The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: drbassman on March 28, 2013, 07:36:34 AM
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Got the two hooked up today and I am very happy. The amp arrived in perfect condition and married to the new Ampeg PF115HE 15" cab, it sounds great. I didn't always believe you could hear the difference between SS and tube amps, but I believe I can easily discern it in this rig. The real difference I notice with the MM head is the richness of the bass tonality and, interestingly, the speaker seems to be able to handle more volume with less effort/degradation of the sound. The speaker performs better with this amp than with the SS Mesa. The overall sound of the amp is clear and clean at lower volumes. When my wife isn't around I'll crank it and see what happens! She gets rattled when i do that.
I really like the simplicity of the controls. I've never been all that found of 6 knob EQ systems, more hassle than they are worth IMHO. The difference between the "Normal-Bright" and "Normal-Deep" switches is striking and really a nice feature. I can go from really deep and thumpy to crispy and edgy with the flip of one or two switches.
My next experiments will involve playing with variations in the master vs. channel volume controls and mid-treble differences.
Thus far, the sound, power and tone of the amp-speaker combo is just what I had hoped for. We'll see how things sound at our next practice with 2 15" cabs and some real volume. A good report!
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BTW, I used my Hofner Club for the initial test. I'll try a TB next. The Club sounded amazingly clear through this combo. Not boomy at all.
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Sounds promising so far. Then again I'm partial to tube tone.
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Love my 2 MM 130 heads. They even sound good with the matching cabs which were designed for both guitar and bass and are only 12' deep. One on the left is 2 12 and on the right is 15 with reconditioned EVB pro with a 4ohm coil. probably need to upgrade the 12's but both cabs are 4 ohms. The speaker outs on the back are wired in series BTW. also the sound in the bass channel is rather poor compared to the guitar channel and the bass boost is on the master volume so works in either channel. sorry for the blurry picture. recently got some new grillcloth for the 15 cab.
(http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac102/desantisjn/mmamp3.jpg)
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Love those MM RH115s! Kinda curious about the 2 x12 version, which I have never experienced; how do they compare?
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Wow, cool setup. Do you gig with them? In tandem? I haven't tried the guitar channel yet, I was pretty impressed with the bass side. I'll have to give it a try. I can't wait to try mine with two 15s. Thanks for sharing.
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Btw, would you have a copy of a 130 owners manual?
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HD-130 article from VIntageGuitar.com: http://www.vintageguitar.com/12887/music-man-hd-130-reverb/
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usually just gig with one of the amps with the 2 12 cab. plenty of volume for small club/bar type gigs. Even though i love the 115 i feel safer on gigs with the 2 12 knowing it can put out more volume when needed. When i get around to upgrading the speakers IMO the 212 will really rock. I would use them together but any gig with that much stage space is usually an outside show and I end to get power hungry and go with the SVT 7 or Markbass 1200 both of which are stupid loud.
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HD-130 article from VIntageGuitar.com: http://www.vintageguitar.com/12887/music-man-hd-130-reverb/
Funny thing is that in that photo, the two "inside tubes" are GE 6CA7's (only GE's have those type of plate welds) and the outside pair are actual EL34's, probably Mullard manufactured OEM Philips. It shows just how similar the two types are.
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HD-130 article from VIntageGuitar.com: http://www.vintageguitar.com/12887/music-man-hd-130-reverb/
Cool review,thanks Al. The tone on this amp is amazing and the price is a real bargain IMO.
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The way you guys swap amps and cabs, I don't know whether to be happy or sad that I'm settled on my Genz Shuttle 6.0.
But every time I pick it up and move it, I'm reminded of just how happy with it I really am!
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The way you guys swap amps and cabs, I don't know whether to be happy or sad that I'm settled on my Genz Shuttle 6.0.
But every time I pick it up and move it, I'm reminded of just how happy with it I really am!
Gotta admit I'm pretty darn happy with my Genz Shuttle too. I'm using the Avatar 2 12 and tweeter cab but it's only around 50 lbs. I don't feel like I made any comprises with either choice, I'm just happy ;D.
Rick
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The way you guys swap amps and cabs, I don't know whether to be happy or sad that I'm settled on my Genz Shuttle 6.0.
But every time I pick it up and move it, I'm reminded of just how happy with it I really am!
That's why I only play at our cafe. No moving! Anyway, I am always looking for something to get into and tube amps had to happen eventually. I am looking for a new, or old, tone/sound and this is a fun experiment. I still love my Mesa Walkabout, a super hybrid amp. Will always have that as an alternative.
Say, how were the old original Fender Bassman heads? Would it be worth trying one of those?
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Say, how were the old original Fender Bassman heads? Would it be worth trying one of those?
I have a '67 sitting upstairs - had it since it was a couple of months old.
They're certainly loud for their power range, but anything above about 40% gain and you get into distortion territory, even having had it re-capped. I like the sound, but (perhaps I have a tin ear) I can't claim that I've found it compelling enough to want a more powerful tube head.
I use it mainly for practice, because it has two inputs (low and high) so I can input my bass on one channel and the output of my computer into another.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/Electric%20Basses/Amps-Speakers/IMAG0167.jpg)
In that photo it's sitting on top of my early 80's Bassman 120 amp, a solid state combo with a single 15" speaker. I have played an outdoor gig with that 120 combo and it was dimed - made it through two hours, and I smelled ozone when i got close to it. But it made it through just fine.
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Say, how were the old original Fender Bassman heads? Would it be worth trying one of those?
You're asking kind of a loaded question. There are many flavors of old Bassmans; the design changed tremendously in its history. The original 4x10 Bassman combo is one of the most coveted guitar amps of all time, but it's not much for bass unless you like Lemmy tone at low volume. The later "Blackface" era amps were revoiced with less midrange and came as separate amp/cabinet combinations, but still lacked any meaningful power.
It wasn't until the 70's, under CBS's ownership, that the Bassman 100 and 130, Studio Bass, 400PS and 300PS that Fender actually made a "bass" amp (Showman doesn't count; it was a multi-purpose amp) that bass players could use. Before the vintage craze went retarded for ANYTHING pre-70's, you could pick up Blackface Bassman heads all day long for $200-250 just because they aren't really good for anything outside of studio, and even then, there are MUCH better tonal options. Unfortunately, they also applied the same design philosphy to their guitar amps and guitarists bought the lions share of gear and guitarists who had discovered distortion weren't interested in more clean power. Your Music Man HD130 was borne out of the same philosophy, but is a better design than its contemporary Fender counterpart, the Bassman 130.
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Yeah, I vaguely knew about the love of the original 59 by guitarists. As for the separate heads, I didn't know much about them as I played through a b15 for years before going to a stronger SVT rig for larger venues. I was just curious as I am thinking it would be fun to experiment with tube amps for the cafe gigs and at home.
I was watching a Sunn 200s on eBay and I do recall folks liking them.
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usually just gig with one of the amps with the 2 12 cab. plenty of volume for small club/bar type gigs. Even though i love the 115 i feel safer on gigs with the 2 12 knowing it can put out more volume when needed. When i get around to upgrading the speakers IMO the 212 will really rock.
So what are the speakers in there, some basic Eminence-style stamped frame jobies? That's what was in my 115 when I bought it, but it had obviously been tampered with a bit so not sure if stock (it really shines with a better driver - super clean and big lows once you replace that square magnet Eminence which just breaks up early; more of a guitar driver).
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Music Man cabinets shipped stock with 65 watt Eminence speakers, regardless of size, and were stamp framed with large Music Man logos on the back covers. Magnet composition varied with vintage and Electro Voice drivers were offered as OEM upgrades. Those are usually the cabinets that have survived without speaker replacement.
ceramic magnet speakers
(http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/musicman-212-hd-one-fifty-273911.jpg)
alnico magnet speakers
(http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/musicman-hd212-one-thirty-46219.jpg)
The first "tube" bass amp I ever heard was a 60's Jazz Bass through an HD130 with an HD115 equipped with an EVM 15;" it was gorgeous: fat, deep, round and present without any of the biting upper mids that EVM's can produce. The guitar player, the bass player's brother, had a 112-65 combo with a Strat.
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i had a very old supro tube amp with one eight inch speaker. not bad at all to learn on.
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that is how i would describe my hd130 with the Ev15. The 2 12 is the stock speakers i am pretty sure....I have a couple of Deltas looking for a home.
I also had a supro but a thunderbolt 15 as my first learning amp. And my wife convinced me to through it out in the garbage in around 1989 . Of course i learned page used it for first album about a year or so after. Maybe the last time i have listened to her to just keep the peace......
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one more thing you need to remember. the speaker outs are series. Meaning if you plug 2 - 8 ohm cabs you must daisy chain them and set the amp to 4 ohm. Do not plug each of them into the amp as that would need a 16 ohm setting
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Got the two hooked up today and I am very happy. The amp arrived in perfect condition and married to the new Ampeg PF115HE 15" cab, it sounds great.
Thus far, the sound, power and tone of the amp-speaker combo is just what I had hoped for. We'll see how things sound at our next practice with 2 15" cabs and some real volume. A good report!
Glad you like your PF cab - they seem to handle just about anything you throw at them. I usually run a pair of them either with the PF500 head, or sometimes I'll use an Oliver PA100XR tube head. I ported the second cab to open the low end up just a bit more, and I also added side mounted speakon jacks and vintage B18 style chrome handles to both cabs. Snapped this picture before I had them installed on the ported cab.
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20PF115HE%20Mods/portaflex500-mods022.jpg)(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20PF115HE%20Mods/portaflex500-mods023.jpg)
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Thanks Jim, good advice! Wish I had kept my 63 CAR j bass, too! I will hook the speakers together as instructed.
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Glad you like your PF cab - they seem to handle just about anything you throw at them. I usually run a pair of them either with the PF500 head, or sometimes I'll use an Oliver PA100XR tube head. I ported the second cab to open the low end up just a bit more, and I also added side mounted speakon jacks and vintage B18 style chrome handles to both cabs. Snapped this picture before I had them installed on the ported cab.
Nice looking rig! I am very impressed with the PR cab for the money. Can't wait to hook up my mess of stuff on Monday at practice. Should be great fun! So, did porting the cab affect volume or create any distortion issues? Just curious.
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Porting the cab increased the volume and low end, with no distortion or rattles and it sounds closer to my B-100R now. I used stock BA115/B-100R port flanges and tubes from Ampeg, and placed them in the same locations so it looks factory.
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20PF115HE%20Mods/porting-pf115he016.jpg)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20PF115HE%20Mods/porting-pf115he022.jpg)
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I was thinking of getting one and taking out the horn and use that as a port. I know I also have to make the speaker full range. Ahy thoughts from the technical side???
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Since the internal crossover is still engaged even when the horn is switched off, I installed a speakon connector on the side of the cab (as a nod to the old B15's) and wired it directly to the 15" driver. This way I have the option to use either the 15" full range, or use the jack panel and use the horn/15 combo if I want to. If you remove the horn and use the cut out as a port, there is also equal room below it on the baffle should you ever want to cut out a second port.
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20PF115HE%20Mods/portaflex500-mods004.jpg)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20PF115HE%20Mods/portaflex500-mods003.jpg)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20PF115HE%20Mods/portaflex500-mods027.jpg)
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I have a MM HD 130 great amp my old guitar player gave it to me ( His wife got pissed at him and threw it out a second floor window it hit the lawn and it still worked ) just had it gone over with new tubes.
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Just made a deal on 2 Ampeg Pf15HE cabs thanks to this thread GAS. should get them in a few days. will have to see how i like them but really thinking one cab needs to be ported for some extra umph. Will try the horn out and no other holes and see if that is enough or if a second port is needed. Hope it works out so i can change back when i come to my senses and realize a sealed cab is deep enough. i have a feeling it will be fine with my V4 and MM but will not be right with my SS amps.... BURP!!!!
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Wow, interesting mods. I'll have to give it some thought. I played the MM amp and Ampeg PF115 at practice last night and it sounded great. My bandmates loved the sound and it was a definite improvement over the 12" Mesa cab and amp. A lot more depth and bass. The speaker handled everything I gave it at high volumes and didn't fuzz out on me at all. I can't believe the quality of this cab for the money. It may not be top of the line but it does perform really well. Hooked up with the Mesa 15" cab made for really nice sounding rig. Although it looks like a mutt, nothing matches!
The amp was super as well. The tone is so close to my old tube Ampegs (when I was a kid). It was really fun to turn up the gain and introduce some old time distortion and play around with that sound. I had the master vol at 7 and the gain (channel vol) at 2 and the tone was just perfect. I am so pleased with the new sound/tone I've getting. I should have listened to you tube amp fans a long time ago.
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Just made a deal on 2 Ampeg Pf15HE cabs thanks to this thread GAS. should get them in a few days. will have to see how i like them but really thinking one cab needs to be ported for some extra umph. Will try the horn out and no other holes and see if that is enough or if a second port is needed. Hope it works out so i can change back when i come to my senses and realize a sealed cab is deep enough. i have a feeling it will be fine with my V4 and MM but will not be right with my SS amps.... BURP!!!!
