Why am I not surprised. So Comrade Obama was after all not trying to run KKKibson and its Grand Wizard Henry J. to the ground. Another conspiracy theory gone awry, poor Americans.
Maybe it's the Tennessee office of the FWS that is over-enthusiastic.
The affidavit states that India prohibits exoprt of sawn fretboards nder HS 4407 but Warmoth will build a neck with an "Indian Rosewood" fretboard. Maybe it's the Tennessee office of the FWS that is over-enthusiastic.
The affidavit states that India prohibits exoprt of sawn fretboards nder HS 4407 but Warmoth will build a neck with an "Indian Rosewood" fretboard. Maybe it's the Tennessee office of the FWS that is over-enthusiastic.
Of course it soon won't matter. I did listen to Obama's jobs speech, and he said: "That’s why I ordered a review of all government regulations. So far, we’ve identified over 500 reforms, which will save billions of dollars over the next few years. We should have no more regulation than the health, safety and security of the American people require. Every rule should meet that common-sense test."
So how long will it take to rescind the Lacey Act?
The affidavit says more than once that India permits exports of veneer less than 6mm thick. That's what Gibson claimed they were receiving and was described incorrectly in the shipping documents.
The Lacey Act isn't costing any jobs, no matter what Henry says, and it had broad bipartisan support. That doesn't make it good or bad, of course, but if another country prohibits exporting a wood, I don't see how it's a problem to tell a US company that they can't disregard the other country's law.
One day, I will conquer Nashville and call it Neu-Berlin!
So it's safe to assume that the Sixxbird on order, errrrr.....now backorder, won't be here anytime soon :)
Fox News and Mother Jones are unofficial party organs, that's why I don't want to discuss them.
The assumption that a fly shit on the wall company like Gibson (in terms of turnover and size of workforce) would mean anything one way or another to even the most vigilant Democratic administration is preposterous though. And certainly a brand name such as Gibson with a "friendly product" such as electric guitars would have been a bad choice to seek out for punishment.
But professional wrestling is real.
Henry is a survivor and the brand is still strong, enough aging baby boomers out there buying the stuff with their pensions and "youngsters" - my son for one - have a positive image of the Gibson heritage too. My bet is on Henry - nothing a little fine-paying cannot do - surviving unless in a purge-like move and with strong financiers behind them some of Gibson's younger management buys him out. Remember how he and his business partners paid only five million bucks for floundering Gibson in the mid eighties - I'd think he'd do fine with his investment if he pulled out today.
"But professional wrestling is real." John what exactly are you saying here , I'm confused. It is real right? *major Irony*
...Regardless of how it's being prosecuted, Gibson opened the door by giving the Feds a reason to go after them. That has nothing to do with news networks at either end of the spectrum.
We are not going to turn this into a discussion of Fox News.
As has been pointed out, Henry's political affiliations have been more opportunistic than philosophical. That's the nature of business for all but the most partisan. The easy shot is to make this about politics (especially because Henry has tried to make it so) but it's not. It looks increasingly like Gibson not only broke the law but went out of their way to do so. Regardless of how it's being prosecuted, Gibson opened the door by giving the Feds a reason to go after them. That has nothing to do with news networks at either end of the spectrum.
Agreed. Gibson's behavior (right or wrong) and the facts of this case stand on their own merits. How they are reported in the news is where it becomes political claptrap.
It sure does look like Gibson was breaking the law, or at least gave the FWS sound reason for the raid. On the other hand, I wonder why the company and all the executives named were issued subpoenas for the suspect emails, shipping records, etc. Perhaps the Feds thought the evidence of possible subterfuge on Gibson's part caused them to suspect the company or it's executives might destroy that evidence if served.
Mother Jones was being more than a little hyperbolic; they're the left's equivalent to the Wall Street Journal and Faux News.
My point was not the article itself, it was the DOJ/DOI letter that it linked to.
Interesting to me was that letter specifically denies use of SWAT or similar tactical teams re: Gibson - while this has been the characterization (often with the obligatory Nazi references) and de facto perception by many (an at least equally reactionary version here: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/278379/gibson-raid-much-fret-about-pat-nolan?page=1 ) but also in less obviously political coverage. This made me think that I had, in fact, seen no evidence of SWAT personnel, gear, helmets, flak jackets or weapons beyond standard side arms (all the photos showing the investigation team seem to support DOJ/DOI's assertion), and realize that the only evidence I am aware of are Henry J's assertions (hardly a disinterested source - and, yes, one could say the same for DOJ/DOI) and that of those repeating him. I could be wrong - and am not really arguing that there were no SWAT teams - only that there seems to be a conspicuous lack of evidence beyond hearsay for something that many are throwing around as absolute fact - especially in an age when everyone has instant photo/video capacity - and it is certainly possible I've missed something that would back up Henry's version.
