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Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: nofi on May 23, 2014, 07:03:22 AM

Title: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: nofi on May 23, 2014, 07:03:22 AM
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music-arts/led-zeppelin-sued-lifting-riff-stairway-heaven-article-1.1799433

who really cares anymore. just one more suit against the band. add it to the pile. :o
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: rahock on May 23, 2014, 07:38:12 AM
Interesting thing is that Randy California did nothing about it when he was alive :-\.
Rick
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: westen44 on May 23, 2014, 07:59:51 AM
Interesting thing is that Randy California did nothing about it when he was alive :-\.
Rick

From what I've read, not being able to afford the legal expenses.  He was playing in a restaurant for food in the days before his death which came about trying to rescue his son from drowning.  At least his estate has said they didn't pursue things from not having money.  My personal impression of Randy California is that he just let things happen in life and didn't particularly try to be assertive.  But I could be wrong about that.  Just a guess on my part. 
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gearHed289 on May 23, 2014, 08:36:28 AM
I listened to the Spirit track, and it's pretty obvious where the opening section of Stairway came from. However, there's a whole lot more to Stairway than that, and I don't hear any of Plants vocal melody. The estate may or may not be entitled to SOMETHING, but Zep certainly didn't steal the SONG Stairway to Heaven from Spirit.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 23, 2014, 09:49:18 AM
Yawn, how old is that?! Of course did Jimmy Page draw the intro from Randy California (Spirit and Zep shared gigs), he has even admitted it. Likewise Randy knew when he heard it and was actually flattered (he is on record for that). People didn't always go for each other's throats back then or Deep Purple would have been dead after stealing the Child in Time intro note for note from It's A Beautiful Day in 1969. Rather than suing, It's a beautiful day laughed and stole a song from Purple on their next album.

California didn't have the money to sue Page? Don't make the forest echo with laughter, the contingency fee lawyers would have been queuing up from his house all the way up to, errrm, Valhalla or wherever Led Zeppelin live.

Randy California was a nice man, a fine guitarist and consumate performer, his band was not "little-known" (which moron wrote that in that article?!), he even played with Deep Purple when Blackmore had hepatitis (and Ian Gillan loved his slide playing during Child in Time) and he died trying to save his son. That's more than a decent track record. His descendants seem to be greedy gold-diggers though.

Did I mention that I always found that Stairway intro twee and that the whole song is hugely overrated? Give me Kashmir or In my Time of Dying or even The Battle of Evermore anyday. Also, can anybody explain to me what Stairway to Heaven (the lyrics) is actually about?
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: westen44 on May 23, 2014, 10:39:41 AM
Randy California's uncle owned a night club in California.  As a teenager, he would go there, of course, and see the famous people.  Briefly, his family moved to New York City.  In a chance encounter, he met Jimi Hendrix who ended up asking him to play in his band Jimmy James and the Blue Flames.  It was Jimi who gave him his "California" nickname as his last name.  They played for three months for seven dollars a night before Jimi was asked by Chas Chandler to go to England.  Randy was invited to go with him, but he was too young, still only fifteen.  Just a few years later with Hendrix's death, it seems that that had an effect in contributing to his depression.  I don't know the details of all that happened with Spirit, but he appeared to be disillusioned with it eventually.  It was after leaving Spirit that he made the Kapt. Kopter and the Fabulous Twirly Birds album.  It's of some interest to me because of the Hendrix influence.  Noel Redding is on a few tracks under another name.  I think it was not long after that that he went on the Deep Purple tour.  I haven't heard any of those various albums he released after that, although I gather there weren't many and they most likely didn't have much commercial success. 

I'm reading just now that Randy was working on releasing a Kapt. Kopter 2 just prior to his death.  I wasn't aware of that. 



Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: rahock on May 23, 2014, 03:29:57 PM
Maybe someone here is familiar with the Jimmy Page era Yardbirds song that contains  about half of what later became of Stairway to Heaven. I can't remember the album or name of the song, but back when Stairway to Heaven was new, a buddy of mine brought it to my attention. At the time Zep was telling some BS story about how the song came together like magic in matter of minutes. My friend put the old Yardbirds tune on and it certainly sounded like the framework for Stairway to me.
Does anyone know what song I'm talking about? ???
Rick
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gweimer on May 23, 2014, 04:34:56 PM
[Further, the chord progression in "Stairway To Heaven" is incredibly similiar to a song by the Chocolate Watch Band, "And She's Lonely." The Yardbirds played with the Chocolate Watch Band during Page's tenure.]