The cabs sound really good for being sealed boxes, and go much lower than a vintage double baffle B15 cab. I probably wouldn't have tried porting it except for the fact I A/B'd it against my B-100R, and the B-100R with it's rear ports just seemed to fill the room with more umpff or "booty" than the PF. Not everyone wants that extra low end, and I can see why Ampeg went with the sealed design. When I run my stack, I usually run the top (sealed) cab with the horn in the middle position, and run the ported cab full range. Gives just enough extra lows without being overbearing.
Here's a link to a thread over at TB that covers all the mods I did, along with mods that other PF owners have done as well, such as adding the vintage kick stand and dog bone handles: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/ampeg-portaflex-pf115he-mods-866811/
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Wow, interesting mods. I'll have to give it some thought. I played the MM amp and Ampeg PF115 at practice last night and it sounded great. My bandmates loved the sound and it was a definite improvement over the 12" Mesa cab and amp. A lot more depth and bass. The speaker handled everything I gave it at high volumes and didn't fuzz out on me at all. I can't believe the quality of this cab for the money.
For the money, it's a nice piece of gear- and I think they did a good job of combining elements of the classic B15 cab with features of the '60's solid state BT15 cabs for a modern interpretation of the flip top design.
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For the money, it's a nice piece of gear- and I think they did a good job of combining elements of the classic B15 cab with features of the '60's solid state BT15 cabs for a modern interpretation of the flip top design.
Where did you get the Ampeg ports? Or are they third party?
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I ordered them directly from the Ampeg/LOUD parts department: Tel: +1 866 858 LTEC (866 858 5832)
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Well, here she is, all set up. What a motley looking rig! But, in her defense, she sounds great and my bandmates love it. Me too! I still can't believe how I can drive that cheapo Ampeg speaker, but it handles everything I throw at it. The volume is perfect for a small club. The tone, and touch of overdrive, takes me back 40 years to my youth. I love it. I might switch the cabs and put the Mesa on top, but with the passive radiator in the bottom, I don't know how that might alter my tone/volume. I might also try putting on on the floor, side by side to see how it does.
Either way, it's a winner!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Misc%20Stuff/DSCN0947_zps446f387d.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/Misc%20Stuff/DSCN0947_zps446f387d.jpg.html)
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Wish I could find one of those heads. I'd love to try one out.
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Wish I could find one of those heads. I'd love to try one out.
Yeah, if you could get it reasonably priced like I did, it's a good one. This thing is in such great shape, it looks like it never traveled. Maybe it just sat in a studio somewhere. Who knows!?
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I bet this sounds pretty good:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/In-Store-Vintage-VINTAGE-MUSIC-MAN-HD130-STACK-108663625-i2970874.gc
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I bet this sounds pretty good:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/In-Store-Vintage-VINTAGE-MUSIC-MAN-HD130-STACK-108663625-i2970874.gc
Wow, that's sweet looking! I wonder what speakers are in it?
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Here's what Psycho Bass Guy said about their speakers: Music Man amps do indeed have series-wired extension jacks. Their 70's endorsers were mostly paid spokepeople brought to post-Fender fold. Clapton famously used stacks of them... unloaded with his old Bluesbreaker hidden backstage. The HD-130 makes for an excellent bass amp, but their cabinets were ported and used low-wattage drivers, so lots of them ended up blown.
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standard were cts , some came with ev upgrade. My 115H came with the ev but needed a recone. had it upgraded to the 400 watts pro specks and 4 ohm coil. sounds great and handles my fender super twin 180 watt head pretty well. my other 212 cab needs some attention as the speakers get a littlebarking at high volumes. I assume they are the cts squarebacks but haven't opened it up yet. for a reference point i got the more beat up looking but actually better internal condition from GC for about $550 about a year ago with the 115H cab. Paid about $400 for the other head off feebay (needed some minor work and power tubes), and about $250 for the 212 cab off TB from a somewhat local guy. there are decent deals on the MM amps if you look around.
DR try the guitar channel. It is much better....and the deep switch , which i seldom use, is on the master circuit so works for both
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standard were cts , some came with ev upgrade. My 115H came with the ev but needed a recone. had it upgraded to the 400 watts pro specks and 4 ohm coil. sounds great and handles my fender super twin 180 watt head pretty well. my other 212 cab needs some attention as the speakers get a littlebarking at high volumes. I assume they are the cts squarebacks but haven't opened it up yet. for a reference point i got the more beat up looking but actually better internal condition from GC for about $550 about a year ago with the 115H cab. Paid about $400 for the other head off feebay (needed some minor work and power tubes), and about $250 for the 212 cab off TB from a somewhat local guy. there are decent deals on the MM amps if you look around.
DR try the guitar channel. It is much better....and the deep switch , which i seldom use, is on the master circuit so works for both
OK< I will try the guitar channel. I remember you said that before and I didn't think of it at practice this week. I'll give it a shot and report back!
As for speaker cabs with my HD 130, if I needed more, I'd feel comfortable with Ampeg cabs.
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I bet this sounds pretty good:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/In-Store-Vintage-VINTAGE-MUSIC-MAN-HD130-STACK-108663625-i2970874.gc
I checked up on this rig and it's 50 minutes away from me in Buffalo. I just might go and take a look at it.
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I'd totally take one of thiose 115RHes off your hands if you got it and didn't want both cabs.
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I'd totally take one of thiose 115RHes off your hands if you got it and didn't want both cabs.
Cool. I'm going to call them in a bit and see if they will deal on it.
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I have a meeting in Buffalo on Friday next week, I'm going to swing by and check it out then.
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DR try the guitar channel. It is much better....and the deep switch , which i seldom use, is on the master circuit so works for both
Hey Jim, you are right, the guitar channel is really sweet sounding. I was surprised. With exactly the same settings, the guitar channel is cleaner but doesn't de-emphasize the low and mid ranges. It's just cleaner/clearer and that helps when playing a hollow body with flats on it! I'll stick with this channel for the next gig. Thanks for the hint.
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Scott got to hear the Musicman/Ampeg/Mesa rig last night at a gig. I think he liked it! I sure did. My first gig with it and it filled the room with a really nice full bass sound, warm and vintage! I'm hooked on those tubes now.
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The Musicaman really did sound great! First thing I noticed when I walked in the room. Bill's band is three piece with vox so the bass has a big job to do. The room looks like it might hold 100 or so to code, there were about 30- 40 when I got there last night. Sound was sound on a stick looked like 12s with horns. Nice mix out front, folks dancing and having a good time. with no help from the PA the MM sounded great warm, full with just enough grit and character. More importantly it filled the room, the band didn't sound empty at all nice and full. It was great to see/hear Bill play I was more than impressed. A side note the singer and I went to college together over 30 years ago! Bill had posted a pic of his band and i said hey wait a minuet that's Julio! So it was great to see and hear him as well. All in all a fun night And I look forward to the next invite. Oh ! Btw Bill was playing his black Gretsch single cutaway shorty, man what a great sounding bass! It's giving me a bad case of GAS at the moment.
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And Scott's vintage NR bass sounded great through the amp too. He did some jamming at the end and it was all good!
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Hey Jim, you are right, the guitar channel is really sweet sounding. I was surprised. With exactly the same settings, the guitar channel is cleaner but doesn't de-emphasize the low and mid ranges. It's just cleaner/clearer and that helps when playing a hollow body with flats on it! I'll stick with this channel for the next gig. Thanks for the hint.
my tech told me to try it. for some reason they put stuff on the bass side or left stuff out. can't remember - chemo brain.. enjoy ;D
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my tech told me to try it. for some reason they put stuff on the bass side or left stuff out. can't remember - chemo brain.. enjoy ;D
Yeah, I hear ya, I still have chemo brain even after 9 months off the stuff. My wife says the excuse is wearing thin! But I don't listen to her.
I hope you're doing we'll with the treatments. Are you working while taking them?
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actually got laid off on dec 14 so timing was great or really bad depending on your perspective and what you are looking at on an individual item/reason basis. Medical and severance run thru june 14 so all the treatments will be covered. just the follow up stuff will be my headache. starting to talk to folks about a job sometime late in June however. i got 2 in college, one in private school. and a huge mortgage.... probably need to work about 6 more years then move to cheaper easier place to live.
Today was hump day. treatment 17 , 16 to go. Believe it or not the radiation is much worse than the chemo overall. Mouth and throat is pretty much like a thousand razor cuts.....Down to soups, very loose eggs and milkshakes/smoothies. and some good prescription drugs which i have resisted so far except to sleep a few days last week. Great news is the Doctor looked in my mouth last week and said it has reacted great and shrunk more than he expected so everyday that precious healing percentage we all hang on feels like it is moving up to what I expect for me at least of 100%.....
"gettin better every day"
Jim
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Positive news, Jim.
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Thanks for the update, Jim. Hang in there, half way done is a good place to be . Hope the job thing works out. I am retiring and I just got a couple offers for part time work. Who knew? Good luck and prayers!
Bill
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I'd totally take one of thiose 115RHes off your hands if you got it and didn't want both cabs.
I have to go to buffalo tomorrow for a meeting and will check out the rig.
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love my 115rh but has a newly reconed 4 ohm EV 400 watt pro in it so it probably sounds nothing like the originals did. this came with the cone ripped so can't say.
Have one of my 130's over a 15" cab loaded with a neo eminence? . - the one everyone raves about. just ok but nice and light and fine for reherasal space.
the 115RH been using it lately around the house under a 1976 fender super twin head. 180 watts of pure fender cleanness. what a sh#tty guitar amp but makes a great bass amp. great with passive basses. think of the old black face amps nugent used....
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Sounds good Jim. I played the rig today and I want it, but they won't deal on it. So, I gotta think about it.
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Last night was a quick post, so here's my assessment. The rig is nice and in really pristine condition. Whoever owned it, took really good care of it. I'm going to go back next week and see if they will deal on it. As far as I could tell it was all original. I could see a silver center on the speaker cones. Was that typical for speakers in this rig?
The tone and output of the rig is perfect for my needs. Lots of volume and that old time vintage sound. Actually a little cleaner than my current set up, but I'm sure that's due to the different speakers and maybe the tubes (newer ones) in the rig.
So yeah, I want it and I'm going to do my best to snag it. Stay tuned.
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Did the silver dust cap have a black dot in the center? If so, then it's probably an Eminence. Sans dot - JBL, Altec, EV, from my experience.
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Did the silver dust cap have a black dot in the center? If so, then it's probably an Eminence. Sans dot - JBL, Altec, EV, from my experience.
I couldnt tell. But when I go back next week I want to see the speakers without the grill cloth on. Then I'll know more. If they aren't vintage, I have more bargaining power.
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As far as I could tell it was all original. I could see a silver center on the speaker cones. Was that typical for speakers in this rig?
I don't know, but for older gear, that silver dust cap should be an indication of the JBL D-130 or 140 series...for bass, the 140's. I don't have the expertise to know much about other brands that used similar dust caps.
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Did the silver dust cap have a black dot in the center? If so, then it's probably an Eminence. Sans dot - JBL, Altec, EV, from my experience.
my 115 had a silver cone ev in it.. IIRC that was the upgrade MM offered. needed to be reconed anyway as it was kinda toasted. sounds great now and ungraded to 4 ohm 400 watt.
open cab versus the sealed ampeg may attribute alot to the cleaner sound
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I don't know, but for older gear, that silver dust cap should be an indication of the JBL D-130 or 140 series...for bass, the 140's. I don't have the expertise to know much about other brands that used similar dust caps.
1971 Eminence in my Oliver P-500
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/OLIVER%20P-500/P1040083_zps989e4ab8.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/B-15N/OLIVER%20P-500/P1040083_zps989e4ab8.jpg.html)
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/B-15N/OLIVER%20P-500/P1040106_zpsa533f56c.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/B-15N/OLIVER%20P-500/P1040106_zpsa533f56c.jpg.html)
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come to think of it i had an acoustic 404 cab with a silver cap CTS in it. so we are no real help here. sorry
but i do know the standard speaker was CTS and upgrade was the EV.. anything else would be aftermarket
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come to think of it i had an acoustic 404 cab with a silver cap CTS in it. so we are no real help here. sorry
but i do know the standard speaker was CTS and upgrade was the EV.. anything else would be aftermarket
Thanks, this helps. Do you know if the grill cloth comes off from the front or am I in for a hassle if we have to approach it from the back?
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grill pops out just bring a very thin flat head or tool to avoid damaging the side of the grill.. velcro type holder and will be tight in the corners where the metal ends are
my 115 has 2 small side by side inputs in the back. you might ask them the let you pop them out and loom in with aflashlight to see the magnet....
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grill pops out just bring a very thin flat head or tool to avoid damaging the side of the grill.. velcro type holder and will be tight in the corners where the metal ends are
my 115 has 2 small side by side inputs in the back. you might ask them the let you pop them out and loom in with aflashlight to see the magnet....
Great, thanks!
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grill pops out just bring a very thin flat head or tool to avoid damaging the side of the grill.. velcro type holder and will be tight in the corners where the metal ends are
my 115 has 2 small side by side inputs in the back. you might ask them the let you pop them out and loom in with aflashlight to see the magnet....
Yep - mine too (re the grille). The first thing I do with any cab I get is to take the grille off and staple a piece of nylon webbing onto the back of the frame to use as a pull tab to get it off again in the future.... otherwise you just end up dinging up the tolex trying to pry it out (if you do that frequently , Like I do to try various speakers and generally tinker in there; the grille fit on my 115RH is particularly tight; real pain to get out, much more so than any other cab I have/had).
