The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: drbassman on January 24, 2008, 11:52:35 AM
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Got a newer Epi USA Sheraton body and we'll be doing the short scal bass thing with her, but with something original for the pups, like TV Jones ThunderTrons. I've got a mahog neck for it that needs a fret board and finishing, so this will be a fun one for sure.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/dcb9_3.jpg)
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Good idea! I like your plan.
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My Idea, that I will execute as I aquire the appripriate basketcase candidate, is to put some Triumph pups in a short scale hollowbody. The Trons doon't sound like a bad idea tho.
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Nice!
Keep us posted
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I used the TVJ pups in my Allen Woody (in Uwe's possession now) and they sounded pretty good. I've learned a little more about wiring Gibsons since I did that one and the key, I'm finding, is to use 250 k pots for the tone controls. Makes a big difference in the sound and tone.
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I really like the binding on that. I hope your neck gets the full treatment to match it up.
I had an old Peter Tork Gretsch, and the pups in that - which were Supertrons - sounded wonderful. Probably the one I liked most for recording. I know people love Hagstrom/Dark Stars, but I preferred it. I would imagine the TV Jones pups are simillar sounding.
I thought of TV Jones for a future Coronado experiment. I would love to try your Sheraton, but I know I can't handle a set neck. A man's got to know his limitations.
As always, Good Luck.
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Nice project. You sure know how to keep being busy, and what better way than building/restoring basses. Is the mahogany neck your own build?
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That will be one cool bass ! Bill I think you should quite your day gig. ;)
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Thanks guys. I bought a bare bones neck some time ago just waiting for the right body to come along. Here's the neck.....
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/823NECKO1.jpg)
I haven't decided what I might do about binding on the neck. I'd probably have to make a matching binding, so I don't know if I have the patience for it!
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Interesting project. I've thought about a guitar to short scale bass conversion but not with a semihollow.
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Interesting project. I've thought about a guitar to short scale bass conversion but not with a semihollow.
I did it once before with my first project, a tele guitar body with a short scale neck.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Builds%20and%20Refurbs/telemasterfinished.jpg)
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Are those real toasters?
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Are those real toasters?
Yep. I sold it a few years ago on eBay then saw it later on G Base. It sounded pretty neat but the toasters lack bottom and I let her go.
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the key, I'm finding, is to use 250 k pots for the tone controls
Dr B, can you elaborate on the difference in sound between the 250k & 500k pots please? thanks!
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the key, I'm finding, is to use 250 k pots for the tone controls
Dr B, can you elaborate on the difference in sound between the 250k & 500k pots please? thanks!
I have found that the lower resistance of the 250k pots enhances the lower frequencies and gives a fuller sound to the bass, IMHO of course. The higher the resistance, the more you bleed of the low end output of the pickup. I used four 500k pots on my recent NR repro TB and it sounds thin to me, so the 500k tone pots are coming out soon for 250s.
I first noticed it with a 72 Telecaster bass I rehabbed. It has 1 meg pots and no low end at all! It took all of the mud right out of that old humbucker pup. So, that one will be redone with a 500k tone pot to bring back some of the missing lows.
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thanks very much for the explanation. I may have to give this a shot on my ripper. I rewired it like an LP but I'd like to coax a little more low end out of it.
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I have found that the lower resistance of the 250k pots enhances the lower frequencies and gives a fuller sound to the bass, IMHO of course. The higher the resistance, the more you bleed of the low end output of the pickup. I used four 500k pots on my recent NR repro TB and it sounds thin to me, so the 500k tone pots are coming out soon for 250s.
I first noticed it with a 72 Telecaster bass I rehabbed. It has 1 meg pots and no low end at all! It took all of the mud right out of that old humbucker pup. So, that one will be redone with a 500k tone pot to bring back some of the missing lows.
This is backwards; lower Z bleeds more treble thru the tone cap (higher Z prevents these freqs from being bled off, giving the brighter sound - the illusion of less bass). You are noting this effect in reverse - it's like how some people call the baritone switch a bass boost. You are not adding bass buy doing this so much as taking away treble. Leave the stock 500K pots and turn down the tone control for the same effect with less work/money spent on new pots.
Because of the value of the tone caps on basses, 'treble' that is bled off may include some mids as well.
A much cheaper and IMO worthwile way to mod your tone is to play with the value and quality of the tone cap. Or no-load pots.
