the song live or had to - you could distinctly hear that he is no natural slapper (but a great bassist in most other ways) and that he felt uncomfortable doing it on stage. It was muffled, untidy and had none of that lightly skipping groove Randy Jackson is renowned for. Sure enough Joe left after that tour and that was pretty much the last straw that broke BÖC's back as a viable recording entity. None of the following albums would ever again reach former heights.
That said, Herr Jackson does play a Stingray, but he's also a funky finger and thumb player which - I dare say - seems to prove my point more than the contrary! :mrgreen:
(http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=tbn&q=http://imgsrv.nightswithalicecooper.com/image/nwac/UserFiles/Image/randyjackson.jpg&usg=AFQjCNFcid4wLPLRrpAT5DzufQUxPof3ng)
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You are good Uwe! I always thought that Shooting Shark sounded like it was played by a funk player. I'll have to go check out my LP and look at the credits.
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When I first heard the track, I was aghast. Together with the electronic drums it sounded nothing like the Bouchard rhythm section had once sounded. The whole Revölution by Night album, which has great songwriting, is marred by the electronic drums. For me at least. The dry rot had irreversibly begun to set in with that release, BÖC were chasing fashion (also bringing in outside songwriters "Eyes of Fire", good tune, but they had never been in need of outside material before).
I had no idea that such a thing as a Shooting Shark vid even existed, cheesy or not, thanks.
It's nice to have someone here to sensibly talk with about BÖC, Robert! If there ever was such a thing as a "thinking man's US hard rock band", then it was them. It's sad how they've reduced themselves to becoming a club act churning out the old hits, I read an interview with Eric Bloom comparatively recently where he was questioned about the lack of new material in the band's set list and he was quite bitter and dismissive: "The world is not waiting for a new BÖC album and neither am I." The last two albums they have done on independent labels after CBS dropped them weren't bad, but only a pale shadow of what they once were. For some reason, CBS also stopped remastering their later albums after having promisingly started with the early and middle period ones (the last one being Some Enchanted Evening as a double disc with extra tracks, recommended) - sales must have been abysmal. Not a happy band then.
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Imaginos is an excellent CD, too... albeit an Albert project highjacked by the label...
I saw them many times, still have the vinyl (a few on QUAD copies, and all the originals with inners, never found the 1st with one), and now, slowly getting the re-masters, only got up to Agent's so far... buying that LP when it came out on import in the UK and hearing Reaper for the 1st time still haunts me... got lots of singles, including a boot of What Is Quicksand/Arthur Comics, and a few boots, and still regretting selling the radio airplay LPs I had of 2 Hammersmith Odeon shows... (got most of them on a C90, but didn't have enough tapes handy to record the full shows... how dumb was that...!)
Anyone like me to post a few original pics from those Hammersmith shows...?
I am still in awe of Bill Gawlik's covers, but the t-shirts died years ago, had a beautiful white one that had the design covering it... 8)
I stopped buying their records when Club Ninja came out (but got the CD at the time, and did see the tour) last time I saw them was at the disasterous Donnington gig, where it all just fell apart in the rain... so sad...
Knew about Mr Jackson... Joe's done some releases (2 I think) as a guitarist, with possibly the greatest rhythm section I wished I could have seen - Dennis D and Neil S...
Can't argue with the sadness of what they have become... :sad:
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STOP THE PRESS...
The Bouchard Brothers are back together in a touring band, playing a variety of BOC, Alice Cooper, and original material, called BLUE COUPE...
Why Alice material...? Dennis Dunaway is the bassplayer...
Lots of live vids on you tube, and an official site... DD's playing a lurid green Jazz (?) sounds quite good, and reputedly doing a tour in the next 12 months, internationally... already gigging in the US... found the links on the Joe Bouchard site...
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Some good stuff by the old dogs! I've always liked Al's vocals. When I was a senior in High School my band covered this song with Al on vox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtg_SgDO8XM
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"Al" meaning Alan Lanier or Albert Bouchard? This sounds more like Lanier to me, but I'm generally only good at picking out Bloom's, Buck's and (what I think is) Albert Bouchard's voice.
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It was Al Bouchard I believe. Our drummer sang it and that is what he told me, but that was 30 + years ago.
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Definitely Albert...
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You are good Uwe! I always thought that Shooting Shark sounded like it was played by a funk player. I'll have to go check out my LP and look at the credits.
I listened to Cultösaurus Erectus and The Revölution By Night yesterday and there in giant letters is the credit to Randy Jackson on Shooting Shark. I don't know why I'd never noticed until you mentioned it Uwe. I guess I thought Joe was more versatile than he really was!
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I wanted to come back to the 'Ray 34 and how she sounds, but I'm too late I guess. Other topics... ;D
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Ray...? No, it was Randy...
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I love me some BÖC! Listening to "Spectres" at the moment. Years ago I saw them with Rush in the Greensboro Auditoreum which at the time sat around 9000 people. Each of the times I've seen them after that were in smaller venues holding maybe 300-400 people at most. One of those, at Lincoln Theater in Raleigh, NC, was terrific because they pretty much dropped their regular playlists and except for some big hits, played stuff they had mostly quit playing live.
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May I out myself as the sorry wuss I really am? My favorite BÖC song :gay: :gay: :gay::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Ge1QMwwgY
I know, if I was worth my salt I could name something cool like Harvester of Eyes or this here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7KPZtcOVQ
all great songs, but here I am stuck on this syrupy thing! :mrgreen:
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Mistress of the Salmon "Salt", Herr Hornung...
That is one of the things about music, Uwe, et al, it effects people in myriad seperate ways, so liking that tune is perfect for you... I really liked "The Vigil"...
They used to have a "super-fan" that they used to supply all of their demos to, and I mean ALL... Neil Young has someone similar that he classes as his "archivist" and knows more about NY than NY does...!
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I like Vigil too, the whole Mirrors album has great songwriting, that album just suffers for the limp sissy production. I think it was Tom Werman who botched this job - terrible producer for anything but Southern Rock. Which BÖC were not, even if they were many things. If 10 CC were Rosemary and the devil would have slept with them, BÖC would have been the unholy offspring ...
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... and a squadron of ME262's would have flown over to celebrate it's birth... ;)