The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: Blazer on May 24, 2009, 04:57:42 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL_2wxfXPDw
And I also take this performance to show that "Alive" wasn't all overdubbed in the studio, the band at that time was perfectly capable of playing with that kind of class and intensity that "Alive" portrays.
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Kiss Rules! great bass sound.
But according to the the Kiss biography Behind the mask which I have just finished reading there were many overdubs on Alive! and also Alive II. Listen to how the fake the crowd sounds on Alive II. It is a constant hiss even during the songs. I don't understand why they did it because they weren't such a bad live band.
Still I like both records very much and all other Kiss albums until until Creatures of the night as well.
Ace Frehley's and Paul Stanley's solo records are also great.
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And I also take this performance to show that "Alive" wasn't all overdubbed in the studio
As if that would be any proof!
I have bootleg recordings of the UFO concert that was used for Stangers In The Night. The band sounds great. But they overdubbed a lot on the album anyway.
Same for Thin Lizzy's Live & Dangerous. If you hear the bootlegs you wonder why they even bothered doing overdubs. But they still did a lot of overdubs.
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Blazer, if Gene Simmons can own up to the fact that Alive was not so alive much of the time, so can you! :mrgreen:They can still be your heroes, you know ... 8)
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LOL - just listened to Space Ace's solo on the above clip ... slightly erratic timing which I never noticed on Alive, so that probably was overdubbed. Let's put it this way: He ain't no Alvin Lee when it comes to fluidity of runs ...
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Guys, why don't you re-read what I posted:
"And I also take this performance to show that "Alive" wasn't all overdubbed in the studio, the band at that time was perfectly capable of playing with that kind of class and intensity that "Alive" portrays. "
With which I don't say that there weren't any overdubs going on, I just stated that at that time Kiss as a rock band was tight enough to pull it off on their own merits. Aside from Gene playing a Bum note nearing the end of this song and Ace fumbling with his solo, it sounds as good if not better than the doctored one on "Alive"
A side note, the performance from which this clip came is on the "Kissology" DVD box and Gene and Paul provide commentary on the performances. One thing that Paul Stanley commented about was how he had a "Relationship" with Gibson guitars at that time, they would supply him with guitars which he would sell on again because he needed the money to even make ends meet because of the band being 20.000 dollars in dept in those days. He also stated that the guitars Gibson provided him with weren't really that good sounding either. Case in point was that "Midnight special" performance where he played an L6S and he said "Listen how tinny and lifeless that thing sounded"
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No one doubts that Kiss can and could play live. As a band they are perhaps a little stiffer than most others and their songs don't take that much skill or style to play (as the NME once wrote when comparing Kiss to other seventies metal bands "living proof how heavy metal takes less skill than any other form of music known to man to still sound passable ...") plus Criss battles with his range in that particular clip, but they could play live. Though - without their visuals - I never heard them reach the bludgeoning intensity of a good Status Quo, Grand Funk Railroad or Slade gig. And compositions-wise they are not exactly thinking man's heay metal like (the much adored by me) Blue Öyster Cult either ... :mrgreen: And Alive isn't live like countless other "live" albums by musicians better and worse than Kiss aren't either. So what.
I think Gene Simmons is a more than capable bass player, especially for the hard rock genre, and even reasonably inventive. Peter Criss is a Ringo type drummer who has a groove of his own and a pleasant voice (when within his range). Paul is a capable if unremarkable rhythm guitarist - bit stiff, wouldn't consider him in the Keith Richards or Rick Parfitt league - and his vocals always sound kind of samey to me as he sings every note no-holds-barred and with equal melodramatic emphasis. Little light and shade. Not exactly a storyteller. And Ace Frehley can't play a fluid lead guitar for the (hotter than) hell of it, but he is again immediately recognizable in what he does (or is unable to do! ;D ). Nevertheless I like Kiss and feel entertained by them. And I remember liking Alive when it came out in Germany though it was immediately apparent to me that it wasn't DP's Made in Japan I was listening to. I even played "Come on and love me" in my first band. "She's a dancer, a romancer, I'm a capricorn and she's a cancer, she saw my picture in a music magazine ...". Paul, that old wordsmith and Queens poet. :)
PS: Nice to see that L6S - the guitar cousin to the Ripper. No, it doesn't sound very good, but then I don't remember Paul Stanley sounding creamy and smooth with any make of guitar he has played. I once read that most L6S ended up with country bands, because a Tele sound was what they could still emulate best.