I found this in digging around.  Here's the song - listen about 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Noxzn3RJjn4
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gweimer on May 23, 2014, 04:37:04 PM
More fuel for the fire - http://www.furious.com/perfect/yardbirds2.html (http://www.furious.com/perfect/yardbirds2.html)
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Dave W on May 23, 2014, 07:53:37 PM
The lawsuit is news. Page's history is old news. Since Mark Andes is working with the attorney on this, you can bet that he wants some compensation, NTTAWWT. It's not just some altruistic attempt to get an acknowledgement.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: westen44 on May 23, 2014, 08:13:22 PM
The lawsuit is news. Page's history is old news. Since Mark Andes is working with the attorney on this, you can bet that he wants some compensation, NTTAWWT. It's not just some altruistic attempt to get an acknowledgement.

The attorney for the California estate isn't known for his altruism; that's true. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/10851780/Lawyer-suing-Led-Zeppelin-heavily-criticised-by-judge.html
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Denis on May 24, 2014, 04:44:13 AM
Everyone stole from everyone. Blues is a history of stolen music and riffs. Rock has a history of stealing from blues, classical, etc. Lots of bands in the '60s recorded Beatles, Rolling Stones and Dylan songs on their albums while those bands were still recording. I doubt anyone would get away with that now.

If Randy C didn't care back then, why should people worry about it now?
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 24, 2014, 06:26:32 AM
I guess he wasn't the type and just didn't want to do it, there must have been enough people that tried to talk him into it. Suing Zep for stealing musical ideas was all the rage - these days I believe they have to even co-credit Whole Lotta Love. It would have been easy enough, the intros are darn near identical and it is not a chord voicing you are likely to make up on your own (though I never liked it, but I sure wouldn't have minded getting the royalties).

If I was Page I'd probably buy Randy's widow a house and finance the education of her kids/grandchildren - as a token of appreciation for inspiration, I don't believe that such a gesture would put a sizeable part of his wealth managers out of work. If she wanted more than that I'd probably see it through. Fact is that Spirit never had the clout to project that song component to the masses - it needed a platform like Led Zep IV (and probably Plant's silly hippie lyrics laid over it) to find its way into the guitar stores ...
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: OldManC on May 24, 2014, 10:15:58 AM
Suing Zep for stealing musical ideas was all the rage - these days I believe they have to even co-credit Whole Lotta Love.

It may be all the rage, but that would only be because Page outright stole what made up most of Zep's first few albums without giving any credit at all to those he stole from. Taurus almost certainly provided the intro for Stairway and some of these do feel more like the "borrowing" that many bands do (of limited pieces and riffs), but others are downright ripoffs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zThdTAWQFAQ

In many circumstances their versions sounded very different (and arguably improved in the case of that Joan Baez one), but that doesn't change at all the fact that Page took the work of previous artists and presented it as his own (including songwriting credits and for publishing purposes).
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: OldManC on May 24, 2014, 10:38:13 AM
Of course, borrowing a riff here and there is a time honored tradition in rock and roll, right, Uwe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvXxlXg_V-k

 :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Dave W on May 24, 2014, 11:39:45 AM
There's borrowing, and there's outright lifting of whole songs or significant parts of songs. Page has been more blatant about it. Maybe even more so than Dylan.

The attorney for the California estate isn't known for his altruism; that's true. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/10851780/Lawyer-suing-Led-Zeppelin-heavily-criticised-by-judge.html

What a piece of work! He's practically begging to be sanctioned.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Pilgrim on May 24, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Does it strike anyone else that the lawyer's name "Malofiy" is curiously similar to the "Malfoy" family in the Harry Potter series?

(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130219114422/harrypotter/images/thumb/9/9b/DH-Promotional-Picture-draco-malfoy-27114107-960-1280.jpg/180px-DH-Promotional-Picture-draco-malfoy-27114107-960-1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 26, 2014, 05:19:03 AM
Of course, borrowing a riff here and there is a time honored tradition in rock and roll, right, Uwe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvXxlXg_V-k

 :mrgreen:

Wait a minnit, did a Kiss Army grunt of all people just make a snide remark about DP's originality?  :mrgreen: Purple have never been anything but frank about what and from whom they stole, they even joked about it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lShLkYady0I

though Maria Quiet uses just the notes of SOTW, not the all determinative bludgeoning rhythmic placement of them. But Blackmore listened to Jazz and also played Jazz guitar (had a Jazz guitarist as a teacher), so who knows. Somehow though, DP's lifting of riffs, never led to litigation (nor did Purple ever sue someone for lifting their riffs). And they were never afraid of crediting other people: the first three albums are full of re-arranged covers from writers as diverse as Lennon-McCartney, Neil Diamond and Donovan. One of the reasons Blackmore left DP was even that they would not put a cover of Quatermass' Black Sheep of the Family on Strombringer, instead it landed on Rainbow's debut.

And this song - though credited to all five of DP, is not written by any one of them at all. Rather they heard a black street musician play it (it was his own composition) and they bought the complete song off him in a fit of enchantment with it. I hope he got a good price, he at least never sued.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOIwL6UhRV0

The middle section might be something Coverdale and Hughes might have jointly come up with though, it sounds like other stuff they did on Stormbringer.