..and I was just addressing Uwe's comment that was obviously informed by the Mother Jones article. Unlike their conservative counterparts, the folks at Mother Jones have a sense of humor and sometimes use their hyperbole jokingly, and I just wanted to make it clear to him that calling Henry the 'darling of the Tea Party' was a half-joke in case he wasn't familiar with the source.
The audience for the "SWAT team" comment is the same people who believe Obama is a muslim socialist hell bent on destroying the country. Facts are immaterial to them.
stumbled onto this related article
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20111008/ARTICLES/111009532?p=1&tc=pg
...The confiscated wood has a value of only 200,000 USD, while that is money too, Gibson probably saws up guitars and basses in excess value every month for not meeting their standards.
it's definitely a manufactured product -- it's been ripped, jointed, planed and trimmed to length in a factory. So it's considered finished goods.
Without having seen the wood that was seized, fretboard blanks are considered a finished product:
(http://www.bellforestproducts.com/core/assets/images/product-headers/fretboard-blanks.jpg)
And sold as such by http://www.bellforestproducts.com/fretboard-blanks/
If this is what Gibson was buying in mass quantities, it looks legal to me.
Oddest thing about all this to me is that anyone considers Indian rosewood and ebony to be top grade or rare woods. Until recently, at least, they weren't considered first rate.
Make sense?
Conspiracy theories are a way of dodging individual responsibility.
your uncle in law is correct, however, anti semitism is on the rise all over europe and has been for several years. father adolf would be proud. :P
People will stop at nothing to avoid individual responsibility.
"It's not my son's fault he drowned in YOUR swimming pool while trespassing at night, it's YOUR fault for having a swimming pool."
Aaaaargh, but that is not why he gets speeding and parking tickets!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I think there is too much inclination to assume that the decision-making is happening at a high level.
The ability of ANY federal agency to decide and act like a horse's ass is well documented, and the inclination of many prosecutors to get a random wild hair up their butt and waste time and money on frivolous and/or unwinnable cases is also well known.
I doubt that the decisions about the Gibson action were made very far up the food chain. It's a lot easier to deal harshly with a guitar maker breaking a fairly obscure 100-year-old law than it is to do something more meaningful like reduce the number of drug shipments or investigate business relationships of big oil companies.
Meanwhile he's openly threatening to send jobs overseas (http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/13/gibson-guitar-ceo-warns-that-jobs-may-be-sent-overseas-in-aftermath-of-doj-raid/). So predictable that you have to wonder whether he's using the raid as a pretext. All over Indian rosewood and ebony? ???
Geez, this all makes my head spin. Why are American law enforcement people trying to enforce the manufacturing/exporting laws of a foreign country?
http://www.ypte.org.uk/environmental/trade-in-endangered-species/25
Geez, this all makes my head spin. Why are American law enforcement people trying to enforce the manufacturing/exporting laws of a foreign country?
Meanwhile he's openly threatening to send jobs overseas (http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/13/gibson-guitar-ceo-warns-that-jobs-may-be-sent-overseas-in-aftermath-of-doj-raid/).
They're not. What they're trying to enforce is a US law, the 2008 expansion of the Lacey Act, which makes it illegal to import a product if another country has banned its export.
The 2008 expansion had broad bipartisan support. The Senate co-sponsor was Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), whose reelection campaign Henry contributed to.
The 2008 expansion had broad bipartisan support. The Senate co-sponsor was Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.), whose reelection campaign Henry contributed to.
You can't live forever on customer service bull pens.
...as evidenced by the USA. Up until the late 1990's, that was the plan here.
India has banned export of rosewood? Geez, how will they survive? You can't live forever on customer service bull pens.
Not a permanent ban, evidently. According to the raid affidavit, they put a moratorium on the export of rosewood and ebony beginning in August 2009 and lasting until sometime in 2014. There's an exception for veneer under 6mm.
Finished products aren't covered. So I suppose the plan is to encourage manufacturing products there.
Interesting. If I can't use Indian rosewood, I'll use whatever is available. Wood is a renewable resource. Sounds like forestry management is lame in India.
Factories and/or manufacturing in the U.S. have been up against increasing regulation and environmental hurdles since the early 70's if not before.
Vilifying companies for moving off shore is only going to take this thread even further down political paths we've agreed to avoid here. This thread is fine as long as it's focusing on Gibson's immediate issues and a small amount of politics is probably unavoidable within that discussion, but let's please leave the rest for other forums where political commentary is allowed or encouraged.
But the politics are part and parcel of the whole shebang. So considering the players, I will wait and see.
Rosewood is a 'trash tree' there, much like Locust here, grown to shade tea plantations. The trees are all harvested when they get to certain age. They're exceedingly well managed; India just knows what it has. There used to be some large international guitar manufacture there (Jackson, pre-Fender) for inexpensive instruments that left for East Asia and has never returned. My guess is that India is trying to bring it back when China's manufacturing costs rise.