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Did I say it incorrectly but have the right idea? Here's a direct quote from the Stew-Mac site regarding this same idea:
Your tone is affected by the control pots you use. Not just the tone control — the volume pot influences tone, too.
250K vs. 500K pots
250K pots give a slightly warmer tone than 500K because the 250K bleeds off some of the high frequencies.
250K = warmer
500K = brighter
1 Meg = brightest
Usually, 250K pots are used with single-coil pickups and and 500Ks are used with humbuckers. If you want to hear your guitar "wide open" with all the highs, try 1 Meg pots.
Maybe they're incorrect? I doubt it.
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On another note, I used Gibson pots on my 60's NR rehab, a 500k for the vol and 300k for the tone and it sounds spectacular. It's become one of my favorites just on tone alone.
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They're right (though their use of the term 'warmer' is misleading though not untrue). The point I'm making is that the amount of bass is constant. All that changes is the amount of treble (and possibly some mids, depending on cap value). Notice that that quote mentions bleeding off treble but not bleeding off bass - 250Ks are warmer, because they lack treble, not because 500Ks lack bass.
The exact same effect that you desire can be achieved by rolling off the tone knob vs changing the pots and keeping the tone at 10. Just trying to save you some time and money and prevent people from thinking that pot values can reduce the amount of bass.
Then again, maybe you want a tone even bassier than that, and have not only switched the pot but also rolled the tone off all the way, in which case I'd recomend playing with cap values to change the rolloff point of the tone knob and make it more usefull for your purposes. That's still cheaper than buying new pots, and will allow more versatility (you can have varrying degrees of that treble back should the need arise).
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Well I think it also depends on what impedance your pickups are.
I had to change the pots on my modified JCS because they didn't match the Gibson Lo-Z pickup I put in.
I believe the JCS had 250 K Ohm pots installed. That didn't work with the Gibson Lo-Z pickup.
But now I have 2.5 K Ohms (Yes that's correct: 2.5 K) like it says in the wiring diagrams from the Les Paul Bass / Triumph.
It wasn't easy to find them by the way...
So maybe the higher the impedance of your pickup, the higher the impedance of the pots should be?
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Doh, I reread my first post and I did type it incorrectly. I did mean to say the highs were bled off with the lower resistance pots. My thought was the lows are enhanced by the bleeding off of the highs as the resistance is reduced. Same idea, just poorly expressed by me!! To my ear, the bass end sounds better with the reduction of the highs, that's the end game.
The problem I've had with tone control adjustments is the high end reduction seems more muddy and muffled when you just turn the tone knob down vs. using a lower z pot. Maybe my ear, or brain is deceiving me, but I think the overall sound is better with the 250k tone pots. I always use a .047 cap, so that is a constant in my wiring schemes. I've also been trying the orange drops with some success rather than ceramics.
Thanks for the clarification! I'll choose my words more carefully in the future!
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And Uwe compares me to Dr. Frankenstien LMFAO . Seriously great ideas on bass design.
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..... I always use a .047 cap, so that is a constant in my wiring schemes. I've also been trying the orange drops with some success rather than ceramics. ....
+1 - I love the Orange drops - an excellent $2.00 investment!
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Interesting topic. I've recently put togeather from a kit a pbass (please god save my soul) and decided to wire its pup straight to jack.
At first I thought that it had no bottom at all and too much treble (it sounded like a baritone guitard or something) but I think that putting some 250k pots just cuts treble and make you think that it has bass.
Is it possible or I am deaf?
That's her, I call 'er "Hope?":
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/kwstas79/hope-bass/hope09.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/kwstas79/hope-bass/hope08.jpg)
Great project dude! ;)
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Very cool p bass. They all need a little something to jazz them up!
My big dilemma with the Epi is what bridge should I use? I could do a traditional 3-point, 2-point repro like I used on my 2 NR TBs, or a wooden affair with a chrome tailpiece. Since I'm installing the neck, I can use anything I want since I'll control the height and neck angle. What do you all think?
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No need to apologize for the P. Interesting paint job!
Truth is, many bass pickups are capable of lots of treble. Sometimes so much treble that it buries the bottom end by comparison. Finding the right combination of tone control and capacitor can make a huge difference. There's a good reason 250K and .047/.050uf or .1uf are commonly used with a P: it works, at least for many people.