Zep got sued a lot for their songs, there must be something that irks people badly about the way they do it or perhaps it is just the vast amounts of money they made. One thing you can say about them is that whatever they played, they sure made it sound like their own.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Granny Gremlin on May 26, 2014, 06:18:30 AM
Did I mention that I always found that Stairway intro twee and that the whole song is hugely overrated? Give me Kashmir or In my Time of Dying or even The Battle of Evermore anyday. Also, can anybody explain to me what Stairway to Heaven (the lyrics) is actually about?

I'm with you on that, but it did pretty much single-handedly define  and legitimise (in a not just for pussies way) the subgenre of epic rock ballads.  There is no accounting for taste amongst the masses, I'm afraid.

Also, I hope you're being facetious Uwe, cause you gotta know that with Zep, if it ain't about women/sex, it's about drugs (99% of the time; sure there's an exception or two somewhere). 

Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 26, 2014, 07:25:54 AM
No, I'm serious! For a non-native speaker, Led Zep is excruciatingly difficult to understand the way Plant stretches and bends the words. And if you have their lyrics before you, you are none the smarter, you tell me what this means:

"There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to Heaven
When she gets there, she knows if the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for
Ooh-ooh-hoo, hoo-ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh
And she's buying a stairway to Heaven

There's a sign on the wall, but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings
In a tree by the brook there's a songbird who sings sometimes
All of our thoughts are misgiven

Ooh, it makes me wonder
Ooh, it makes me wonder

There's a feeling I get when I look to the west
And my spirit is crying for leaving
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those who stand looking

Ooh, it makes me wonder
Ooh, really makes me wonder

And it's whispered that soon, if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter

Oh-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-ho-oh

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now
It's just a spring clean for the May Queen
Yes, there are two paths you can go by
But in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on

And it makes me wonder
Oh-oh-ho

Your head is humming and it won't go - in case you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow
And did you know your stairway lies on the whispering wind, oh

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all, yeah
To be a rock and not to roll

And she's buying a stairway to Heaven"


"And if you listen very hard, the tune will come to you at last ..." - my ass! Maybe the tune, but not the lyrics! I've only realized just now that the lady in the song wishes to acquire a stairway to heaven, I always thought she was "biding a stairway to heaven". And until today I always wondered what does the "hedgehog", Plant keeps singing about, have to do with it ...  :mrgreen: I only now realize that it is "hedgerow".

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/11/05/hedgehog10b.jpg)

"Hey, I'm the bustling hedgehog from Uwe's Stairway to Heaven, whaddaya mean they're not singing about me?!!! I'm your spiky subliminal message!!!"


I always found the lyrics in Alice Cooper's, Ian Gillan's, Greg Lake's, Mick Jagger's, Ozzy Osbourne's vocal delivery - you can really name almost anyone here - much easier to understand than Plant. Truth be told, that was always one of the aspects that bugged me about Led Zep.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Granny Gremlin on May 26, 2014, 08:01:20 AM
OK fine.  Plant was reading a little too much Tolkein.  That first verse is pretty obviously about (trying to) scoring drugs though... and the last one is about being on them. 

I never thought about the middle too much, but if I'm on the spot here, I'm gonna go with drought (drugs not water), new batch hitting the streets, and the cognitive dissonance as to whether to indulge or not.  With the final line hammering it home what the choice ended up being. ... keep in mind I'm not a native speaker either.

Yes, when it came to lyrics, Zep was quite a bit more flowery than most Classic Rock bands  (which I tend to find a little too on-the-nose for my tastes these days; especially Alice, as much as tween me was into them - never any mystery there).  It's a fine line between being poetic and cryptic.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Captcolour on May 26, 2014, 08:04:43 AM
Rereading the lyrics you posted, if you look at it from a religious perspective, the lady and the gold represent false gods and idols made of gold used to buy your way into heaven.  Enter the piper (Jesus or perhaps insert your favorite religion), as a different pathway to entering heaven.  The "tune will come to you at last" is hearing the piper's tune in choosing that over what the lady with the gold has to offer.

Or maybe not.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: OldManC on May 26, 2014, 11:15:11 AM
Wait a minnit, did a Kiss Army grunt of all people just make a snide remark about DP's originality?  :mrgreen: Purple have never been anything but frank about what and from whom they stole, they even joked about it,

...

Zep got sued a lot for their songs, there must be something that irks people badly about the way they do it or perhaps it is just the vast amounts of money they made. One thing you can say about them is that whatever they played, they sure made it sound like their own.

