Gene Simmons and his burgundy Grabber.

[Blazer]

And I also take this performance to show that "Alive" wasn't all overdubbed in the studio, the band at that time was perfectly capable of playing with that kind of class and intensity that "Alive" portrays.

[barend]

Kiss Rules! great bass sound.

But according to the the Kiss biography Behind the mask which I have just finished reading there were many overdubs on Alive! and also Alive II. Listen to how the fake the crowd sounds on Alive II. It is a constant hiss even during the songs. I don't understand why they did it because they weren't such a bad live band.
Still I like both records very much and all other Kiss albums until until Creatures of the night as well.

Ace Frehley's and Paul Stanley's solo records are also great. 

[Basvarken]

And I also take this performance to show that "Alive" wasn't all overdubbed in the studio

As if that would be any proof!

I have bootleg recordings of the UFO concert that was used for Stangers In The Night. The band sounds great. But they overdubbed a lot on the album anyway.
Same for Thin Lizzy's Live & Dangerous. If you hear the bootlegs you wonder why they even bothered doing overdubs. But they still did a lot of overdubs.

[uwe]

Blazer, if Gene Simmons can own up to the fact that Alive was not so alive much of the time, so can you!  :mrgreen:They can still be your heroes, you know ... 

[uwe]

LOL - just listened to Space Ace's solo on the above clip ... slightly erratic timing which I never noticed on Alive, so that probably was overdubbed. Let's put it this way: He ain't no Alvin Lee when it comes to fluidity of runs ...

[Blazer]

Guys, why don't you re-read what I posted:

"And I also take this performance to show that "Alive" wasn't all overdubbed in the studio, the band at that time was perfectly capable of playing with that kind of class and intensity that "Alive" portrays. "

With which I don't say that there weren't any overdubs going on, I just stated that at that time Kiss as a rock band was tight enough to pull it off on their own merits. Aside from Gene playing a Bum note nearing the end of this song and Ace fumbling with his solo, it sounds as good if not better than the doctored one on "Alive"

A side note, the performance from which this clip came is on the "Kissology" DVD box and Gene and Paul provide commentary on the performances. One thing that Paul Stanley commented about was how he had a "Relationship" with Gibson guitars at that time, they would supply him with guitars which he would sell on again because he needed the money to even make ends meet because of the band being 20.000 dollars in dept in those days. He also stated that the guitars Gibson provided him with weren't really that good sounding either. Case in point was that "Midnight special" performance where he played an L6S and he said "Listen how tinny and lifeless that thing sounded"

[uwe]

No one doubts that Kiss can and could play live. As a band they are perhaps a little stiffer than most others and their songs don't take that much skill or style to play (as the NME once wrote when comparing Kiss to other seventies metal bands "living proof how heavy metal takes less skill than any other form of music known to man to still sound passable ...") plus Criss battles with his range in that particular clip, but they could play live. Though - without their visuals - I never heard them reach the bludgeoning intensity of a good Status Quo, Grand Funk Railroad or Slade gig. And compositions-wise they are not exactly thinking man's heay metal like (the much adored by me) Blue Öyster Cult either ...  And Alive isn't live like countless other "live" albums by musicians better and worse than Kiss aren't either. So what.

I think Gene Simmons is a more than capable bass player, especially for the hard rock genre, and even reasonably inventive. Peter Criss is a Ringo type drummer who has a groove of his own and a pleasant voice (when within his range). Paul is a capable if unremarkable rhythm guitarist - bit stiff, wouldn't consider him in the Keith Richards or Rick Parfitt league - and his vocals always sound kind of samey to me as he sings every note no-holds-barred and with equal melodramatic emphasis. Little light and shade. Not exactly a storyteller. And Ace Frehley can't play a fluid lead guitar for the (hotter than) hell of it, but he is again immediately recognizable in what he does (or is unable to do!  ). Nevertheless I like Kiss and feel entertained by them. And I remember liking Alive when it came out in Germany though it was immediately apparent to me that it wasn't DP's Made in Japan I was listening to. I even played "Come on and love me" in my first band. "She's a dancer, a romancer, I'm a capricorn and she's a cancer, she saw my picture in a music magazine ...".  Paul, that old wordsmith and Queens poet. 


PS: Nice to see that L6S - the guitar cousin to the Ripper. No, it doesn't sound very good, but then I don't remember Paul Stanley sounding creamy and smooth with any make of guitar he has played. I once read that most L6S ended up with country bands, because a Tele sound was what they could still emulate best.