I don't think the jack peek idea is a good one. You'll loose the jack in the cab and won't see much if anything - I may be wrong, but IIRC, there's no jack plate to unscrew just jacks in the wood..... could be wrong though... [google, google] ah, not a plate, but one of them cups like on an old Tele - best not to mess with those IMHO). The best way to look inside the 115RH is to remove the speaker (no need to desolder, just unmount and look inside). If you just take a pic of the cone with the grille off however, we will probably, between the lot of us, be able to tell you what it is, or narrow it down considerably anyway.
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mine has two tele like plates that popped right out. just installed with wood pressure no bracket.
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Yeah exactly, but take them out one too many times and they stop staying in place (just like old Teles, except they had a little retention clip vs these which don't).
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Yeah exactly, but take them out one too many times and they stop staying in place.
When they do, it's an easy fix. But I'm sure you know that.
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Yeah, but
(http://media.tumblr.com/fe04e7c18e405b366422c6ff85558afa/tumblr_inline_ml3l6ub3Z11qz4rgp.jpg)
Least of all the seller.
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Yeah exactly, but take them out one too many times and they stop staying in place (just like old Teles, except they had a little retention clip vs these which don't).
guys i was only saying to take them out once so he knows whats in there in case they will not let him open it up to see. not like GC is run by people that have a clue....
i would probably replace then anyway as they are already almost 40 years old and are probably loose already... mine is somewhat iffy and is overdue for a good plate and new jack anyway...
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guys i was only saying to take them out once so he knows whats in there in case they will not let him open it up to see. not like GC is run by people that have a clue....
i would probably replace then anyway as they are already almost 40 years old and are probably loose already... mine is somewhat iffy and is overdue for a good plate and new jack anyway...
Silicone seal, contact cement or superglue gel will all do the job on loose jack cups in speaker cabs. Superglue gel is the easiest, fastest and least messy.
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love my 115rh but has a newly reconed 4 ohm EV 400 watt pro in it so it probably sounds nothing like the
the 115RH been using it lately around the house under a 1976 fender super twin head. 180 watts of pure fender cleanness. what a sh#tty guitar amp but makes a great bass amp. great with passive basses. think of the old black face amps nugent used....
Super Twin= guitar head version of the Studio Bass
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Well, I'm free today and might hit the Guitar Center and pick up the MM 130 and cabs. I just love the sound I'm getting out of the first one I got. It would be cool to have the full all matching stack instead of the cobbled together unit I have now. Sure is tempting.
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Go for it!
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Super Twin= guitar head version of the Studio Bass
I know plus the useless distortion channel. Maybe the worst i ever heard. but the foot swithable extra eq is a nice feature. Also for some reason the studio bass was a 8 ohmn versus the 4 ohm on the guitar version. I will not get technical on why or how or if it makes a difference because i don't know....
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Go for it!
I couldn't get everything done Friday, so next Friday I'll be in town for a meeting and check it out then.
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I know plus the useless distortion channel. Maybe the worst i ever heard. but the foot swithable extra eq is a nice feature. Also for some reason the studio bass was a 8 ohmn versus the 4 ohm on the guitar version. I will not get technical on why or how or if it makes a difference because i don't know....
If they used the same OT, which I'm sure they did, Fender probably just left the 4 ohm tap unconnected in the Studio bass to discourage trying to use it in a stack. BTW, the Super Twin's distortion channel is only slightly worse than the Ampeg V-9's, which sounds like a REALLY weak fuzz pedal, but gets helped out by having better overall EQ. The V9's distortion is pointless anyway. By the time you turn it up enough to get any volume out of it, the "clean" channel has more grunt, grind, AND volume.
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Got it, more to follow!
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Now you are just being selfish :mrgreen:
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score!!!
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It's got one replacement speaker and one might be original. I'll pull them this weekend and post pics for discussion/input. So far, they sound great except one cab has an audible rattle whenever I play a G, low or high. Guess I found its resonant frequency! Or the speaker has a flaw. We'll see.
The condition for a 40 year old unit is really good, very few nicks and just a little rust on one handle. Taking it to practice on Wednesday.
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It's got one replacement speaker and one might be original. I'll pull them this weekend and post pics for discussion/input. So far, they sound great except one cab has an audible rattle whenever I play a G, low or high. Guess I found its resonant frequency! Or the speaker has a flaw. We'll see.
Tracking down frequency rattles can be very challenging. Loctite has a product that is great, use it on every screw and bolt in the cabinet, inside and out. Little rubber washers can do wonders too. Every piece of sound equipment I have ever open up is loaded with Loctite and has a rubber washer any place I can use one.
Rick
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remember to check the ohms of the individual cabs . stock shoud be 8.. and the head speaker out is series so you would need to go cab to cab and 4 ohm setting. both into head would be 16 ohm which is not one of the choices.
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Tracking down frequency rattles can be very challenging. Loctite has a product that is great, use it on every screw and bolt in the cabinet, inside and out. Little rubber washers can do wonders too. Every piece of sound equipment I have ever open up is loaded with Loctite and has a rubber washer any place I can use one.
Rick
Great idea, will try that.
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remember to check the ohms of the individual cabs . stock shoud be 8.. and the head speaker out is series so you would need to go cab to cab and 4 ohm setting. both into head would be 16 ohm which is not one of the choices.
Will do Jim. I'll post some pics too when I have a chance.
Hope all is well with you!
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Here are the particulars. First, the head and cabs are in 7.5/10 condition. A few scuffs here and there, some added casters, a couple lightly chipped knobs. Looks like new tubes in the head, Ruby brand, not familiar to me.
We popped the grills off at the store and it was obvious one was probably a replacement and one maybe original. The sales guys didn't know squat. The new speaker gave me some bargaining room. One cab has a massive JBL, looks really new, cast iron frame weighs a ton. 8 ohm. The other has a square mag speaker, based on the mag and rust, I'm guessing original speaker. Don't know how to read the serial number. The grill cloths are clean and undamaged.
This rig sounds really sweet and was a great deal, especially considering its condition and 40 years old. Can't wait to test drive it at practice! I'm very happy with it.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN1006_zps745ff944.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN1006_zps745ff944.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN1007_zps9c5ac96c.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN1007_zps9c5ac96c.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN1008_zps1bb79a96.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN1008_zps1bb79a96.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN1010_zpsd85654ed.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN1010_zpsd85654ed.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN1011_zps4bd39ee9.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN1011_zps4bd39ee9.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN1012_zps0d3935f3.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN1012_zps0d3935f3.jpg.html)
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Nice! I have Rubies in my B-15, no problems with them. The stock speaker is a CTS, IIRC "7718" is 1977 18th week.
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Nice! I have Rubies in my B-15, no problems with them. The stock speaker is a CTS, IIRC "7718" is 1977 18th week.
Ah, cool. So not quite 40 years old. But in great condition.
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JBL 140 is a great speaker. If in good working order its worth good money but IMO i would keep that one and upgrade the other.
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The JBL is a great speaker, worth a few $$$. The other one is an Eminence. 67 is their EIA code. 7718 is the 18th week of 1977, as already mentioned.
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Good score with the JBL! I find the stock Eminence better suited to guitar duties (these rigs were designed for guitar /bass usage), though it might be OK in combination with the JBL, depending on what sort of thing you're doing.
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The JBL is the bass (K) version of the infamous D-140. It's a pretty valuable driver.
Ruby is a testing/grading brand for mostly Chinese-produced tubes, like Groove Tubes, only without the bullshit. They're probably 100% Chinese now but I have seen a few Eastern European and Russian-made tubes that were Ruby-rebranded years ago. They're the house brand of Magic Parts, and probably one of the few large tube marketers whose tube matching data actually means anything.
China is making a couple of modern 6-CA7/EL-34's that would be ideal for a Music Man, and yours looks like it has one of those types, what I have seen sold as the "EL-34B." I always meant to try some in my Traynor, but I have so many old GE, Sovtek, and EI 6CA7's that I really can't justify buying them just to try in my small gigging amp.
Congrats on the score.
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Nice thread, I have a MusicMan HD130 with one 115RH and one 212RH as my main rig.
Now, I´d be careful to unleash full throttle into those ruby´s. At full power (130W - but I´ve seen them put out about 150w at idle) you´d really push the limits on those. I´ve had quite a few of these in my repair shop over the years, and remember they are designed for the U.S. 6CA7 tube - of course a similar tube electronically, but can withstand higher voltage and is a far better considering heat dissipation. Sovtek´s and cheap Chinese EL34´s, as already mentioned, may melt down and cause damage to the amp. They will do fine on the ´lo´setting of course, and do well in many amps including the B-15 or any amp without 7-800 volts pounding that poor anode..
The only EL34 tube I´ve seen work with full power in a MM HD130 over time is the Svetlana Winged ´C´.
I did have a unit into which I put a set of JJ´s (some EL34 special) that reportedly still works nicely, but I´m still stuck with my recommendations. And if you have the tube driver model, get a decent 12AX7/ECC83 each time you change tubes. They work hard as well!
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I've had MUCH better luck with cheapire Sovtek power tubes than Svetlana/Flying C. My Traynor cooked a very early pair of Svet EL34's, (they were properly biased, too) which I replaced with 90's Sovtek 6CA7's and they've held up fine. GE's and later Philips' 6CA7 isn't any better those. Ei made them for awhile as well. They're hard to find, but good. My experience with SVT's and their 6550's has been identical. Svetlana developed quite a reputation that they did not deserve. IMO, most of their big fans were either their distributors or techs who biased for idle current and never bothered to measure that the amps were only putting out 75-80% of rated power.
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I've had MUCH better luck with cheapire Sovtek power tubes than Svetlana/Flying C. My Traynor cooked a very early pair of Svet EL34's, (they were properly biased, too) which I replaced with 90's Sovtek 6CA7's and they've held up fine. GE's and later Philips' 6CA7 isn't any better those. Ei made them for awhile as well. They're hard to find, but good. My experience with SVT's and their 6550's has been identical. Svetlana developed quite a reputation that they did not deserve. IMO, most of their big fans were either their distributors or techs who biased for idle current and never bothered to measure that the amps were only putting out 75-80% of rated power.
Hi!
I am only referring to my own experience as a tech, and although big fan of winged 'c' (not the U.S. Svetlana's), I am not trying to sell
anything or put sovtek out of business, but many MusicMen passing through me have had problems because of tube failure. The electro harmonics (sovtek) and various tubes selected by TAD is very often the cheapest you can buy in music stores here in scandinavia, and therefore what musicians buy. One problem, of course, is that a musician often pulls out worn 6CA7's and install new 'bettter' EL34's without checking the
bias. Most of the HD130/65's I've had here with tube drivers, also had old american 12AX7 - suggesting this was never replaced.
And, not everyone can hear that an amp is due to be serviced, thats for sure - no tube lasts forever. My bottom line, although you may be of the opinion that the Winged 'C' put out less power, when I measure amps (and tubes) after years of useage, they show very little wear in compearance to cheaper tubes.
Be aware that I'm new to this corner of the outpost forum, I do not visit these pages as a tech - but as a bass player. I do not spend much time
on the internet, but like the relaxed but very informative gibson pages. I don't visit talkbass and such forums, neither do I read tech forums.
Since yesterday, I've read through the amps section here, and I can see that you are a skilled amp-factsman. Now, I couldn't help chipping in on this thread, as I play a musicman stack myself -and although being an all tube lover - have special feelings for these amps. I have also worked on many MM's. If I get too technical in my replies here, feel free to moderate me - I'm here for gibby amusement, not work :)
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I am only referring to my own experience as a tech, and although big fan of winged 'c' (not the U.S. Svetlana's), I am not trying to sell anything or put sovtek out of business, but many MusicMen passing through me have had problems because of tube failure.
I'm sorry if it came off that way. That wasn't what I meant. I had no idea of your location, so that in itself is a huge qualifier as to our differing views. Svetlana had a separate Northeastern Europe distributor with a Russian contact at the factory that got better tubes than what was available in the US. I tried to order from them a few times, but they never replied to any of my inquires. They had a couple of models that were even completely unavailable at all in the US like the Svetlana EL509 II, which I would LOVE to get ahold of. "Svetlana," the US-based distributor, was corporately headquartered out of Birmingham, Alabama, and they're the ones who made the mess out of the trademark that ultimately led to the whole Flying C confusion and their QC was horrid. The only thing they got right was sending out tons of samples to guitar magazines and letting Eric Barbour promote the hell out them to hi-fi snobs.
The electro harmonics (sovtek) and various tubes selected by TAD is very often the cheapest you can buy in music stores here in scandinavia, and therefore what musicians buy.
TAD has a very good reputation in the US, but I don't have any personal experience with them since I stopped doing repairs before they hit the market. I have more than enough NOS RCA 6L6GC's that I shouldn't ever need them anyway and I prefer Ruby for their EL-34B's and pretty much any big bottled 6CA7. Sovtek stopped making those 15-20 years ago and the set I got about ten years ago was NOS at the time and came in a turqoise and white Sovtek box. Its construction is identical to the GE 6CA7 except for the crimps on the plate welds.
One problem, of course, is that a musician often pulls out worn 6CA7's and install new 'bettter' EL34's without checking the
bias. Most of the HD130/65's I've had here with tube drivers, also had old american 12AX7 - suggesting this was never replaced.