I knew my little joke would get a response, but not such a healthy one!  ;D

A tip of the hat can span generations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3tB0bdn-Jg


As for Zep's stealing and why they get singled out... Bands lifting parts and borrowing riffs is a time honored tradition. I think it was Steven Tyler that said something to the effect of: amateurs borrow/pros steal, but even there he was talking about making new songs out of what was stolen. I can't speak for anyone else, but what bothers me is that Page and company took songs that others wrote and recorded and stole whole verses and more, or took other bands' arrangements and claimed them as their own, or took whole songs outright, and in each instance, credited either Page alone or Page and other band members on the records and in publishing, where the real money is. That's not tipping the hat, it's bashing someone over the head with a club and stealing his wallet. I fully recognize that Zep made most of those songs their own (and improved on many as well) and many of us would never have heard those songs if not for them, but none of that excuses them for claiming those compositions as their own and depriving the rightful creators of whatever remuneration they deserved as composers of those songs.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 26, 2014, 12:11:50 PM
Tolkien ... groan ...    :-\ His books must be among the most overrated pieces of literature ever. I find them dreary and their message could be condensed to one page.

And what I wrote here

"I always found the lyrics in Alice Cooper's, Ian Gillan's, Greg Lake's, Mick Jagger's, Ozzy Osbourne's vocal delivery - you can really name almost anyone here - much easier to understand than Plant. Truth be told, that was always one of the aspects that bugged me about Led Zep."

was perhaps a bit misleading: What I meant to say was that I have a hard time understanding Plant's lyrics phonetically, much harder than with other singers. That I find them hippie-inane once I have understood them phonetically is another matter. Tolkien alright ... escapist nonsense without even any humor to it.

But at least now I have two interpretations: Bruce says it's about God, Jake says it's about buying drugs. And Karl Marx who said that all religion is opium for the masses makes sense of it all then.  :mrgreen: That said, no one has explained the hedgehog yet!
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gweimer on May 26, 2014, 12:45:51 PM
The secret to effective vocal delivery is well-placed, and drawn out vowels.  You just fill in the rest after that.   :o
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: patman on May 26, 2014, 04:38:05 PM
I always thought Tolkien was a creepy allegory about Nazi Germany...
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 26, 2014, 04:53:55 PM
Or about the Soviet Union ... different theories abound. If the hobbit saga is supposed to be a veiled criticism of totalitarian regimes then frankly I prefer Orwell's 1984 or Animal Farm as a piece of literature. Or Huxley's Brave New World. In contrast, Lord of the Rings is so apolitical it would have even escaped Nazi censorship. To give Tolkien credit where credit is due: When a German publishing house wanted to translate The Hobbit into German in 1938, he commendably refused :thumbsup: the whole deal when they demanded a "Certificate of Aryan Pedigree". 

Granted, Lord of the Rings is also a - rather labored - moralistic tale about how ultimate power (the ring) leads even the best (the child-like, innocent hobbits) to ultimate corruption (Frodo's battle against the evil influence of the ring which only he could win, albeit at the expense of his life), but did Tolkien really need 1.000 pages and more to get that across?  :bored:

And  during all those pages Tolkien never manages to depict what makes "the forces of evil/Sauron" tick - lame. I like my villains explained.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Pilgrim on May 26, 2014, 05:08:57 PM
Au contraire, Tolkien is grand epic literature in the mold of Beowulf and the Odyssey.  The point is not in the allegory or hidden messages, it's the use of the language, (Tolkien's life focus) the wonderful mental pictures it paints, and the clever development of Middle-Earth as a world with a rich history, peopled by a variety of races with their own histories and relationships.  The popularity of Tolkien's epic tale is ample testimony to its appeal to millions who appreciate its tone, texture and images.  I'll grant there are a few places in the books which are somewhat heavy sledding, but that's generally true of most worthwhile books. 

Evil such as Sauron never needs to be explained.  It exists, it's very much in action today, and we see it in religious fanatics and small country dictators all the time.  We see its impacts and results constantly, whether the immediate trigger is greed, lust, envy, mental illness or sheer amoral lack of care about any other person or any other thing.  I don't really care why it exists, but I know that it does and is often inexplicable.

Full disclosure: at one time, I could write both Elvish and Dwarvish, having spent some hours poring through the appendices of the third book and working out serviceable alphabets for both.  I'm not a Tolkien fanatic, but I have immense respect for his literary achievements.

Ayn Rand couldn't polish Tolkien's boots!  :o
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 26, 2014, 05:30:00 PM
Hey, I wanted to slip an Ayn Rand comment in, but decided against it, and then what do you do?  :mrgreen: I think even I prefer Ayn as a writer (not as a philosopher!) even though she is kind of wordy too.