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Keep it up Uwe - Scott and George will be along shortly.... ;D ;D
One thing that I noticed when I watched all of the DVD stuff is that earlier performances - say pre Destroyer seemed to be tighter and better performed. By the time Love Gun came around, this is when they lost me >:(, Ace seemed to be drunk or otherwise wasted and the music suffered at the expense of the theatrics.
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Keep it up Uwe - Scott and George will be along shortly.... ;D ;D
One thing that I noticed when I watched all of the DVD stuff is that earlier performances - say pre Destroyer seemed to be tighter and better performed. By the time Love Gun came around, this is when they lost me >:(, Ace seemed to be drunk or otherwise wasted and the music suffered at the expense of the theatrics.
That's one thing that Gene Simmons himself said on the "Kissology" DVD's he knew that Ace and Peter Criss wouldn't last long after "Destroyer" since they both preferred to indulge in the excesses that came with the amount of money the band started to make. He himself was guilty of that too though.
Kiss during the eighties with Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick might not be the classic line up but they were a much tighter band, a much better unit of four.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yocVc9JmQZA
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Let's put it this way: He ain't no Alvin Lee when it comes to fluidity of runs ...
"Mmmm baby, I'll play the blues for you"
Fluidity was clearly not Ace's thing. There is something about his vibrato, and the trademark staccato picking ala "Firehouse", that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy - like I'm 15 again, riding home on the bus after purchasing Alive!
There's also the patented Ace "noise solo" ("Strange Ways", "Almost Human") that never gets old for me.
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Kiss during the eighties with Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick might not be the classic line up but they were a much tighter band, a much better unit of four.
yeah maybe so, but the songs after Creatures of the night really sucked. Lick it up has a few good songs. But I don't understand why they put out such bad albums after that. They even admit they don't like most of the songs on these albums themselves in Behind the mask. Then why put them on a record anyway?
I think Kiss is no longer Kiss after they dropped their make up.
And the last tour with those two other guys dressed up as Ace and Peter I don't understand either.
Glad I still have all the old albums. I was a Kiss fan from my 7th year.
But hey, the cash has to flow for Gene and Paul
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The guitar intro on the first clip in this thread is slightly off key. That would be another reason for overdubs.
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I also really like that fantastic song "Careful with that axe Gene" that Pink Floyd made as a tribute to Kiss :)
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I got myself in trouble the last time I waded into a thread like this, but where KISS is concerned I doubt I'd have to bow to anyone here with exception maybe to Scott in the length of time and intensity in which I've been a fan of the band. That being said, (and apropos of nothing) the fact that something came out of Gene's mouth is proof enough that it's probably a lie if not a gross under or over-exaggeration (if you need to guess which, just remember that the outcome always has to benefit KISS).
Alive is one of my top 5 albums of all time. If I could only take one KISS album onto that desert album, as much as I love the classic KISS lineup and albums (actually up to Creatures), Alive would be it. That being said, Alive is far less live than advertised. Guess what, so is almost every other 'live' album from that era. Not all, but most. So what. Alive II? Sorry, but side 4 is the most live side on that turd. Side 4 also makes up for the other three sides, so that's not a bad thing. Note to anyone who would argue over how live that album is: KISS didn't perform "Tomorrow and Tonight" and "Hard Luck Woman" in the set for that tour, yet the fake 'crowd' sounds pretty much the same.