And, not everyone can hear that an amp is due to be serviced, thats for sure - no tube lasts forever.
Agreed and 90% of most amp problems are just musicians messing in things they shouldn't and trying to save a buck that ends up costing them ten times more in the long run.
My bottom line, although you may be of the opinion that the Winged 'C' put out less power, when I measure amps (and tubes) after years of useage, they show very little wear in compearance to cheaper tubes.
Of course they're going to be longer lived; they have to be biased well below rated power to keep from cherrying. The bottom line with Svetlana/Flying C is that almost none of their power tubes actually meet their published data sheet specs for output power. They'll handle plenty of voltage biased cold, but what's the point?
Be aware that I'm new to this corner of the outpost forum, I do not visit these pages as a tech - but as a bass player. I do not spend much time
on the internet, but like the relaxed but very informative gibson pages.
I try to keep things informal and somewhat relaxed, but I do like to make a huge point of making sure that tech comments are put into the proper context because there is so much hype/misinformation/outright bullshit about amps on the internet. You HAVE experience working on amps using the tubes that you're talking about. That is, BY FAR, the exception rather than the rule on bass forums. I welcome your input and we certainly can have differeing views. The 'problem' I have is when folks claim knowledge that they clearly do not possess, and that is NOT the case with you.
I don't visit talkbass and such forums,
You're better off for it. Technical accuracy on Talkbass is as much of an oxymoron as truth in politics.
Since yesterday, I've read through the amps section here, and I can see that you are a skilled amp-factsman. Now, I couldn't help chipping in on this thread, as I play a musicman stack myself -and although being an all tube lover - have special feelings for these amps. I have also worked on many MM's. If I get too technical in my replies here, feel free to moderate me - I'm here for gibby amusement, not work :)
You don't have anything to worry about. You are actually informed. There are others who speak authoritatively on amps who are not. Opinions presented as such and experience are always respected here. Self-aggrandizing BS is not, and as I said before, you have NOTHING to worry about in that department. It's nice to bounce experience off of other experienced techs. If you're interested, I am a member of another forum that's all about working on amps that is every bit as laid back as this place with guys who have been working on amps for decades that will still take the time to explain to the guy who Googled the forum and wants to put 6V6's in his Fender Twin why he shouldn't do it in as plainspoken terms as possible, but always with the experience, knowledge base, and references to conclusively support that advice should the need arise to provide it.
Other forums have set a tremendously bad example by treating disagreement or even discussion from differing viewpoints as fighting, and because of that, lots of bad information becomes accepted and treated as fact because it is "disrespectful" to correct it. You don't have to worry about disagreeing with me ever. I take legit disagreement just fine. I just won't tolerate bullshit.
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Ok, great - I really appreciate having a corner where similar minds can speak.
Svetlana had a separate Northeastern Europe distributor with a Russian contact at the factory that got better tubes than what was available in the US. I tried to order from them a few times, but they never replied to any of my inquires. They had a couple of models that were even completely unavailable at all in the US like the Svetlana EL509 II, which I would LOVE to get ahold of.
Well, if you have any weird tube wishes they might come true in my homeland.
I buy directly from the Northern Europe importer of Winged ´C´, PM Guitartubes and different HiFi tubes if you can call them that. He has an extreme level of knowledge when it comes to tubes - and I am aware that many claim they are. He is very old, and it is a delight to know him - he´s been a collector since the 70´s i think, and he posesses knowledge of tube machinery and manufacturing that is from another time.
The good thing is that he never had a webshop:-) He can meet ANY requests.
Sounds crazy, but when I started to build amps for myself some 15 years ago, there was a handful of places (or communities, if you wish) where you could buy quality NOS, used or new parts and tubes, trannies, printed schematics for next to nothing. A nice, 60´s preamp tube, mullard, telefunken, whatever you wish- 10 bucks... Of course, European tubes are more easily available here than in the U.S., but my bottom line is - tube prices (and quality) as presented on large webshops, ebay, forums etc. is for the common scandinavian unreal. If every collector put up a webshop, prices would go up - but I think there is a different mentality over here.
Oh, back to the thread - how did that MusicMan rig turn out?
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The first MM rig is working wonderfully with the Mesa and Ampeg 15" cabs. It is such a great combo with my basses. The richness of the tone and depth is really noticeable. Plenty of volume for our club.
The second MM rig I just bought with the two MM cabs is acting up. It's making some weird sounds and my guitar player, who plays tube amps, says it might a tube issue. We'll check it out and report back.
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Almost always pre amp tubes for me.
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Almost always pre amp tubes for me.
Yep, we have practice tomorrow night, so I'll fiddle with it some then. My new rig set up is to run a Y box to both MM amps creating a 4 x 15" scheme. Don't need the volume so much as I like to disperse the sound around the stage area, put a speaker behind the guitar player and the drummer. Worked well till the one MM amp started making noises.
I do have an outdoor gig coming up next month, so the two amps, 4 speakers will be necessary for sure. My fallback position till be to run the one rig (2 MM cabs) with my Mesa amp if necessary.
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Don't need the volume so much as I like to disperse the sound around the stage area,
That outta do it! ;D
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It doesn't sound like the Hon. Dr. Bassman's layoff from bass-playing lasted long.
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Oh I'm fine. Got some pinched nerve issues in my back and shoulder, but I'm great otherwise. Still cancer free and feeling super.
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The second MM rig I just bought with the two MM cabs is acting up. It's making some weird sounds.
What do they sound like?
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What do they sound like?
I'll listen closely tonight and report back. It was distorted as I recall. I haven't practiced for 2 weeks!
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Did you use both of the speakers that came with the MM´s?
Were they both 8 ohms?
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Did you use both of the speakers that came with the MM´s?
Were they both 8 ohms?
Yes, each set up is an MM 130, each with two 8 ohm 15s and the switch on the back of the amp set to 4ohm. The one rig didn't start distorting until after and hour or so of playing. Going to practice in ten minutes. More to come.
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Well, practice showed that the speakers just don't handle the volume I need for the room. After all, they are about 40 years old! Might just sell the cabs and keep the amp. It seems to be working fine.
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As a follow-up to the speakers, the main problem with the rig were vibration issues. By putting one cab too close to the drums, I set his heads and snare in motion big-time every time I played the e-string. So, we had to move that. Someone also put wheels on the cabs and they rattled like crazy. So, they gotta go if I decide to upgrade things. As I noted, the speakers really aren't handling the volume I was playing at and I was getting some distortion through them.
So, amp buddies, would it be worth my while to upgrade the 15" speakers in these cabs or just go with newer current technology cabs? Changing the cabs location on stage and losing the wheels will help the noise issues considerably.
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The JBL will take the power (especially if it's got a partner) - it's just that other one (the stock Eminence, was it? I forget and can't be bothered to scroll back a few pages) - those just can't take bass at louder volumes without farting out. Change the speaker. Personally I recommend anything in EV's higher powered range (I use an SP15a, not the vintage hifi one, but the relatively modern one with that stupid fake heat sink on the back - really fast transient response for a 15, and more top end than any other for sure too, but it's not for everyone; not actually a bass guitar speaker - they make more traditional style bass guitar 15s, but I like the extra top and lack of 15ish sluggishness - means I don't need a second cab for detail/clarity/harmonics).
... now if you were closer to me geographically I'd be all like "how much" because I really want a second.
I'd recommend changing that non-JBL out for anything decent and seeing if that resolves the matter - you can get $40 for the stock speaker on ebay/craigslist (or keep as emerg spare). If you do sell both, the JBL alone should get you $120 minimum (I'll totally take the empty cab, if the shipping can be sorted - it's really too bad they cancelled the Toronto-Rochester ferry).
... and yeah, mine causes a lot of snare rattle too (but so do the guitar amps; there's hardly any avoiding it).
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That E string causes all kind of interesting resonance issues. I've wondered if a low B or C string would be even worse about making drum and building parts dance around.
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Yes, each set up is an MM 130, each with two 8 ohm 15s and the switch on the back of the amp set to 4ohm. The one rig didn't start distorting until after and hour or so of playing. Going to practice in ten minutes. More to come.
It´s been a couple of posts already on this thread already, excuse me if I´m repeating stuff...
You´ve hooked the cabs up in parallel (two jacks on one of the cabs) so that the amp gets the right load?
(not plugging both cabs into the amp, which is series wired)
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It´s been a couple of posts already on this thread already, excuse me if I´m repeating stuff...
You´ve hooked the cabs up in parallel (two jacks on one of the cabs) so that the amp gets the right load?
(not plugging both cabs into the amp, which is series wired)
Yep, I did a parallel hookup.
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As a follow-up to the speakers, the main problem with the rig were vibration issues. By putting one cab too close to the drums, I set his heads and snare in motion big-time every time I played the e-string. So, we had to move that. Someone also put wheels on the cabs and they rattled like crazy. So, they gotta go if I decide to upgrade things. As I noted, the speakers really aren't handling the volume I was playing at and I was getting some distortion through them.
So, amp buddies, would it be worth my while to upgrade the 15" speakers in these cabs or just go with newer current technology cabs? Changing the cabs location on stage and losing the wheels will help the noise issues considerably.
First, speaker cabinet design is´t really my field, I´m more into amplifier design.
Acoustics is a quite big field, and the variety of possible matching drivers is endless.
That said, I did enjoy doing research for my own optimum MusicMan rig upgrade.
The few fellow bassists-with-MM experience I´ve met all say the same - it´s 70´s sounding, boomy, rattling, unreliable gear that only works together (MM amps/cabs). Guitar players seem to like them better.
I talked to a speaker designer (we have a great speaker factory in my hometown - HiFi, but made a few good guitar speakers in the 60`s and 70`s) about the ´reflex horn´cabinet design. It couldn´t be that shitty design?
Anyway, his view was that the cabinet itself was fine, but finding the right speaker for it might be difficult. Resonance frequenzy, sensitivity, etc would have to be chosen with care. This was many years ago, and it might be easier now to calculate such things - but at the time i was looking for something with ohms and watts chosen to fit.
My 212RH cab never sounded good, but when you´re 15 years old a tube amp and a big cab does the job anyway.
It came with blown speakers, a couple of 1975 fender guitar speakers was fitted when i got it.
(I used the 130 head with 115/410 peavey cabs until I got the 212RH) The sound was boxy and harsh, very midrange strong, but not in a good way. Later changed them to some late 70´s ROLA´s, same rating and ohms but with quicker response and much louder. (we stiffened the paper cone at the factory) Still quite harsh sounding, a bit more bottom but not tight - just boomy.
I then gave the head a full service, just to be sure. One day the ´speaker man`came by our rehearsal room, and took a look at the speaker cab. He asked if I had removed the dampening, but there never was any.
Installing dampening made a huge difference, took care of the `unnatural´ sounds and boom.
When I one day finally got the 115RH cab I´ve been looking for , well - forever, I was glad to see it had the original EVM15L speaker. But it was blown. I reconed it with a kit from soundspeaker repair in U.S., 400w 8ohm.
I dampened this cab too, and put large rubber feet on both cabs. And the results was great, one of the sweetest sounds heard in ages for me! Really tight lows/low mids, punchy, not boomy, quick responding, great!
But sadly it was only the 115RH that was great, couldn´t use them together. The 212RH was too loud (even both cabs were 8 ohms ) and still not sounding right, too much harshness in the mids, so still there was work to be done.
I´m not finished yet, I know this is getting long.... go grab a beer or something :)
Anyway, at this point I just wrote letters to some of the manufacturers of 12" bass/guitar speakers, ready to buy from whoever with the best answer to my 212RH questions. Celestion responded quickly, and recommended a speaker called BN12-200 (200W 4ohm neodym). Not available here in scandinavia, but watford valves in the U.K. had them.
It is my first experience with neodymium magnets, and the verdict is that they are better than any 12" bass speaker I´ve used. Nice and balanced, very quick, bright. Very even frequenzy response, all in all a pleasant sounding speaker for this application.
Best of all : a perfect match with the 115RH cab- the whole rig now sounds fantastic! Sounds good with my EB-6 too.
Sounds good with a Grabber, EB-3, Rick 4001, anything. Even made my ´75 P bass sound good!
Bottom line here, these cabs sound great with care taken tuning (dampening) them, making the grille sit, etc.
Rubber feet are fine, too. And if you find the right speaker, they wont let you down.
I am of the opinion that the 115RH enclosure was designed for the EVM15L, and that´s probably a good choice if you can get them.
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The few fellow bassists-with-MM experience I´ve met all say the same - it´s 70´s sounding, boomy, rattling, unreliable gear that only works together (MM amps/cabs). Guitar players seem to like them better.
I talked to a speaker designer (we have a great speaker factory in my hometown - HiFi, but made a few good guitar speakers in the 60`s and 70`s) about the ´reflex horn´cabinet design. It couldn´t be that shitty design?
Anyway, his view was that the cabinet itself was fine, but finding the right speaker for it might be difficult. Resonance frequenzy, sensitivity, etc would have to be chosen with care. This was many years ago, and it might be easier now to calculate such things - but at the time i was looking for something with ohms and watts chosen to fit.
My 212RH cab never sounded good, but when you´re 15 years old a tube amp and a big cab does the job anyway.
It came with blown speakers, a couple of 1975 fender guitar speakers was fitted when i got it.