I'll grant you that Tokien's linguistic penchant is all over that book and that he carefully crafted Middle Earth as a multi-national and  -racial something. And there would be no Game of Thrones without it, it has certainly left its mark. Game of Thrones has better sex scenes though, Lord of the Rings is rather asexual, don't you think? Neither the Orcs nor the Uruk-Hais ever had any fun with Orc or Uruk-Hai chicks (no wonder they were kind of grumpy!), no competiton for Daenerys Targaryen I'd say, who did not only look cute but also gave birth to three little dragons.  8)

Evil never needs to be explained? But that lacks literary ambition! Didn't Shakespeare explain his (real and perceived) villains rather well? Whether it was Macbeth or Shylock, he tried to make you understand where they are coming from and even his worst villains weren't all-bad, they were still human with feelings and all. With Tolkien, evil is some inhuman force of nature, he didn't even dare give Sauron a real physical body. That is too quasi-religious for me. I don't believe in the existence of evil - however you define it - as a spiritual concept that somehow hovers over mankind.


PS: "Full disclosure: at one time, I could write both Elvish and Dwarvish, having spent some hours poring through the appendices of the third book and working out serviceable alphabets for both."  :mrgreen: You, Sir, are a very brave man!
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Pilgrim on May 26, 2014, 07:40:24 PM

Evil never needs to be explained? But that lacks literary ambition! Didn't Shakespeare explain his (real and perceived) villains rather well? Whether it was Macbeth or Shylock, he tried to make you understand where they are coming from and even his worst villains weren't all-bad, they were still human with feelings and all. With Tolkien, evil is some inhuman force of nature, he didn't even dare give Sauron a real physical body. That is too quasi-religious for me. I don't believe in the existence of evil - however you define it - as a spiritual concept that somehow hovers over mankind.

Perhaps it lacks literary ambition, but considering the epic scope of Tolkien's work including languages, races and history, one can hardly claim that his work lacked either ambition or scope.  He just didn't invest additional energy in trying to explain Evil that didn't require explanation.

I always assumed that Sauron's motivation was a simple lust for total, complete power.  He certainly wouldn't be alone, either in Tolkien's work or in today's real world.



PS: "Full disclosure: at one time, I could write both Elvish and Dwarvish, having spent some hours poring through the appendices of the third book and working out serviceable alphabets for both."  :mrgreen: You, Sir, are a very brave man!

De nada.  In fact, as a thanks for your stewardship (and rabble-rousing) on this estimable forum, I offer this Elvish sentiment: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo "A star shines on the hour of our meeting".
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: 4stringer77 on May 26, 2014, 07:51:25 PM
Blackmore's favorite bands were Mountain and Vanilla Fudge? That's cool if he's being serious but you never know with that guy.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Highlander on May 26, 2014, 11:05:46 PM
California was a genuinely nice person; met him when he toured with Gillan and was briefly based in London... I think he was only interested in the music and his family and as for the business side of things he just let that be someone else's issues...
Andes, I presume, may not be so altruistic...
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 27, 2014, 05:19:27 AM
Blackmore's favorite bands were Mountain and Vanilla Fudge? That's cool if he's being serious but you never know with that guy.

He's dead serious about that. He also likes Abba, Asia, Blondie, pre-Disco Bee Gees, Hendrix, Wishbone Ash, The Scorpions, Jethro Tull, Carmen and Neil Diamond! Anyhing with strong melodies or expression really. Vanilla Fudge were Deep Purple's role model early on and you can hear it on those first three Mk 1 albums very well.

And then Led Zeppelin II was released in October 69 and that changed DP's outlook on their music forever. About a year later - September 70 - they released In Rock which was totally removed from their Mk 1 output. In Rock was a conscious attempt to "outrock" Led Zep II, Blackmore wanted an album without any let-up, an aural onslaught from the beginning to the end. Of course, Led Zep refused the competition game and recorded the acoustic-laden Led Zep III as their next album. Had Zep III been another hard album, I doubt whether DP would have relaxed to be as experimental on Fireball (their album after In Rock) as they were. And after the experiments of Zep III and Fireball, both bands returned a bit to their roots and cut the experimentalism, crafting their respective commercial high points, namely Zep IV and Machine Head. The following albums, Houses of the Holy and Who Do We Think Are had them both branching out again.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Highlander on May 27, 2014, 11:47:32 PM
It's not uncommon for musicians to like music at odds with what they are known for, like the singer of this song, before he became more well known, Stateside, being a 60's R&B fan, to such a degree, his next band had a hit or two covering some items...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xUSYUaLMAA www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeHom0rZHGM

My fave cover of theirs, unfortunately, was not a hit...
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gweimer on May 28, 2014, 03:00:56 AM
It's not uncommon for musicians to like music at odds with what they are known for, like the singer of this song, before he became more well known, Stateside, being a 60's R&B fan, to such a degree, his next band had a hit or two covering some items...

If you dig back far enough, you can find that bands we know started on a different path.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEvy0HgMks4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng9zoyOQpYM
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 28, 2014, 05:56:02 AM
It's not uncommon for musicians to like music at odds with what they are known for, like the singer of this song, before he became more well known, Stateside, being a 60's R&B fan, to such a degree, his next band had a hit or two covering some items...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xUSYUaLMAA www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeHom0rZHGM

My fave cover of theirs, unfortunately, was not a hit...