Maybe the Lacey Act is just stupid and needs repealing.
that is the question that has bugged me forever. why do the screwees support the screwers. i can find no rational explanation for this and would love a plausible answer.
But the politics are part and parcel of the whole shebang. So considering the players, I will wait and see.
Seriously? What is your basis for this?
The fact that Gibson is claiming it is, and the fact that the Obama admin has a history of doing things in a peculiar way. No angels here. I will wait and see.
What I can't understand is why the crimes committed by Wall Street and the banks aren't considered 'Class Warfare'.
It seems logical to me that if you want to kill the Republican Party at the root and install atheist socialism in America, gay marriage and a totalitarian health insurance aimed at eradicating that most sacred right of man, not to take care of yourself and suffer the consequences without bothering others (Ayn't that the random truth?), then Nashville is the compellingly logical, yes even mandatory place to start. And that vile conservative think tank called Gibson there.
Do you think my strategic proximity to Nashville is an accident? Unfortunately, I keep missing all the conspiracy meetings, so I'm not really in the know as to the next step, though i seem to recall it involved Mexican Snow Les Pauls and Canadian-made Avro Arrow-Firebird X's. Henry J may think he holds the key to the future, but the T800's will take care of him. We await only the orders of our Dear Leader Pelosi to quash freedom and SUV's forever!
"Re the FDR comparison: Whether it is too little or too much, fact is that the current administration has created a regulation density over Wall Street that is the highest since FDR took office and Wall Street to responsibility for the Great Depression.
That is one perceptive remark I have to say. The Carter analogy struck me today when I read about the Iran conspiracy thing. Carter's reaction to Russia's Afghanistan invasion was a grave historical mistake. What he should have done is call the Kremlin and say "Good thing that your commie boys are down there, can we send you gas for your tanks, of course we will have to denounce your imperialist aggression at the UN, but by all means do stay down there, ok?" That way the WTC would still be standing. Talk about collateral damage and you do not even have to believe in conspiracies.
For once it was Henry J himself who dragged politics into a Gibson discussion. :mrgreen:
The fact that Gibson is claiming it is, and the fact that the Obama admin has a history of doing things in a peculiar way. No angels here. I will wait and see.
Are they really that ignorant to send a petition in German to Henry J?
I think they should've considered translating it into English...
Open Letter to Henry J:
"Dear Henry,
mein Name ist Uwe, ich bin innöcent. I haff a fffiew of your feine basses. I did not instigate or condone this. My misled countrymen ... Ostfront all of them! I don't even like Sting either!!!! That peroxied Fenderling wiff hiz squeaky voice ... Please do continue building your instruments for handicapped minorities - basses that is - in whatever shape or form, with nuts cut from the last unicorn horn and Sequoia tops, I do not care, I vill glädly continue to buy them all!!!
Subservient Regards
Uwe
PS: For ze avoidance of doubt, lieber Henry, all open border issues between Poland and Deutschland have long been resolved amicably and juskiewiczly too!!!"
Phew!!!
However, Gibson has complied with Indian law and no concerns have been raised by the Indian government.
I'm no tree hugger but given the option of using a wood that is environmentally less dubious than ebony or rosewood, I'll gladly take a bass with preciosa or baked maple or whatever board.
:rolleyes:
I see Henry's disinformation campaign is still going.
French said America’s grade lumber exports have soared in recent years as overseas suppliers look for hardwood products that can reenter the United States without a problem.
"French said America’s grade lumber exports have soared in recent years as overseas suppliers look for hardwood products that can reenter the United States without a problem."
IMO that's a BAD thing. Historically, Colonies export raw lumber. Nations export value added PRODUCTS which produce a lot more wealth.
Top quality veneer logs have been exported for years from the USA to Japan to be made into products sold back to US consumers among other uses, rock maple also (I just bought 5 MIJ "Fender" necks made of it). Neither Germany or China exports much raw material, they are buyers. They seem to understand the value of the manufacturing sector of their economies, not to mention education in things other than finance and lawyering. Look at the makeup of the US "Economic Panel" for an example of how clueless Washington is.
I would agree with you in that context. But that situation wasn't caused by timber laws. Given that the manufacturing is already over there, strictly in the context of being able to reimport the finished goods without problem, the law has helped.
Now, if we prohibited exporting US woods, some manufacturing would come back here. You know that's not going to happen, though.
Henry keeps talking about Indian wood. Gibson was raided because of accusations that they smuggled gray market wood from Madagascar, not India!
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08/31/140090116/why-gibson-guitar-was-raided-by-the-justice-department
But he said:
"the Indian government certified that the wood was properly and legally exported under this law"