(I used the 130 head with 115/410 peavey cabs until I got the 212RH) The sound was boxy and harsh, very midrange strong, but not in a good way. Later changed them to some late 70´s ROLA´s, same rating and ohms but with quicker response and much louder. (we stiffened the paper cone at the factory) Still quite harsh sounding, a bit more bottom but not tight - just boomy.
I then gave the head a full service, just to be sure. One day the ´speaker man`came by our rehearsal room, and took a look at the speaker cab. He asked if I had removed the dampening, but there never was any.
Installing dampening made a huge difference, took care of the `unnatural´ sounds and boom.
When I one day finally got the 115RH cab I´ve been looking for , well - forever, I was glad to see it had the original EVM15L speaker. But it was blown. I reconed it with a kit from soundspeaker repair in U.S., 400w 8ohm.
I dampened this cab too, and put large rubber feet on both cabs. And the results was great, one of the sweetest sounds heard in ages for me! Really tight lows/low mids, punchy, not boomy, quick responding, great!
Now mind you I have modified mine quite a bit (changed the horn length/throat area and some stuffing) ... It's closer to a back loaded horn now (smaller throat cross section makes for more of a compression chamber, if you lay the cab with the horn mouth on the floor as I do (vs on the side as in the pics above) then you effectively increase the horn length (kinda like a corner horn, but not as good).
Even stock though I never found these things rattley. Quite the contrary, rather solid and reasonably well-braced. The stock speakers just blew goats (unless you were playing guitar as we've both already implied). I would be willing to bet that the perceived rattle is actually just the shitty stock drivers (not the optional EV upgrade) distorting and farting out at volume (admittedly, I never really turned it up that loud with the stock speaker due to this very issue, but I have with the EV I replaced it with). I have castors on mine (only 2 not 4, kind of tilt and go - I never have to roll it very far) and they don't rattle when playing either (don't get the swivel kind, unless removable, because yeah, those will dance all over the place on any bass cab - I just have the straight non-turning ones.... even better get/make a dolly for the cab). Another thing is to put proper rubber feet on it (as you say later in your post) - the stock ones (or at least the ones that were there on mine) are hilariously undersized and hardened from age - useless (I recomend these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-770 solid rubber vs hollow and have a metal washer embedded in screw hole - bulletproof).
The bit of stuffing I added probably helps with internal resonances a bit, and it's nice to hear that speaker designers are recomending that too (you're actually not supposed to stuff reflex cabinets, rather just line the interior walls, but then again, this isn't a straight up reflex cabinet, and after the mods I have made, I'm not exactly sure what it is now; don't care cause it's awesome).
So yeah, pretty much the same experience over here. The point being that the cab is bloody solid and a good design, just old and in need of some love and tuning to one's particular taste (e.g. a local bassist bought the stock driver off me because he likes that sort of Kinks farty sound; slashing the speaker cones pretty much has a very similar effect to using an underrated speaker, or in this case, a light guitar cone for bass use - the cone buckles under the strain causing that farty distortion... I think that dude uses an Ampeg V4 or something with just that speaker in and undersized sealed, Univox, I think, cab I also sold him - a horrible rig on paper, but in the context of his band it just works).
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Thanks guys, I'm feeling better about modding these cabs. So, two key questions. What should I be looking at for contemporary 15" speakers? Second, what material should I use for damping and where should it be placed?
I did forget to mention that the speakers seem to be fine, but they really were distorting with volume. Really not up to the bass I was pumping through them.
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Thanks guys, I'm feeling better about modding these cabs. So, two key questions. What should I be looking at for contemporary 15" speakers? Second, what material should I use for damping and where should it be placed?
I did forget to mention that the speakers seem to be fine, but they really were distorting with volume. Really not up to the bass I was pumping through them.
First, although the JBL is a fine speaker, using both cabs call for similar speakers - in my opinion that is.
I know people who likes both biamping and even using brighter 15"s for the top cab, but then you have to trial and error a lot,
as these cabs are somewhat - uh.. different.
Anyway, with two 115RH's I'd either look up something with similar specs as the EVM15L. I know that EV does not make cast frame 15"s
anymore, at least not for instrument reproduction. Talk to the speaker factories, they usually gives good advices.
Current production 15"s for bass, well, I've been through several standard ferrite/ceramic ones from china, italy, etc (various brands, jensen etc)
in the 100-200w range that are similar sounding and OK but nothing special- in another cab they might be great.
I only use the EVM15L these days, when it comes to 115 cabs, exept for a small ampeg cab with a stock china 15" that sounds OK at it's best.
If I had to replace my EVM for some reason, I'd check out the Celestion BN15-400(S) neodymium. It is the same series as the 12"s i bought for my
212RH, and they are really givin' me a good time. They were recommended to me by celestion.
Remember that neodymium, being a rare earth material, might be tougher to find in years to come. Prices have gone up, and neo speaker prices
are expected to be tripeled now - so grab 'em while you can!
When they first came around, many wouldn't touch them - and I agree that it doesn't look good in the back of an old open cab guitar amp.
Maybe in 40 years neo speakers of a 'certain vintage' will be worth a fortune. :)
As we all know, it happened to alnico in the 60's, they are available now of course - but are still high priced.
Both neo and alnico are very good speaker magnet materials, and similar sounding though neo is way more powerful.
People have different opinions and taste here, but a good bass speaker can be made of anything if the design is good and it fits the application.
Now, what do you call that dampening material? Good question, don't know! Have to check my encisclopheediac.
It's sort of a foamy, white blanket that is used both for HiFi and furniture building.
Didn't measure any resonance, stick your head in - when you can say HO-HO loud and it sounds pleasant, it's fine really!
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Are you talking about Acousta-stuf?
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First, although the JBL is a fine speaker, using both cabs call for similar speakers - in my opinion that is.
This is a valid opinion, though I disagree. There is plenty of precedent for 2 different drivers even in the same cab if not rig (see people who run a 2x10 + 1x15 bass rig or boutique guitar 2x12s with 2 differant drivers in them).
Integration is not really that big an issue moreso than if the drivers were identical - that's already problematic due to Freq overlap and multiple distant sound sources (not single point source), having 1 brighter speaker will not really create more of a problem there.
This is not a hifi system, and there's no crossover so integration is nearly a nonissue IMHO. The only thing is whether you like the combo in the end or not and whether the new driver(s) work well in the reflex horn design.
I don't have any specific speaker recommendations other than I find that EVs work well in these cabs and in terms of general specs. If distortion-less handling of bass freqs is desired (clean, tight, thumpy) then definately go for something cast frame and either a heavy cone (as every bass guitar speaker typically has - this will give you the typical 15 incher sluggishness) or a lighter cone but overall power handling that is 3x more than required given the amps output wattage spec (this will give faster transient response and more detail - my EV SP15a for example takes 300 watts, but my amp is just a pair of 6550 giving about 50-60 watts RMS).
Other brands/models to look at:
- Another JBL d or k or e140 (the E being the least desirabble and heaviest, but also slightly cheaper)
- BEYMA 15MI100 (the JBLs are no longer made; these are supposed to be a really close match and available new; not cheap though and I haven't tried them myself)
- EV EVM15L as per the original factory upgrade option (safe, but not available new - plenty available used and reconed - I can get them easily here locally for $150 +/-, freshly reconed)
- EV SP15a (modern not vintage; previously mentioned caveats etc)
- Peavey Scorpion (yes really; tight and thumpy as all hell, but maybe a bit lean in the top - coupled with the JBL in the other cab, and depending on your tastes this might be good or too dark).
You will also likely need to replace the stock driver mounting screws with longer ones (my EV has a very thick cast frame vs the thin stamped steel of the original driver - I had some really bad resonances due to the driver vibrating in place because it wasn't secure enough until I put in longer screws that I could really crank down). Also, this gives room for you to add a gasket between the frame and cab which will also help clean things up a lot (if you do nothing else, do this!). I use cork (cut my own out of 1/4" sheet); you can buy them readymade (I really recommend the more expensive cork ones vs the hard compressed paper ones) from any speaker supply or reconer or DIY out of any of the same materials listed below for lining the interior of your cab.
As for stuffing, fiberglass insulation will do but is not ideal acoustically as well as safety-wise. I recommend long hair 'roving' (raw unprocessed, just washed) wool (also sometimes called 'batt' - like a big ass cotton ball basically). This is available from any knitting supply store (e.g. where they sell yarn) but tends to be expensive and comes in relatively small quantities (I usually buy in quantity from whatever local Sheep farmer I can find instead, like by the garbage bag vs a lb at a time from knitting shops). There are synthetic options such as Acousta-stuff (which is second best to wool apparently, but I never used it) or polyester pillow stuffing (better/safer than fiberglass) which is the easiest to find. Before stuffing, you might want to just try lining the interior walls of the cab as this will change it's properties the least while still helping with internal resonances (and as mentioned, reflex type cabs aren't supposed to be stuffed, but yes, this isn't a straight up reflex and rules are made to be broken - if it sounds good to you, it is good). For this you can use anything absorptive that can be easily glued or stapled to the inside such as: 1/4" cork sheet, thick felt, sheet foam, or any number of panel deadening products designed for car audio (usually asphalt based, sometimes rubber/butyl/neoprene, with an adhesive back .... not that I advocate silly things like 500 watt subs in cars). If you find lining is not enough, you can always stuff afterwards (without removing the lining) even if you use a completely different product for stuffing vs lining. Also just line/stuff the main enclosure and not the horn part.
I actually can't remember what I used on mine - it's been quite a while, I should have a look in there.
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Thanks for all of the great input and advice. I am toying with the upgrades, but I always have a problem modifying vintage equipment that hasn't been molested already, even cabs. I might just put them away and buy something else to use with the head. I think I should keep the two cabs and amp as they sure are a nice set.
We'll see, gotta think about this some more.
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Fair enough, but changing a driver/rubber feet/gasket/stuffing are pretty easily reversable with no damage done (you can use one of the metal corner mount screws to attach the rubber feet.... or get an Auralex gramma/DIY one).
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Adding everything up for the exterior changes, damping, and a high quality driver comes out to $300 or more per cab. Not sure I want to spend that much. Leaving them vintage, or as is, might be a better option.
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I would disassemble the cab and put Locktite on all the joints and in all the screw holes except the driver mounts, where I just install some screw collets. If the driver were actually distorting from being overpowered, it would happen immediately, so that means it's either a vibration problem with the cabinet or the amp is getty dirty as it gets warm.
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Or that he just didn't turn it up (either gain or bass EQ) as much the first time.
IIRC these cabs (or at least mine did when it came to me) have the drivers mounted on T-nuts already (I prefer bushings/collets/threaded inserts personally, but if they're already there I'm not gonna change em out).
I guess not everyone has wool/insulation and cork sheet lying around all the time like I do, but I'm sure it can be done for less than $300 per cab (not including replacement drivers, but like I said, there's no point changing out the JBL unless it's not your cup of tea, but selling it off will easily fund a replacement... and the Eminence might actually be OK if not the sole driver taking the load and some damping, gasket especially, is added.... the cone can also be stiffenned to reduce breakup distortion , aka fartiness, by painting it with Puzzcoat or watered down white/wood glue.... this will, cause a loss of some top end, but increase low end extension by lowering the cone's resonance point; might be worth the risk to try on that $40 Eminence - common mod in hifi circles).
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my 115H cab has a reconditioned EVB which now is 400 watt 4ohm and it sounds great. no rattles, farts, I did add some sound deadening when i put the new speaker in. my 212 needs some help. not sure mixing neos and magmake sense but maybe in this situation.....the jbl should sound great but is more of a 150-200 watt speaker IIRC
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Adding everything up for the exterior changes, damping, and a high quality driver comes out to $300 or more per cab. Not sure I want to spend that much. Leaving them vintage, or as is, might be a better option.
There is certainly possible to get good deals on celestion neo's, especially those on the way out of the market now (or at least out of stock).
Damping should be easy to find as well at low prices.
PBG's post as well, about the amp getting warm- check it out. Didn't you have another working HD130? A/B the cab's to rule out the amp.
And glueing / thightening the cab is a must in any rattle situation - anybody here who have played ampeg combo's of recent vintage would be experienced cab thighteners I guess...
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Lots of good suggestions. It looks like the rehab of these cabs is going to take more time and money than I had expected. As for A and Bing the amps, we did try that and ruled out the amp after all. The amp performed well with the Mesa/Ampeg cabs. The main issue was high volume speaker farts and massive cab rattle. I already have so many projects going, I'm going to have to think about my timing on these. I'm spending the entire weekend just organizing my shop to produce my basses and amp mods weren't on the radar! Not to mention several part time job offers to consider now that I have retired. Geez.
If everyone thinks these things will sound good with tightening, damping and new speakers, I'll probably go for it when I can squeeze it into my schedule. Probably won't be till September or after. The summer is really busy and going way too fast!!!!
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Update. Last night at practice, I played through a 4x10custom built bass cab using my "newer" MM 130. It was so nice! The amp finally showed what it could do with a high quality cab to drive. I literally played an entire 2 hour practice through it and the volume and tone were super. I was surprised that the cab was not overly high freq, but had a nice across the range sound to it. So, the verdict is the amp is fine, it needs good cabs.