I always liked Mark Farner's voice and even in the early stoner rock excesses of Grand Funk Railroad you could hear the RnB influence of the Detroit/Flint white boy. His voice had soul. As Grand Funk progressed, those early influences became more overt, Bad Time - a lovely song - is essentially a Motown number, I could always imagine Diana Ross sing it.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsoqv1_grand-funk-railroad-bad-time-1974_music
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: 4stringer77 on May 28, 2014, 06:39:36 AM
I don't see why these guys thought they needed to get Bonzo and Plant. They should have kept playing this stuff and maybe then that god awful stairway song would have never been written, saving us all the aggravation of trying to assign meaning to those senseless lyrics. The song doesn't mean anything. It sold records and that's what mattered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c1xdqfDKPk&list=PL2A18632F81325A9F&index=13
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gearHed289 on May 28, 2014, 07:59:44 AM
Two of my favorite singers when I was growing up were Jon Anderson and Robert Plant. The often cryptic lyrics never mattered that much to me. I listened to the voice as another instrument, and it was all about the melody and emotion. But believe me, I can see how either or both those guys could be annoying if you weren't feeling it!
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: 4stringer77 on May 28, 2014, 08:48:00 AM
I was weaned on Zep and Yes too. Stairway is more of a smash hit run into the ground by fm radio. I know what you mean about insufferable vocals. Care for "Child in Time" anyone?
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 28, 2014, 08:56:52 AM
Two of my favorite singers when I was growing up were Jon Anderson and Robert Plant. The often cryptic lyrics never mattered that much to me. I listened to the voice as another instrument, and it was all about the melody and emotion. But believe me, I can see how either or both those guys could be annoying if you weren't feeling it!

Anderson and Plant?!!!  :o You darn old hippie.  :mrgreen: I know where you are coming from and the "voice as another instrument" is spot on. I never really liked either, Anderson was way too sweet for me, Plant too esoteric, I like storytellers like Ian Hunter, a man with at best 1/10th of the vocal ability of the other two, but that doesn't mean that I cannot repect them as great singers which they no doubt were and continue to be (I like the old Plant better than the young one). With Anderson my comment always was: Does this guy ever sing anything in a minor key?  :mrgreen: Even when he sang to minor chords, his skillfully crafted and ambitious vocal lines sounded jubilantly major. Ok, Owner of a Lonely Heart sounded a bit minorish in places, but that vocal line was most likely written by Trevor Rabin and to most Yes fans it doesn't even qualify as "real Yes".

I recently bought the remaster of Olias of Sunhillow, so I guess I've made my peace with Anderson, his vocal style is certainly intricate.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 28, 2014, 09:07:07 AM
I was weaned on Zep and Yes too. Stairway is more of a smash hit run into the ground by fm radio. I know what you mean about insufferable vocals. Care for "Child in Time" anyone?

It was of course an Mk II signature tune, but if truth be told it was never among my favorite DP tracks. The ballad part was nice, but an unabashed rip-off from It's A Beautiful Day, Gillan's lyrics were allegory-drenched, but without the word wit he developed later in his career and the fast shuffle part in the middle always sounded a bit grafted on to the rest plus that it didn't have any chord changes. Gillan's screaming part did elicit the following comment though from my father when I was listening to Child in Time in our living room in Kinshasa sometime in the mid-seventies: "Well, for once you are playing something, where someone can at least sing." I was gobsmacked. The only other time he ever made a positive comment about the rock music I listened to was when I played Rainbow's live version of the Yardbirds chestnut "Still I'm Sad" - after some silent approving foot-tapping he rose from the couch and said: "That wasn't bad, one could actually listen to it."  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: 4stringer77 on May 28, 2014, 11:37:46 AM
Your dad liked the screaming part of that song? That seems strange, maybe it's because the melody to that part is almost an inverted version of the Ride of the Valkyries.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 28, 2014, 01:44:45 PM
I was surprised too - I was expecting to be kicked out of the living room! In a way it was anti-climatic - which 14 year old wants the music he listens to to to be appreciated by his dad? I bet he did that on purpose.  8)
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: 4stringer77 on May 28, 2014, 02:23:59 PM
This begs the question, how does your son feel about the way you appreciate the music that he plays and likes?
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Pilgrim on May 28, 2014, 02:48:26 PM
This begs the question, how does your son feel about the way you appreciate the music that he plays and likes?