I have the bootlegs (either DVD or CD) for all the shows that were supposed to have made up those two albums. Some of the actual live cuts are close enough that you can tell exactly which night each song came from, but there was still a lot of work done on those tracks. On Alive (IMHO) it made for a much better album. Alive II? Not so much...
Of all the bootlegs I have or have heard (which would be multiple shows from every tour back to their first club dates), the one thing I've found is that there were times when KISS was a TIGHT band. When they were on they were as good or better than anything on Alive. The problem is, they could also be as bad in the other direction, and not just because of Ace or Peter's substance abuse. Gene and Paul ruined just as many songs along the way with their sloppy playing and forgotten lyrics (OK, that was usually Gene). Doesn't matter. You either like or 'get' KISS, or you don't. No big deal, but if you're in either camp there's no reason trying to convince the other side of anything. It's a losing proposition.
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I also really like that fantastic song "Careful with that axe Gene" that Pink Floyd made as a tribute to Kiss :)
Not really when the Floyd released that song, Kiss wasn't even a thought in Eugene Klein's brain, since he was too busy teaching language arts in a Grade school.
(http://www.kissfever.com.ar/images/gene67_01.jpg)
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Blazer, that was a j-o-k-e of Barend, ok? Are getting a joke and liking Kiss mutually exclusive? :rolleyes:
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Blazer, that was a j-o-k-e of Barend, ok? Are getting a joke and liking Kiss mutually exclusive? :rolleyes:
Doesn't being a KISS fan prove the fact that one can thoroughly enjoy all levels of a joke?
Wait a minute...
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Not if the joke is about Kiss 8)
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Some people never learn.... :sad:
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I knew it was a Joke, why else did you think I posted that ridiculous picture of Simmons with my reply?
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I remember when Gene Simmons starred in Angel Face with Robert Mitchum. ;)
That was before the operation. ;D
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I remember when Gene Simmons starred in Angel Face with Robert Mitchum. ;)
That was before the operation. ;D
Yeah I can see that. ;D
(http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/uploaded_images/gene_simmons_facelift-720040.jpg)
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In that case, I'm relieved! What's wrong with the pic, that is how ole Chaim looked as a young man. I don't think he has changes that much even today.
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Okay then to again prove that I know what fun is, watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6yIti02SkM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vKrUJ2_UXk
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In that case, I'm relieved! What's wrong with the pic, that is how ole Chaim looked as a young man. I don't think he has changes that much even today.
actually, if you look up unmasked seventies pictures of Ol' Gene you'll see that his son Nick is a carbon copy of his old man.
(http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/5719/gene.jpg)
Gene in the mid seventies.
(http://www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/nick_simmons.jpg)
Nick.
Nick has got the same facial built and the same nose as Daddy dear, his face also has the same outline. AND...
(http://bp2.blogger.com/_JdrZy49CocM/RqD1PkMayGI/AAAAAAAABmA/kl7qV9NaGVc/s400/nick_simmons_070719_21%2520copy.jpg)
Nick also has his father's most famous attribute.
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I do agree that Nick is a (better looking and somewhat refined) copy of his dad (thanks to his mother's DNA, I'm sure), who looks almost like a dwarf next to him, but that pic of Gene is from 1984/85, as evidenced by his 'Animalize' wig, which he wore after cutting his hair to do the film, 'Runaway'. That wig, while a very nice wig, was the most obvious fake of Gene's career, because it looked NOTHING like his natural hair!
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Whoops. My bad then.
;)
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Yeah I can see that. ;D
(http://www.delawareonline.com/blogs/uploaded_images/gene_simmons_facelift-720040.jpg)
What's with this pic? Gene after a facelift or a car crash? :o I had hoped he would wirinkle gracefully and leave the facelifts to Stanley Eisen ...