After an hour, I hooked up my Y box and ran both amps, one with the 10s and the other with the two 15s. Now I have the dispersion of bass I was looking for and excellent range of lows thru highs. I have two outdoor gigs coming up and this setup should really cover things for me. I'm going to keep using the 4x10 cab for awhile and decide later what to do about the MM cabs. No big rush.
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You can never have too many cabs.
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You can never have too many cabs.
Amen. It's all about moving air!
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... unless you've been eating a lot of brassicas ...
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Thinking about selling the 2 MM cabs. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. Otherwise, I'll post them in Sales subforum later this week.
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[checking google to see how long the drive is]
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Oh man, not only does The Wiff know me very well, she is also a merciless troll. A text exchange just now:
Me (not expecting a positive response at all): I don't suppose you have any desire to visit Rochester?
Her (she has a friend from there): I've always wanted to go!!!
Me: Rlly?
Her: Um, no.... what piece of used musical gear do you wish to pick up from there?
Me: LOL
Her: Or is it a LIPP show?
Me: [redface emoticon]
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Thinking about selling the 2 MM cabs. Shoot me a PM if you're interested. Otherwise, I'll post them in Sales subforum later this week.
That depends... Do you live in scandinavia? :)
I'd love to have a 2.nd rig.... but the shipping would be crazy.
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Oh man, not only does The Wiff know me very well, she is also a merciless troll. A text exchange just now:
Me (not expecting a positive response at all): I don't suppose you have any desire to visit Rochester?
Her (she has a friend from there): I've always wanted to go!!!
Me: Rlly?
Her: Um, no.... what piece of used musical gear do you wish to pick up from there?
Me: LOL
Her: Or is it a LIPP show?
Me: [redface emoticon]
Gotta love the better halves!
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That depends... Do you live in scandinavia? :)
I'd love to have a 2.nd rig.... but the shipping would be crazy.
Yeah, shipping would be a bit much. Ironically, these cabs are not real heavy or deep. By most standards, they are reasonable for hauling and setting up. I just don't have time or energy to upgrade them. Just got a new half-time job and that with bass building is going to swamp me! So much for retirement!
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Sigh...another retiree who's busier than when he was working full time! ;)
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Sigh...another retiree who's busier than when he was working full time! ;)
Yah, it's harder to retire than I imagined! Got my old job back at Rochester Institute of Technology running the MS in Health Systems Admin, part-time and on my terms. Should actually be fun!
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Decided to upgrade one of the cabs and see how it does. What the heck!
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Now that's a wise decition!
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+1. I actually love the 115 with the 400 Ev i put in it. Might be my favorite single speaker cab i own. LIke it much better than the ampeg pf15HE.
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:toast:
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This tread title goes for me as well: I'm running a Music Man HD 130 into an Ampeg Isovent, (with 2x10" & 2x15"), sounds fantastic!
That amp is great with pedals and as it could take another 4 Ohm cab, I was thinking about adding maybe a 2x12" ... ?
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Got the EV and it looks nice. Working on some damping material now.
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not alot stuffing in my cab. it is open anyway.
I love the EV in mine
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not alot stuffing in my cab. it is open anyway.
I love the EV in mine
Got the EV 15L you recommended. I'm going for some simple stick on damping foam or something similar.
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I just joined the HD130 club as well! I think that it's going to replace my V4, but I'll find out Saturday at the gig.
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not alot stuffing in my cab. it is open anyway.
I love the EV in mine
Can't wait to try it out!
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I just joined the HD130 club as well! I think that it's going to replace my V4, but I'll find out Saturday at the gig.
Welcome, I love mine! Takes me back to my old Ampeg B-15 days.
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So, I'm thinking I going to use the acoustic fiber rather than foam stick on stuff. The fiber will be easier to work with if adjustments need to be made. The Acousta-Stuf looks good.
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Got the EV 15L you recommended.
My favorite speaker. Nice "snap" to it. Put a good amp behind it, and a mic in front of it, and you're good to go!
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My favorite speaker. Nice "snap" to it. Put a good amp behind it, and a mic in front of it, and you're good to go!
Agree, very easy to get a good sound, records great with many different mikes too.
The MM115RH/EVM15L has grown to be my favourite allround cab. I think it brings out the best of
my amps and basses..
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thinking about 2 ev's in my 212 cab. any thoughts????
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After hearing what the EVM15L did to my 115RH, along with the trouble I went through to make my 212 sound good, I´d try them right away. Unfortunately I was on a budget (and really had given the cab up) and ended up with Celestion Neo BN12/200 in my 212RH (as described earlier in this thread) and they sound great. But EVM12L´s are on the top of my list, I hope to find a couple of old ones and recone them one day.
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Those (EV 12s) can be had for 100-120 each freshly reconed from a local guy here. He's always got a pile of them. He'll even do weird things like custom cone weights (EVs tend to the lighter side for a bass woofer); whizzer, metal dust cap (not a fan of those personally, but they do do something to the top end, I find). He also sells recone kits.
Blown ones come up often enough on ebay; not exactly a rare speaker. Considering the shipping, it's cheaper (for me) to just buy reconed ones from this dude (I have 2 of them, plus 2 Peavey Black Widows and 4 custom made passive radiators from this dude in a pair of those old 4x12 Traynor line array PA columns; in parallel with a pair of old Sunn PA horns, they kicked ass as the front of house speakers in my studio/venue, RIP/dang landlord pulled the rug just as the place was starting to do well).
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They are not that common over here. But then we still have plenty of Mullard tubes, so all is not lost ;D
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Got some acousta-stuf on the way. I'll post some pics when I do the upgrade.
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Finally had some time to work on the first cab. Pulled out the Eminence speaker. Nicely built cab really.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN0988_zps7bcc9ab0.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN0988_zps7bcc9ab0.jpg.html)
Put in the acoustic-stuf material and was on my way.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN0989_zps46226fb0.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN0989_zps46226fb0.jpg.html)
Here's the beastie I'm installing.......
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/AMPS/DSCN0991_zps524ccf15.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/drbassman/media/AMPS/DSCN0991_zps524ccf15.jpg.html)
Of course, no project ever goes as planned...... The beefy angular frame of the EV doesn't fit entirely inside the stock speaker hole! Of course! So the speaker rim sits about 1/4" above the hole while resting on the angled frame members. I could fill the gap with additional plywood or cork ring, but then the speaker face will contact the grill and cause it to ride too high and not seal against its velcro fasteners. Ugh!
The second choice is to carve out small notches at each mounting hole site so the frame passes through and lets the speaker rim fit flush as it should.
I'm going for option two. A pain in the butt, but the best solution IMHO. Talk me down if you have another solution I haven't thought of. It's always something!!!!!
I'm gonna go mow the lawn and think about this some more.......
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I don't think notches will hurt anything, and they're not hard to fill if needed later.
If you have some long-ignored carbon paper hiding in the basement, you could use it between the speaker and cab to mark the places where the notches go.
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I don't think notches will hurt anything, and they're not hard to fill if needed later.
If you have some long-ignored carbon paper hiding in the basement, you could use it between the speaker and cab to mark the places where the notches go.
Yeah, carbon paper, I vaguely remember that! Don't have any though. Some expert measuring should do it!
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I had the same problem once...seems like I got a wood rasp and went around the top edge of the speaker cut, and just opended it up slightly...so that the top edge of the cut was rounded...like rounding it off with a router...was enough to get the speaker in.
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Yeah, I've had to do that before (notches as well as the rasp thing... always with old EVs, though not the EV I put in my RH115, usually ones designed for rear mounting).
Carbon paper and measuring are great but hardly required. Just place the speaker in the hole and apply pressure - the wood will compress where the frame hits and presto.
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Yeah, it won't be hard to file out some notches. Just have to find the time!
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Yeah, it won't be hard to file out some notches. Just have to find the time!
Easier to use a jig saw to nibble them out.
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Or a grinder wheel on a drill!
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Just place the speaker in the hole and apply pressure - the wood will compress where the frame hits and presto.
Good idea but, if you your wife has bright lipstick she doesn't like, just smear a bit on the edges of the speaker and press it into place - there's your cut point(s). You can also use chalk box chalk as well.
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I had the same problem once...seems like I got a wood rasp and went around the top edge of the speaker cut, and just opended it up slightly...so that the top edge of the cut was rounded...like rounding it off with a router...was enough to get the speaker in.
my MM115H cab was rounded when i got it. didn't think why but the EV fit right in....
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Well, a rasp and 15 minutes of heavy filing did the trick. I still put a thin layer of cork around the hole as the speaker braces still hit the sides just a little and I was already hitting the metal screw inserts with the file on all of the screw holes. Fits nice and snug now!
I realize one of the problems with the speaker is that it is really made to fit a cab from behind, not drop in from the front like the MM's are. The front of the EV has the heavy cardboard ring on the front so you can mount it from the back. Not so on the speaker's rear of the rim. So, even though it's a bit of mis-installation, it works. I am going to add some longer screws with washers as the stock screws barely hold without pulling through the holes in the speaker rim.
I'll ad some longer screws with a washer tomorrow. Otherwise, all is well! Meanwhile, I cranked the amp up and the sound is amazing. When I think back to how thin and nasally it sounded when I first got it, I'm amazed the difference $200 worth of speaker and stuffing make. It thumps, it's bassy, it's clean and no farting at volume. I'm so pleased. The casters also rattle less, so I'm thinking I'll leave them on for a bot. They are handy for moving things.
I recommend the acousta-stuf without reservation. I put 5 lbs. in the cab and it sounds terrific. I'm ordering 5 lbs. more for the other cab (about $44 with shipping). Not cheap, but easy and effective. I'll leave the JBL in that one and it should sound great as well. It's so nice not dealing with fiberglass issues. You can handle this stuff with your bare hands and no mask. Just stuff it in.
After I stuff the second cab, I'll take the cabs back to practice and report back on full bore operations in the club.
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OK, now I'm confused. I plugged in the second cab, set the amp to 4 ohm and not the EV is producing constant static on every note, even at low volume. As long as the note is sustained, the static is present. The static sounds purely electronic, not speaker or cone farting.What gives???
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Re Mounting and Stuffing:
EVs were designed to go in front or back of the baffle, hole diameter obviously was spec'd bigger for EV than what was original OEM. For front mount you should use a thin open cell weatherstrip, 3/8" wide by 1/8" thick, original was thin cork.
As to cabinet stuffing...go to Walmart, buy 2 of their cheapest pillows, last time I was there they were 2 for $5, cut them open and pull out the filling. It's the same stuff you are paying $44 for.
Amp noises: Just my 2 cents but if it was mine I'd get it to a competent tech and have him go through it. If the wrong part goes south you could have a major repair bill on your hands.
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Right on Carlo. I am happy with the mounting and the stuffing. After going back and trying different combinations, both cabs together or individually are producing static. Pretty sure it's the amp now. Looks like it's off to the local tube amp guy for a diagnosis.
One thing about the pillow stuffing, I read on several speaker forums that lots of folks have tried the batting from pillows or for sewing. The acoustic wizards on the forums do not recommend it, claiming its acoustic properties just aren't up to the task. Who knows? I do know the acousta-stuf has been tested and is recommended by lots of speaker folks. A few bucks more, but I can handle it.
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One thing about the pillow stuffing, I read on several speaker forums that lots of folks have tried the batting from pillows or for sewing. The acoustic wizards on the forums do not recommend it, claiming its acoustic properties just aren't up to the task.
While pillows clearly are not designed with "acoustic properties" in mind, I am inclined to believe that one batch of poly stuffing is similar to another.
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While pillows clearly are not designed with "acoustic properties" in mind, I am inclined to believe that one batch of poly stuffing is similar to another.
Not according to speaker "nerds.". Kinda reminds me of poly vs. nitro debates. Either way, the cab kicks butt now. My amp just has to work. I am gonna bring home my Mesa and test the cabs.
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Just think - with the right stuffing, you could have had a Sealey Posturepedic Cab!
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Just think - with the right stuffing, you could have had a Sealey Posturepedic Cab!
Or better yet, for those of us of a certain age, a Serta Perfect Sleeper with Joey Heatherton.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0yELp1Cqec
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That's how you market mattresses!
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Not according to speaker "nerds.". Kinda reminds me of poly vs. nitro debates. Either way, the cab kicks butt now. My amp just has to work.
No, he's right, polyester pillow stuffing is almost the same thing as Accoustastuff (Allegedly; I don't use either).
If only one cab is making the noise, maybe it's not the amp that's the issue. Try playing each speaker solo. If you only get the static from the EV, it could be a light voicecoil rub - that can sound a bit like static sometimes.
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I tested the amp with both cabs together and individually and I get the static in all situations. I suspect that this static was what caused me first to question the speakers when I set the rig up for a trial run at practice. I thought it was ambient rattling and speaker farting, but now I think it was amp malfunction that is random, not continuous and I couldn't discern the problem in the cafe setting.
I'm calling the amp guy today.
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Got the amp from the shop. Got the caps replaced, pots cleaned and everything checked out. The static I was hearing was due to a couple really dirty pots. Duh, I should have figure that out. The new Ruby tubes are fine. It sounds great now through the 2 MM cabs. The cabs sound better as well with the damping material. The low end on them is improved, but not as deep to my ears as my other two 15" cabs, the Ampeg and the Mesa.