Uwe may never be forgiven!
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 29, 2014, 04:25:28 AM
He's ripped off what I like for as long as I can remember - he started with Right Said Fred and Eminem, moved on to Korn and Judas Priest, then Guns & Roses, Mötley Crüe, that whole LA Glam scene before discovering classic Blues and Bluegrass. So there he is now in an urban hub like Berlin writing archaic Blues. And I sometimes say to him in jest, you know, you're 19, white, live in Berlin and this is 2014 - not the Mississippi Delta in 1925 - you're not even sight-impaired, "Blind Leon Hornung"!

Forgive me, but I sometimes wonder - though he is gifted and an intuitive musician - about the professional aspects of a young Blues musician in modern day Berlin. He's on such a retro trip, he's even bought himself a record player and flea market old Blues records!
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 30, 2014, 09:35:27 AM
I now have the 2-CD-Deluxe Versions of I, II and III before me. It just shows how mild I am getting with age as I never had those albums on vinyl - come to think of it I never had any Zep album on vinyl! Uwe buys Led Zep, mark it in your calendars.

To give credit where credit's due, those Deluxe versions in their (sturdy) mock double album CD sleeves look lovingly done from the outside. They even restored that fancy picture wheel contraption on III. I'll report on how they sound. For Zep nerds those companion CDs with the rare stuff must be a stairway to you know where.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: 4stringer77 on May 30, 2014, 10:09:25 AM
Hey maybe after your son exhausts his passion for early blues he'll make the logical progression to classic rock and Zep and start playing a Les Paul, or maybe he'll rekindle his rebellious streak and start playing Slayer on his banjo like this guy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ2ucr74YNk
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 30, 2014, 10:33:56 AM
He has the Paula already!!! Except in his Korn phase, he was never into brutal metal and not ultrafast stuff either. And he likes Zep better than Purple, Page better than Blackmore. I'm a failed parent in that regard!  :-\

But what he certainly needs together with that banjo is a pair of dungarees. You can't seriously play banjo without them.

PS: I love that vid. Banjo playing minor and chromatic scales sounds unsettling.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Pilgrim on May 30, 2014, 02:13:00 PM
He has the Paula already!!! Except in his Korn phase, he was never into brutal metal and not ultrafast stuff either. And he likes Zep better than Purple, Page better than Blackmore. I'm a failed parent in that regard!  :-\

But what he certainly needs together with that banjo is a pair of dungarees. You can't seriously play banjo without them.

PS: I love that vid. Banjo playing minor and chromatic scales sounds unsettling.

Not jeans for banjo, gotta have overalls.  Get the real thing, get 'em from Pennys or Sears: http://www.sears.com/search=big%20mac%20mens%20bib%20overalls?catalogId=12605&storeId=10153&levels=Tools_Workwear+%26+Work+Boots_Mens+Workwear&autoRedirect=true&viewItems=50&redirectType=CAT_REC_PRED&prop17=big%20mac%20mens%20bib%20overalls

(http://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/image/spin_prod_886138012?hei=546&wid=546&qlt=50,0&op_sharpen=1&op_usm=0.9,0.5,0,0)
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gweimer on May 30, 2014, 02:16:10 PM
Oh, I don't know...I think the preacher's coat and top hat are a nice touch.

(http://cringe.com/pilation/v4.0/images/hogscraper1.jpg)
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 30, 2014, 02:49:24 PM
I meant overalls with "dungarees", I thought overalls were boiler suits ... (we call boiler suits overalls in Germany and overalls "Latzhosen" - literally "bib trousers") ...
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: TBird1958 on May 30, 2014, 02:51:59 PM


 The Led Zep title of this thread keeps me away - and this is what you people do?!



Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 30, 2014, 03:16:48 PM
Well, communication breakdown, it's always the same ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqF3J8DpEb4
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: westen44 on May 30, 2014, 03:59:52 PM
I never bothered to buy a Led Zep album, either, not on vinyl or CD.  I was just never all that much of a fan.  Besides, if you lived in the U.S. when they were popular, all you had to do was turn on the radio and they were on.  I can even remember once going to my grandfather's house and even he had Led Zep playing on his radio. 
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 30, 2014, 04:24:46 PM
Everybody seemed to like II amd IV, I liked the "strange ones" best, Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti. And even that last one "In through the Outdoor" had some nice tunes.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: westen44 on May 30, 2014, 04:34:41 PM
Even the debut album was quite impressive, though.  Actually, I don't completely understand why I didn't get into their music more.  Plenty of other people made up for my lack of participation I suppose. 
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: 4stringer77 on May 30, 2014, 04:39:16 PM
I started on drums before bass and Bonham was my guy. The first CDs I saved up to buy was the Zep box set with the crop circles on it. Lots of good music and a bunch of stuff that wasn't in regular radio rotation. It's impossible not to associate the band with my adolescence.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gweimer on May 30, 2014, 04:41:51 PM
Everybody seemed to like II amd IV, I liked the "strange ones" best, Houses of the Holy and Physical Graffiti. And even that last one "In through the Outdoor" had some nice tunes.