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I saw that clip when it first aired............................and I was entranced ! I saw them on the tour that was to become Kiss Alive. All I remember is that is was a kick ass concert and I was so horse I could barley talk, I loved every second of it. Sure Kiss is no Led Zeppelin (that's the point). I always thought Gene was /is a excellent bass player. He has written many great lines and for the most part has paid quite a bit of attention to his sound/tone. I also love Ace's quirky style but then I think Ariel Bender is great to ;)
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I think I'll pull out my Grabber :mrgreen:
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I saw them at the Hammersmith Odeon in '76, both nights, got some reasonable shots and an odd one (so I was told by a Kiss obsessionist I knew) of Frehley playing an Explorer for the encores...? I may even still have some "KISS ARMY" armbands in the loft, somewhere...
I always thought they crafted some very clever "pop", if you listen to their "hits" seperated from the main body of their work - "Alive" is the only CD I have these days, but I still want to get "Destroyer" some time (again)...
I would not consider myself to be a "fan"...
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Frehley playing an Explorer for the encores...?
There are very few pictures of Ace with that Explorer. I always figured it was one of their endorsement pieces. Then again, he still had it in 1978 when pictures were taken of him with all his guitars in his basement studio, so it's one he must have liked. That's cool you got those!
I always thought they crafted some very clever "pop", if you listen to their "hits" seperated from the main body of their work
That's what attracted me to them in the first place. I heard a Beatles influence and was hooked from there.
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I saw them at the Hammersmith Odeon in '76, both nights, got some reasonable shots and an odd one (so I was told by a Kiss obsessionist I knew) of Frehley playing an Explorer for the encores...? I may even still have some "KISS ARMY" armbands in the loft, somewhere...
(http://www.acefrehleylespaul.com/Explorer__76__7_.jpg)
Yup. Ace played Explorers and explorer type guitars such as Ibanez Destroyers (quite appropriate if you ask me) and a five string tuned to open G Steve Carr made custom number.
(http://www.acefrehleylespaul.com/31Oct81_MiniExplorer.jpg)
Here's another cool picture of Ace Backstage, behind him are two of Gene's Custom Spector basses. Gene used these basses for a LONG time.
(http://www.acefrehleylespaul.com/BK_Custom__78.jpg)
But perhaps the strangest music instrument that Ace played in Kiss must have been Eric Carr's Ludwig drumkit.
(http://www.acefrehleylespaul.com/Ace_Drums__2_.jpg)
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It's sort of strange to see Ace without his LP's! He may not be the best player but he inspired me and countless others to pick up a guitar. I will always be grateful to KISS for that.
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I knew where the negs for these were but I gave the prints away years back so no frame of reference until I scanned today - sadly degenerated and scratched - I was about 10 rows back or so and excuse condition of shots... 2 rolls of film used that night... about 1/2 were reasonable... not my best work...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/frehleyexplorerinset.jpg)
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/frehleyinset.jpg)
I'll post some of Gene if you want, but same sort of condition... :sad:
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Oh wow, Ken, our Kiss Army grunts are gonna go wild about those! I actually think an Explorer looks better on Ace than an LP, goes well with his lightning jumpsuit applications.
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That's one thing that Gene Simmons himself said on the "Kissology" DVD's he knew that Ace and Peter Criss wouldn't last long after "Destroyer" since they both preferred to indulge in the excesses that came with the amount of money the band started to make. He himself was guilty of that too though.
Kiss during the eighties with Eric Carr and Bruce Kulick might not be the classic line up but they were a much tighter band, a much better unit of four.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yocVc9JmQZA
That clip is either 100% dubbed or they used tapes for the background vocals. :-\ How else can you explain that during the chorus (just look at 1.28-1.31 for example, again at 2.22-2.25) Herr Eisen choses not to sing, yet you can clearly hear him in the background as the lead voice. Ouch. And it's not like the chorus of Lick it Up is Bohemian Rhapsody Part II that would necessitate such shenanigans. Unless of course Paul is a ventriquolist with an in-built mike. ;D And please now none of that Coverdale-crap how "Carr, Simmons and Kulick have similar voices to Stanley". They don't. Anybody who's heard an undoctored bottleg from that era knows that Kiss backing vocals weren't exactly Beach Boys or Bee Gees standard.