I'm beginning to think the modern design and new speakers of the Mesa and Ampeg are simply better than the older style of the shallow box/bottom vent of the MMs. The MMs are definitely warmer and stronger now that things have been fixed and make me think of the good old days of my bass playing youth in the 1960's. They do however lack the depth of bass that the newer cabs have. Other then that, they sound good and can handle a lot of volume now. I'm taking them to practice and set them next to the Mesa/Ampeg cabs and compare them directly while playing at volume. We'll see the difference then and confirm whether or not my brain is fooling me.
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Exactly why I don't like ported/vented cabinets. Extended range is completely overrated, I hate the 'modern' bass sound. Give me a good sealed
infinite baffle cabinet any day, way punchier with better transient response than any ported design. As far as I'm concerned a first generation SVT cabinet or three with a good amp apiece can't be beat live. And a B-15 in a studio will get you any sound you need from clean to supersaturated tube distortion. Tweeters and subs need not apply.
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Sealed (aka acoustic suspension) has, by defenition, poor transient response.... then again, so do bass reflex (not sure off hand which is worse, but I'm with you as regards that 'modern bass sound' in that I'm not a fan of bass reflex cabs in general, though they can be done well - see vintage Tannoy studio monitors).
The best transient response comes from open back (sacrificing bass response unless you put it in a very large baffle) and transmission lines (which require a box that is even bigger than a sealed, assuming the same drive unit). This is because the speaker is operating in a box that mimics "free air" (vs the pressurized nature of a sealed or even ported, aka strategically leaky sealed box). This minimizes the amount of force required to move the cone so it can react faster whereas sealed cabs hold the speaker back due to internal air pressure (the trade off here is that the speaker can handle a bit more power due to this added resistence to movement; it becomes harder to push the cone/voice coil to the extremes of travel).
Also, ported cabs (using the same drive unit) do not have an extended range vs sealed - the opposite is true. Ported cabs just have a response that is flatter lower, to the point of the port tuning at which the response falls off a cliff. A sealed cab will start to roll off earlier, but much more gradually providing you with lower bass frequencies, but not as much of them. This tends to sound more natural to the ear vs a ported which can be boomy or hyped in the lower midrange/upper bass (giving the impression of more low bass, without actually having more).
Further, some designers attempt to make this psychoacoustic trick even more effective (usually with smaller speakers or ones with relatively high resonant frequencies) set the port tuning so as to produce a bump in the response just before the response rolls off. I find this sort of cabinet most displeasing soundwise, but I dunno if any instrument cabs are made this way or not.
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I'm with Carlo Granny.
What the chart misses is the "texture" or feel of the sound.(how's that for a troll)
Now compare Tubas. . . say fibreglass to brass, to nickel plated same notes different texture and overnotes.
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That's the thing - I agree with Carlo as well, it was just the reasons for that preference that I was speaking to.
Anyway, in all that carry on I forgot to mention to Dr B: make sure you run those RH cabs (at least the bottom one if you stack them) with the port on the floor (vs to the side as I've seen in some of your pics before... or someone's pics on this board anyway). It effectively extends the horn (think 60's era hifi corner horn, e.g Klipsch) and therefore increases bass response.
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...
Actually, that diagram is a little unfair (i am biased against ported cabs ;)) but I'm too lazy to redraw it and it still demonstrates the basic idea well (if not the relative magnitude of the differences).
It's more than "a little unfair." Obviously you'd rather severely misrepresent the differences than to draw it accurately.
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My ear is the only measure I need! It's not an oscilloscope, but it sends the data to my brain just the same.
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My ear is the only measure I need! It's not an oscilloscope, but it sends the data to my brain just the same.
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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It's more than "a little unfair." Obviously you'd rather severely misrepresent the differences than to draw it accurately.
I was honest about it. And you're just insulting. Do better in half a minute in MS Paint.
It DOES illustrate the principle (not the magnitude, as stated). I wasn't trying to convince anyone which is better (because, for the 3rd time, I agreed with Carlo on that preference. The point in all that was to clarify that ported cabs don't have extended range, though it might sound like it sometimes, and that sealed don't have particularly good transient response). I think the TR thing is especially useful to know, the other thing is really mostly down to preference.
Would you prefer I remove it? Cause I would if you really think it's "severe" despite any indication of scale and the blatant disclaimer to that effect. Just thought it would help to visualize what I was saying.
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I would prefer that you do it accurately in the future if you're going to do it at all.
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Wouldn't it be different for every cabinet tested anyway? I would think there's no one "correct" graph. Each graph would be different when you're measuring an actual cabinets. I think I understand that.
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Wouldn't it be different for every cabinet tested anyway? I would think there's no one "correct" graph. Each graph would be different when you're measuring an actual cabinets. I think I understand that.
True, but in any given cabinet there would not be that kind of difference between sealed and ported. The principles are known. There's no reason to post a deliberately inaccurate graph.
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It wasn't deliberately inaccurate (how you can say it's severely inaccurate when it lacks any scale on the axes continues to tickle me); it was half-assed (because the point wasn't to be accurate, so much as show relative shapes, without making any comment about magnitude). I removed it, so it be done with.
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I never saw the graph, but here are my observations:
Sealed (aka acoustic suspension) has, by defenition, poor transient response
If the cabinet is sealed, below tuning frequency, lower frequencies are attenuated logarithmically, which if plotted relative to amplitude, produces a linear acoustic rolloff, but the sound itself is still being reproduced at the same "speed"- movement relative to time (frequency: measured in Hertz) and "position"- rate of frequency relative to time (phase: measured in degrees). As a matter of fact, sealed cabinets have the BEST innate transient response because there are no phase interactions distorting the output. Ported cabinets have port-phase distortion and open-backed cabinets have secondary coupling (boundary reflections) interacting directly with the driver.
.... then again, so do bass reflex
"Bass reflex" is just a fancy way of saying "ported."
The best transient response comes from open back
Until tuning frequency, ALL cabinets act as open-backed. In an open-backed speaker installation, the low frequency limit is the cone resonance. Below that, the driver literally has nothing to 'grab' and converts all of the power below resonance into heat until either the voicecoil burns up (at the thermal limit- aka "RMS" wattage rating) or the cone suspension tears loose, both resulting in a destroyed driver if enough power below cone resonance is fed to the driver.
(sacrificing bass response unless you put it in a very large baffle)
...in which case, you've just made it into some sort of enclosed cabinet.
and transmission lines (which require a box that is even bigger than a sealed, assuming the same drive unit).
Transmission lines are tuned subwoofer cabinets (or any portion of the audio spectrum for that matter) that are baffled both above and below a portion of the audio bandwidth.
This is because the speaker is operating in a box that mimics "free air"
No, it doesn't. It is in a box that is acoustically tuned like a crossover to air-load the driver in a way that it is only operating in in small section of the audio bandwidth. It's cheaper and easier to just do it electronically, which is why crossovers are so common and transmission line cabinets are not.
(vs the pressurized nature of a sealed or even ported, aka strategically leaky sealed box). This minimizes the amount of force required to move the cone so it can react faster whereas sealed cabs hold the speaker back due to internal air pressure (the trade off here is that the speaker can handle a bit more power due to this added resistence to movement; it becomes harder to push the cone/voice coil to the extremes of travel).
You have it backwards. The description of the physical process is mostly correct, but the use of terminology and conclusions are incorrect. A transmission line cabinet only acoustically loads the speaker in the portion of the audio spectrum where it is the most efficient, but it most certainly DOES air-load the driver.
Also, ported cabs (using the same drive unit) do not have an extended range vs sealed
Correct
Ported cabs just have a response that is flatter lower, to the point of the port tuning at which the response falls off a cliff.
...not so. Ported cabinets have tuning "bumps" at and above tuning frequency (in octave intervals) caused by the phase interaction of the primary baffle, cabinet airspace and the secondary baffle, the port, which produces a VERY uneven frequency response and phase distortion, but with the benefit of better efficiency below natural resonance of a space/driver combination until port frequency, below which point, the driver behaves like it is in open air.
A sealed cab will start to roll off earlier, but much more gradually providing you with lower bass frequencies, but not as much of them.
Correct
This tends to sound more natural to the ear vs a ported which can be boomy or hyped in the lower midrange/upper bass (giving the impression of more low bass, without actually having more).
No, there are "more;" they are the tuning "bumps" I was talking about. Additionally, because of the port's secondary baffling effect, some frequencies are cancelled while others are boosted by the tuning resonances, the phase distortion discussed earlier.
Further, some designers attempt to make this psychoacoustic trick even more effective (usually with smaller speakers or ones with relatively high resonant frequencies) set the port tuning so as to produce a bump in the response just before the response rolls off. I find this sort of cabinet most displeasing soundwise, but I dunno if any instrument cabs are made this way or not.
That is the characteristic inherent in ALL ported cabinets, phase distortion, and it's not a psychoacoutic phenomena. It is measureable in a number of ways. By adding a secondary baffle, a port, connected to the outside air column, a ported cabinet will ALWAYS have phase distortion because of the time/frequency interaction between the two baffles caused by the physical difference in locations of the baffles.
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Wow, my head is spinning. Interesting stuff for sure. It could take a lifetime to learn all of the acoustic/physics behind cab design! I'm short on time these days for picking up new complex info, but I appreciate the comments. I do know that stuffing the MM cabs with the acoustic stuffin' did help the bottom end of things. A more pleasing tone out of the cabs now.
That being said, I just go by what my ear hears and transmits to my brain. If I like the sound, I'm ;D. If I don't care for the sound, I'm :-[. I want a strong loud output with balance across the range of my bass. I want some tubey warmth without tons of distortion. My brain wants to hear something like my old B-15 but a little better and loud enough to compete with my bandmates. That's pretty much it.
Not to go too far off here, I do have another question about one of my speakers. When playing through the MM amp into the MM cabs, one speaker emits an audible sound that will be hard for me to describe. It frankly sounds like the paper cone moving in and out. If I move away from the cab, I can't hear it, but sitting closer, I can hear that "paper" like sound as the cone vibrates. It's not distortion or speaker farting, it's a mechanical vibration coming from the speaker itself. I hope that makes sense!
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If the cabinet is sealed, below tuning frequency, lower frequencies are attenuated logarithmically, which if plotted relative to amplitude, produces a linear acoustic rolloff, but the sound itself is still being reproduced at the same "speed"- movement relative to time (frequency: measured in Hertz) and "position"- rate of frequency relative to time (phase: measured in degrees). As a matter of fact, sealed cabinets have the BEST innate transient response because there are no phase interactions distorting the output. Ported cabinets have port-phase distortion and open-backed cabinets have secondary coupling (boundary reflections) interacting directly with the driver.
You are wrong, my man. First, transient response <> phase response though poor phase response can ruin the benefits of good transient response. Confusion of transient and phase response is additionally not helped by the fact that both can be measured using the same test - square wave response (but different parts of the test speak to transient vs phase response characteristics). Transient response is merely how quickly the transducer will react to program signal input and, accordingly, start moving from it's point of equilibrium. Phase response is how coherant the aggregate response of the entire enclosure is with respect to the given program element that is being reproduced - e.g. in a multiway system in the crossover region, the tweet and woof can be reproducing the same program element, but they don't (without a lot of design work) do so in the exact same time frame. Additionally, they are not a point source (unless coaxial) so the distance to your ear creates a further timing differential and therefore phase discrepancy... and yes this happens with ports and those other things you mentioned too). The fact of the matter is that due to the nature of how acoustic suspension cabinets work, the driver requires more power to move as it is facing greater mechanical resistance due to internal cab air pressure. That is by definition, poor transient response.
Further, sealed cabs do have at least one critical phase-related issue: backwave distortion (ported suffer from this as well).
I never made an assertion as to whether the TR of a sealed is better or worse than ported, leaving the matter to something like 'both are not so great in that regard' compared to other types.
Yes, open back do have a major phase issue, but only (significant) starting at the point where the distance from the cone to the rear opening is 1/4 of the wavelength of the frequency, which is why the bass response disappears there (cancellation due to approximately opposite phase from the front and rear; I say approx because of the time it takes for the sound to travel around the cabinet makes it not exactly opposite even if it is a near-negligible difference - I wouldn't be so particular about that detail if I wasn't talking to you, as you tend to jump on me for such oversimplifications), but since the driver is essentially operating in "free air" it has the lowest mechanical resistance to movement possible and therefore better transient response than a sealed cab. It is actually the characteristic that (at least somewhat technically inclined) open back lovers (guitards as well as hifi) cite as the reason they love them so much.
"Bass reflex" is just a fancy way of saying "ported."
Yep, I used both terms and thought I was clear on that (... though to be really accurate, not all cabinets with a port are bass reflex - see Tapered Quarter Wave Tubes, Transmission Lines and Bandpass for example). I kinda fail to see your point here; maybe I typoed somehow in my original post and you didn't include that in the quote.
Until tuning frequency, ALL cabinets act as open-backed. In an open-backed speaker installation, the low frequency limit is the cone resonance. Below that, the driver literally has nothing to 'grab' and converts all of the power below resonance into heat until either the voicecoil burns up (at the thermal limit- aka "RMS" wattage rating) or the cone suspension tears loose, both resulting in a destroyed driver if enough power below cone resonance is fed to the driver.