[Lightyear]

Keep it up Uwe - Scott and George will be along shortly....

One thing that I noticed when I watched all of the DVD stuff is that earlier performances - say pre Destroyer seemed to be tighter and better performed.  By the time Love Gun came around, this is when they lost me  , Ace seemed to be drunk or otherwise wasted and the music suffered at the expense of the theatrics. 

[Blazer]

Keep it up Uwe - Scott and George will be along shortly....

One thing that I noticed when I watched all of the DVD stuff is that earlier performances - say pre Destroyer seemed to be tighter and better performed.  By the time Love Gun came around, this is when they lost me  , Ace seemed to be drunk or otherwise wasted and the music suffered at the expense of the theatrics. 

That's one thing that Gene Simmons himself said on the "Kissology" DVD's he knew that Ace and Peter Criss wouldn't last long after "Destroyer" since they both preferred to indulge in the excesses that came with the amount of money the band started to make.  He himself was guilty of that too though.

Kiss during the eighties with Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick might not be the classic line up but they were a much tighter band, a much better unit of four.

 

[lowend1]

Let's put it this way: He ain't no Alvin Lee when it comes to fluidity of runs ...

"Mmmm baby, I'll play the blues for you"
Fluidity was clearly not Ace's thing. There is something about his vibrato, and the trademark staccato picking ala "Firehouse", that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy - like I'm 15 again, riding home on the bus after purchasing Alive!
There's also the patented Ace "noise solo" ("Strange Ways", "Almost Human") that never gets old for me.

[barend]

Kiss during the eighties with Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick might not be the classic line up but they were a much tighter band, a much better unit of four.

yeah maybe so, but the songs after Creatures of the night really sucked. Lick it up has a few good songs. But I don't understand why they put out such bad albums after that. They even admit they don't like most of the songs on these albums themselves in Behind the mask. Then why put them on a record anyway?

I think Kiss is no longer Kiss after they dropped their make up.

And the last tour with those two other guys dressed up as Ace and Peter I don't understand either.
Glad I still have all the old albums. I was a Kiss fan from my 7th year.

But hey, the cash has to flow for Gene and Paul

[Basvarken]

The guitar intro on the first clip in this thread is slightly off key. That would be another reason for overdubs.

[barend]

I also really like that fantastic song "Careful with that axe Gene" that Pink Floyd made as a tribute to Kiss 

[OldManC]

I got myself in trouble the last time I waded into a thread like this, but where KISS is concerned I doubt I'd have to bow to anyone here with exception maybe to Scott in the length of time and intensity in which I've been a fan of the band. That being said, (and apropos of nothing) the fact that something came out of Gene's mouth is proof enough that it's probably a lie if not a gross under or over-exaggeration (if you need to guess which, just remember that the outcome always has to benefit KISS).

Alive is one of my top 5 albums of all time. If I could only take one KISS album onto that desert album, as much as I love the classic KISS lineup and albums (actually up to Creatures), Alive would be it. That being said, Alive is far less live than advertised. Guess what, so is almost every other 'live' album from that era. Not all, but most. So what. Alive II? Sorry, but side 4 is the most live side on that turd. Side 4 also makes up for the other three sides, so that's not a bad thing. Note to anyone who would argue over how live that album is: KISS didn't perform "Tomorrow and Tonight" and "Hard Luck Woman" in the set for that tour, yet the fake 'crowd' sounds pretty much the same.

I have the bootlegs (either DVD or CD) for all the shows that were supposed to have made up those two albums. Some of the actual live cuts are close enough that you can tell exactly which night each song came from, but there was still a lot of work done on those tracks. On Alive (IMHO) it made for a much better album. Alive II? Not so much...

Of all the bootlegs I have or have heard (which would be multiple shows from every tour back to their first club dates), the one thing I've found is that there were times when KISS was a TIGHT band. When they were on they were as good or better than anything on Alive. The problem is, they could also be as bad in the other direction, and not just because of Ace or Peter's substance abuse. Gene and Paul ruined just as many songs along the way with their sloppy playing and forgotten lyrics (OK, that was usually Gene). Doesn't matter. You either like or 'get' KISS, or you don't. No big deal, but if you're in either camp there's no reason trying to convince the other side of anything. It's a losing proposition.

[Blazer]

I also really like that fantastic song "Careful with that axe Gene" that Pink Floyd made as a tribute to Kiss 

Not really when the Floyd released that song, Kiss wasn't even a thought in Eugene Klein's brain, since he was too busy teaching language arts in a Grade school.