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Blazer used this underneath his avatar a long time. A Mythbusters quote:
I reject your reality and substitute my own
I guess he meant it.
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That clip is either 100% dubbed or they used tapes for the background vocals. :-\ How else can you explain that during the chorus (just look at 1.28-1.31 for example, again at 2.22-2.25) Herr Eisen choses not to sing, yet you can clearly hear him in the background as the lead voice. Ouch. And it's not like the chorus of Lick it Up is Bohemian Rhapsody Part II that would necessitate such shenanigans. Unless of course Paul is a ventriquolist with an in-built mike. ;D And please now none of that Coverdale-crap how "Carr, Simmons and Kulick have similar voices to Stanley". They don't. Anybody who's heard an undoctored bottleg from that era knows that Kiss backing vocals weren't exactly Beach Boys or Bee Gees standard.
Well I never stated in my post that this clip was untempered with, this footage is a cut and paste from three concerts they gave in Cobo Hall and they used the audio from the best of those three. The rendition of this song also is much faster than the studio version. Why do you hear Stan's voice when he's not at the mic, because it's the audio from another performance.
They also had a keyboard player playing backstage, to add a little spice where the guys were lacking. Why do you guys get the idea that I posted that clip of "Lick it up" to show what kiss sounds like undoctored? That was NEVER my intention, it was my intention to show that they were a tight band in those days.
Blazer used this underneath his avatar a long time. A Mythbusters quote:
I reject your reality and substitute my own
I guess he meant it.
Give me a break here Chris, what's wrong with defending the bands I like?
Perhaps I should change my Avatar quote into another Mythbusters Quote: "Quack, damn you!"
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Well I never stated in my post that this clip was untempered with, this footage is a cut and paste from three concerts they gave in Cobo Hall and they used the audio from the best of those three. The rendition of this song also is much faster than the studio version. Why do you hear Stan's voice when he's not at the mic, because it's the audio from another performance.
They also had a keyboard player playing backstage, to add a little spice where the guys were lacking. Why do you guys get the idea that I posted that clip of "Lick it up" to show what kiss sounds like undoctored? That was NEVER my intention, it was my intention to show that they were a tight band in those days.
Give me a break here Chris, what's wrong with defending the bands I like?
Perhaps I should change my Avatar quote into another Mythbusters Quote: "Quack, damn you!"
What I don't know about KISS could fill an encyclopedia, but I do know this: when somebody says a certain lineup of a band is better -- or in your words, a much tighter band, a much better unit of four -- and then posts a video of that lineup, EVERYONE is going to presume that the video is intended to support your claim.
A video with doctored audio does NOT support your claim that they were a tight band in those days.
Others were right to point out that it's doctored. Now you're implying that you knew it was doctored. If that's true, it means you were trying to deceive people. That certainly won't work here. Too many KISS fans to call your bluff.
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What I don't know about KISS could fill an encyclopedia, but I do know this: when somebody says a certain lineup of a band is better -- or in your words, a much tighter band, a much better unit of four -- and then posts a video of that lineup, EVERYONE is going to presume that the video is intended to support your claim.
A video with doctored audio does NOT support your claim that they were a tight band in those days.
Others were right to point out that it's doctored. Now you're implying that you knew it was doctored. If that's true, it means you were trying to deceive people. That certainly won't work here. Too many KISS fans to call your bluff.
GIVE ME A f***ING BREAK! :rolleyes:
What does it take for me to post a clip of a fun song played really well and you guys not being suspicious about the contents of the thing?
Okay, you want Kiss with Bruce and Eric without tempering HERE YOU GO!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCTPzPvfFr4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ8Kmu8N27A
This footage is not owned by Kiss.
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at this point blazer after so many 'debates' arising from your postings and very declarative prose you use, i suspect an ulterior motive most of the time. that motive would be your qwest to prove you are the big brained, lord god king of musical trivia forever on earth. amen.
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Well said.... and on that note, let's close it up.