With regard to frequency response, yes (if maybe a bit oversimplified, see for example backwave distortion, which affects sealed and ported cabs but not open backs; close enough though). Transient response I am not 100% sure, but doubt that it has no effect until resonance (but it is probably maximal approaching resonance). Phase response will vary among cab types at least slightly due to size/shape (e.g. baffle diffraction is a function of cab shape/size vs wavelength, rather than a function of speaker resonance).
...in which case, you've just made it into some sort of enclosed cabinet.
No - I think you misunderstood me here. I did not mean (capital letters) Infinite Baffle, so much as (small letters) a larger baffle (than, say, a guitar combo) - see open back hifi speakers; the baffles can be multiple meters wide and tall and still open back - yes there is still a point of phase cancellation, but the idea is to make the baffle large enough so that this point is moved further downwards, ostensibly below the effective range of the drive unit or below the range of human hearing, but that is not always possible/feasible due to the dimensions/wavelengths involved. Not very practical but some people swear by them (not me, but never really tried them out due to too damn big).
Transmission lines are tuned subwoofer cabinets (or any portion of the audio spectrum for that matter) that are baffled both above and below a portion of the audio bandwidth.
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No, it doesn't. It is in a box that is acoustically tuned like a crossover to air-load the driver in a way that it is only operating in in small section of the audio bandwidth. It's cheaper and easier to just do it electronically, which is why crossovers are so common and transmission line cabinets are not.
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You have it backwards. The description of the physical process is mostly correct, but the use of terminology and conclusions are incorrect. A transmission line cabinet only acoustically loads the speaker in the portion of the audio spectrum where it is the most efficient, but it most certainly DOES air-load the driver.
I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing here (some things you said make me think you're talking about Bandpass cabinets, but not sure). Transmission line speaker cabinets are nothing like a crossover and not just for subwoofer (edit: oh I see you don't disagree with that, my bad). They solve the essential problem of what to do with the speaker's backwave by either harnessing it (as useful additional bass response), or nullifying it (depending on whether the line is terminated to a port or a wall, respectively) using what is essentially a delay line (usually with mechanical Low Pass Filter, aka stuffing) which puts the driver's backwave in phase with the front.
This enclosure type is most often used for woofers in a multiway system (or, yes, standalone subwoofers) or full range drivers, but also (at the peak of their popularity in home hifi - the 70s) for midrange drivers in 3-way designs (and since 3 ways as well as TLs are mostly out of style we don't see that anymore).
In the case of a TL that is terminated to a port (99% of commercial and DIY specimens I have ever seen - closed TLs I have mostly seen in use when it is a midrange that is in the TL) the driver does operate in what is very close (if not exactly) free air conditions, as there is no internal cabinet pressure (from cone movement changing internal volume) since there is no bottleneck at the port terminus which is generally at least an order of magnitude, or thereabout , larger than a bass reflex port and presents no mechanical resistance. A design parameter of TLs is for the port (line terminus) to be in the area of 0.8 to 1.5 of the driver's Sd or effective piston area (most often 1 or just a hair more) - this means that there is (little or ) no bottleneck for air moving in and out of the line to maintain equilibrium air pressure and though there may be some effect from having to travel down the line itself (especially if folded to minimise cabinet size) this is negligible (especially compared to sealed/ported).
Anyway, I was talking about these (think of a backloaded horn, with the horn tapered in the opposite direction, or straight in simplified versions.... and linear taper vs log .. and operating on a totally different principle as summarised above):
(http://www.diysubwoofers.org/images/site/tls.gif) (http://p10hifi.net/TLS/projects/nick/aqaSm.gif)
more info here: http://www.t-linespeakers.org/
and not these (bandpass):
(http://www.diysubwoofers.org/images/site/4thordbp.gif) (http://www.diysubwoofers.org/images/site/6thordbp.gif)
...not so. Ported cabinets have tuning "bumps" at and above tuning frequency (in octave intervals) caused by the phase interaction of the primary baffle, cabinet airspace and the secondary baffle, the port, which produces a VERY uneven frequency response and phase distortion, but with the benefit of better efficiency below natural resonance of a space/driver combination until port frequency, below which point, the driver behaves like it is in open air.
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No, there are "more;" they are the tuning "bumps" I was talking about. Additionally, because of the port's secondary baffling effect, some frequencies are cancelled while others are boosted by the tuning resonances, the phase distortion discussed earlier.
Yes, I don't disagree with you here. I was oversimplifying (for your tastes). By 'flater, longer" I meant that the final bass-end rolloff has a delayed start in ported cabs (relative to sealed), which I am sure you agree with from what you have already said.
That is the characteristic inherent in ALL ported cabinets, phase distortion, and it's not a psychoacoutic phenomena. It is measureable in a number of ways. By adding a secondary baffle, a port, connected to the outside air column, a ported cabinet will ALWAYS have phase distortion because of the time/frequency interaction between the two baffles caused by the physical difference in locations of the baffles.
What do you mean by the first use of the word 'that' here?
Yes, there are measurable response phenomena here but what I was talking about is the tendency for the auditory system to hear the extended flat bass response (with caveats as explained in the point above - yes a simplification, but you must know what I mean - compared to the early rolloff start of a sealed cabinet there is an additional period of relatively flat response... and we all know no speaker is litterally flat anywhere in it's response, or not for very long anyway) of a ported cab and feel like there is more and lower bass there which does not actually measurably exist - somewhat as if the rollof slope of the ported cab was more like that of a sealed - like the ear just does not compute a generally broadband signal just stopping right there /expects more.
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Wow, my head is spinning.
No wonder, acoustics is an endless education.
It´s great to see (and read) PBG´s thorough feedback (!) on the subject, but when two ´opposite poles ´have contrasting views on a subject it is sometimes difficult for the average reader to follow the thread and even more difficult to sort out what´s fact and what´s bullshit. Even common sense sometimes falls short when it comes to acoustics..
But the facts are here for those who see (and hear) them :)
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Not to go too far off here, I do have another question about one of my speakers. When playing through the MM amp into the MM cabs, one speaker emits an audible sound that will be hard for me to describe. It frankly sounds like the paper cone moving in and out. If I move away from the cab, I can't hear it, but sitting closer, I can hear that "paper" like sound as the cone vibrates. It's not distortion or speaker farting, it's a mechanical vibration coming from the speaker itself. I hope that makes sense!
Yeah, it makes sense - an optimal speaker is a silent one :mrgreen:
Without ´researching´anything before answering, I have once in a musicman cab found a loose T washer that made a strange sound that was present at low volumes. A wrong screw had been used, and the nut was not tight against the wood.
Also, check the hardboard gasket around the cone (if you have one), it can make a slight noise if partially loose.
Hope it helps.
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...never mind.
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Wow, my head is spinning. Interesting stuff for sure. It could take a lifetime to learn all of the acoustic/physics behind cab design!
It's nowhere near as "sciency" as it sounds; I was just being very specific and dry to lessen the chance for misinterpretation. Ironically, what cab tuning has taught us is that simple and direct designs generally are the ones most folks like. Think about how many "hi-tech" bass cabinets have come and gone since the SVT coffin rolled out in 1969. ...and the stage standard is what? BTW, don't confuse phase distortion, sound "smear," with the more familiar amplitude distortion, aka "distortion;" they're different.
Not to go too far off here, I do have another question about one of my speakers. When playing through the MM amp into the MM cabs, one speaker emits an audible sound that will be hard for me to describe. It frankly sounds like the paper cone moving in and out. If I move away from the cab, I can't hear it, but sitting closer, I can hear that "paper" like sound as the cone vibrates. It's not distortion or speaker farting, it's a mechanical vibration coming from the speaker itself. I hope that makes sense!
It's something you don't hear much about in the bass world: cone "cry." Basically, it's the mechanical/vibrational resonance where the amount of power being fed into a speaker causes the cone to have pressure feedback and the speaker breaks free of the amplifier momentarily and "farts." It's not the common "bass cab fart"- that's actually a combination of port chuffing and phase problems, but the most analogous way of thinking about it is to envision the process of making artificial fart noises like kids make. Most modern bass cabinets use high powered drivers that never mechanically get to that point before they toast their voice coils. It literally varies from speaker to speaker. You could try to add doping (mass) to the offending cone and it should move the resonance below the range of the cab. You'll lose some midrange efficiency, but it shouldn't cause any problems and I doubt you'll notice much a change other than the bad noise being gone.
You are wrong, my man.
My comments stand. I have better things to do than argue with someone whose ignorance is only surpassed by his ignorance of that ignorance.
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Ah, Confucius said,"To know what you don't know is to possess knowledge."
Anyway, could you give me some clues on the speaker noise I asked about? "I do have another question about one of my speakers. When playing through the MM amp into the MM cabs, one speaker emits an audible sound that will be hard for me to describe. It frankly sounds like the paper cone moving in and out. If I move away from the cab, I can't hear it, but sitting closer, I can hear that "paper" like sound as the cone vibrates. It's not distortion or speaker farting, it's a mechanical vibration coming from the speaker itself. I hope that makes sense!"
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Anyway, could you give me some clues on the speaker noise I asked about?
I answered your question in my last post and amptech had some good suggestions, too. I think you may have glossed over what I said thinking I was replying to something else. Don't let tech jargon make you tune out; like I said, it's not heavy science. Doping is just a cone treatment, a light white glue or varnish coating that stiffens the cone itself and adds mass to it. Sanding sealer works great too. The idea is to keep the finish extremely thin so that it soaks into the paper of the cone or all you'll end up doing is making a hard topcoat that is brittle and will impede cone motion and end up cracking and damaging the cone paper. Speakers become more prone to cone cry as they age because the cone paper becomes more brittle and flexible over time. That's why 'broken in' speakers are louder than new ones.
Only my last sentence was directed towards anything else, and the quote should make it pretty clear what that was.
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Oops, my fault, sorry I missed that! I got lost in all of the posts. This is a reconed speaker. Is that unusual?
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If it's a recone, there's a decent possibility that the cone could be misaligned, not enough to hang in the gap, but enough to wobble in it.
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If it's a recone, there's a decent possibility that the cone could be misaligned, not enough to hang in the gap, but enough to wobble in it.
Thanks. Is this something I should worry about or have corrected?
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Thanks. Is this something I should worry about or have corrected?
If it is indeed the cone that is misaligned, there is no other way than to re-recone it I´m afraid.
It is possible though, to check - you can remove the dust cap and measure or look if it´s OK.
Beware, doing so may very well damage the speaker!
If the sound does not bother you at playing volume, just leave it as-is.
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If it is indeed the cone that is misaligned, there is no other way than to re-recone it I´m afraid.
It is possible though, to check - you can remove the dust cap and measure or look if it´s OK.
Beware, doing so may very well damage the speaker!
If the sound does not bother you at playing volume, just leave it as-is.
Thanks. At volume, I can't hear it so that's good! I think I will just leave it and if it should bite the dust, I'll have it reconed again.
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To be sure that it is indeed a coil alignment problem, all you have to do is take off the speaker grille and gently push the cone back and let it rebound. If you hear scratching, the recone was done wrong and will fail in the near-term anyway.
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thanks guys, I'll check it out today!
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To be sure that it is indeed a coil alignment problem, all you have to do is take off the speaker grille and gently push the cone back and let it rebound. If you hear scratching, the recone was done wrong and will fail in the near-term anyway.
Well, I did gently move the cone in and out and I can hear a faint scratching sound. If I press a little more on one side vs. the other it's louder. Oh well, back to the shop!
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That should have been caught before it was returned to you. There is no way (that I can think of off the top of my head) you could cause that to happen yourself without taking the speaker completely apart. Even if it was just a bad recone kit, the speaker should have had a motion test. What you're hearing is the voice coil scratching the sides of the coil gap.
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Makes sense to me, too. At least the speaker guy is taking it back and fixing it at no extra charge. Nice guy!
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happened to an old EV speaker after about 15 years or so of use.....
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happened to an old EV speaker after about 15 years or so of use.....
That's a different story. Repeated use had heated up the coil enough to make it deform and catch in the gap. A recent recone doing that wouldn't have time to deform. It would either blow or lock up if it was hit with too much power. Out of curiosity, what cab was it in? In theory, ported cabs should be much more prone to this than sealed.
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It was in that standard ported EV designed (theil or something like that) with the ports on the bottom that have removable blocks of wood. i can actually feel it rubbing as i move the cone. Have to get iot rebuilt as soon as I find A JOB and have some money moving in the opposite direction of what it has for most of the current year.
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I figured it was a ported cab. When you get it reconed, add a large capacitor (you'll have to know what the cab's tuning frequency is and amount of power being fed to it to calculate its value) to the crossover to act as a high-pass filter and that should keep it from happening any more. People who use eq filters ahead of the power section don't realize that amplfier operation can produce sub and infrasonic power on its own. When you put the cap in there, anything below the r/c curve never gets to hit the speaker and is safely shunted to ground. The end result is that your speakers will last longer, be louder and more efficent (sub-tuning power dramatically affects resonant frequency response) and tighter sounding.
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That's going to be a big/expensive cap.
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That's going to be a big/expensive cap.
There are lots of surplus doorknob and oil caps on eBay for next to nothing all the time. When they were new, they cost almost as much as the RF tubes they fed, but since transmitters are mostly s/s now, good quality NOS caps, even made the USA, have flooded the market. Old Russian and Eastern European stock is tough as nails and costs less than pennies on the dollar to what went into making it.