Although it was misunderstood at the time, III contained what is still my favorite Zep song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMQdiHIZgSo

And this one later on always catches my ear - just for you, Uwe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFeuBBG5yIQ
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: westen44 on May 30, 2014, 04:55:28 PM
I started on drums before bass and Bonham was my guy. The first CDs I saved up to buy was the Zep box set with the crop circles on it. Lots of good music and a bunch of stuff that wasn't in regular radio rotation. It's impossible not to associate the band with my adolescence.

I'm sure I missed out by mostly just listening to them on the radio.  I did borrow Led Zep albums from friends from time to time, though.  I still listened to them a lot, but probably not as much as most. 
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on May 30, 2014, 05:46:58 PM
Ok, I confess, I think this song of Led Zep at the end of their career is shit-hot. It defies all expectations, has an intricate and idiosyncratic groove, visits South America, has a lovely effects-drenched solo and is catchy ... And Bonham's drumming is - yes, I'm gonna say it - just astounding on it. Jones does great embellishments on a series of instruments and Plant sings in less than a banshee-key.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R8s0_9kUzQ

If "Whole Lotta Love" was their "Love me Do", then this is their "Penny Lane" or "All You Need Is Love".
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: westen44 on May 30, 2014, 09:07:07 PM
I've heard it many times.  It must have been played a lot on American radio. 

Edit:

Looking at the chart history, it seems Canada and the U.S. were the only countries where the song was a hit. 
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on June 02, 2014, 12:44:59 PM
So I've now listend to the 2014 Remaster of III - the one Led Zep album I know the least and which I have never heard beginning to end as an LP I believe. It's a good remaster by John Davis (there is some debate whether it is identical with the iTunes remaster 2011/12 also by John Davis), not quite as loud and brash as what he did on the 2007 Mothership double CD. I compared a couple of tracks both to the 1990 Remasters by Jimmy Page and the 2007 Mothership John Davis remaster and I find the 2014 offering the most organic sounding, the 1990 stuff was a little too clinical in places, Plant's voice sitting above the music, it's now engulfed by it. The 2007 Mothership stuff was fun to hear for its sheer brashness (sounded like Jimmy page had doubletracked everything anew), but it bordered on being just too loud.

This is now a confident, but not histrionic remaster and the guy who benefits most from it is John Paul Jones. Since his bass playing style is often unobstrusive (compared to Page's many overdubs, Bonham's overloud drums and Plant's banshee wail) and not a constant pulse (lots of space, few repetitions for the listener to latch onto), his bass hasn't been de-relegated to full effect on all tracks (you hear him extremely well on Tangerine, not so well on Since I've Been Loving You, bass frequencies are there, but little focus and attack, perhaps played with the EB-1?), but he is overall much more prominent. HiFi buffs might even call the bass tracks "overcooked" in places, but, hell, this is a bass forum, we don't "overcook" ever!  :mrgreen:

As for the album: It sure is varied, bravely varied, they did not just carbon-copy Led Zep II. Lot's of Americana influence. I didn't even know all the songs.

Only heard two tracks from the "Companion Disc" so far, an alternative mix of "Immigrant Song" where Plant gets all psychedelic towards the end (and Page's tremolo effect guitar much louder) and an instrumental version of "Friends", sound quality of both is excellent. Oh, and Zeppologists will be rapturous that even the "Tangerine"-version on the regular CD now offers a false start of about 6 seconds and a pause of another 8 seconds until the song actually starts as we know it.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: gearHed289 on June 03, 2014, 07:32:56 AM
I don't think there IS any bass guitar on Since I've Been Loving You. Bass pedals and Hammond. Jonesy is a "sit down" keyboardist, so he gets a lot done with his feet. The vocals and drums on that track still give me goosebumps...

III was always an oddball for me too, and I only just bought it/heard it straight through a year or two ago. I love that synth drone at the end of Friends leading into Celebration Day. It's a cool album. It's like they stopped and took a breath before heading into the madness that must have consumed their lives by the time of IV.
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on June 03, 2014, 07:46:03 AM
Now that you say it, that could be it!
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: Highlander on June 04, 2014, 03:11:27 PM
I was never a great fan but had all the vinyl and the "advantage" of seeing them before Bonzo departed... studio worked for me... live, they missed the mark, imho...

Still glad I saw them, even though it cost me a broken nose...

PG's still my fave LP of theirs...
Title: Re: Spirit sues Led Zep
Post by: uwe on August 07, 2014, 01:25:05 PM
They must have settled - IV Remaster is available for pre-order and I guess leaving off "Foreplay with Evan" wasn't really an option, people do like to play it in guitar stores after all so I've heard.

Houses of the Holy is available as a Remaster too now (in October). Curiously, I always liked that album though it's probably even more "unrock" than III.

I insist it has nothing to do with the naked children on the gatefold!!!