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That has a feedback block, no? If so, you could stud anchor a Schaller 401, and do it up long scale. Or a Kahler non-whammy. Maybe even go Epi-traditional and mount 4 individual pieces on an elegant slant. Or the new hipshot. So many choices....
About the only thing I wouldn't do is an arch top bridge and tailpiece, like on that fancy pants ES-175 bass they did.
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That has a feedback block, no? If so, you could stud anchor a Schaller 401, and do it up long scale. Or a Kahler non-whammy. Maybe even go Epi-traditional and mount 4 individual pieces on an elegant slant. Or the new hipshot. So many choices....
About the only thing I wouldn't do is an arch top bridge and tailpiece, like on that fancy pants ES-175 bass they did.
This has been driving me crazy because of the number of choices. Does Schaller still make the 401? I wasn't sure. I have the tailpiece and wooden bridge on my EB-650 and it's kinds nice to have something so different than the 3-pointers I have on 6 or 7 of my other Gibson.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/ebfront.jpg)
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An Alembic-style bridge (or that 2pc Warwick) might look nice on there too.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/0chromium0/forums/guild-js2-mods/mpu-made-bridge.jpg)
Marko (MPU from the DP) built that one.
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Wow, cool. Well, I could always use the trusty 2-point bridge Scott made with one of my 60's tailpieces. Too many choices!
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I've got a Warwick bridge I'm looking to sell, if you're interested. Cheap. ;D
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Yes, PM me.
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First this (http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=38.0), now another intrusion by Warwick into Gibson territory! :o
(Yeah, I know, the Warwick bridge isn't new to Gibson.)
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I've got a Warwick bridge I'm looking to sell, if you're interested. Cheap. ;D
If the good Doctor is not interested I call dibs! Providing that it's chrome ;D
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You guys are killling me! It's gold. ...sigh...
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Bummer :( Gold just isn't my "thang" And judging by your post I'm guessing it isn't Doc's either.
Fear not - someone here will want it! You never know when a certain German with a hording complex will decide to work over some unsuspecting Gibson in a new and vibrant color scheme that will require gold hardware ;D
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After the blue/orange burst he did on the gunshot wounded bass, gold hardware is mild by comparison.
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Well, there is the dayglo green/fuscia burst color scheme that has yet to be tried ;)
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Man, I love the look of thet Warwick Star II, even the pseudo humbucker covers.
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Man, I love the look of thet Warwick Star II, even the pseudo humbucker covers.
Warwick's putting out classic guitar shapes under the Framus name -- I haven't seen them in stores but I did see them at Summer NAMM 2006 and 2007. So I guess they're testing the waters on classic bass shapes.
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What are the prices like on the Framus line? IIRC, Warwick is what became of the old Framus company. Maybe they're following the Gibson/Epiphone trend by doing reissues under the old name. If the prices are reasonable, it might be worth looking at.
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I'm gonna call my dealer tomorrow to see what the prince on the Star II is going to be.
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Well I think it also depends on what impedance your pickups are.
I had to change the pots on my modified JCS because they didn't match the Gibson Lo-Z pickup I put in.
I believe the JCS had 250 K Ohm pots installed. That didn't work with the Gibson Lo-Z pickup.
But now I have 2.5 K Ohms (Yes that's correct: 2.5 K) like it says in the wiring diagrams from the Les Paul Bass / Triumph.
It wasn't easy to find them by the way...
I've been looking for 2.5K Triumph pots, Rob where'd you find them? Actually, I think I'm still trying to figure out what taper the original ones were. Do you know or did you just assume audio/log (some schematics show linear for some pots, log for others, and sometimes even a 3rd marking that I'm not familiar with - there are more than 2 pot tapers available).
And Yes, Rob, Hi vs Lo Z will change things significantly, but one HiZ pup vs another, is not that much diff (the Z is in the same ballpark) - the reason that they recomend 250K's for single coils is because they're usually too trebly (a matter of taste, some people love that skewed tone, which is why no-load pots and wiring straight to the jack are popular mods). Humbuckers have double the inductance which acts as a low pass filter (just like a 1st over crossover on a woofer in a speaker cabinet), that's why buckers are darker than single coils (exception being great big hoinkin granddaddy coils like the original EB pup which have heela inductance as well - basically the more and/or thicker wire around more magnet = more inductance = less treble). 500K's are used on buckers to preserve what treble they do have; 250s are used to tame the treble on singles so they sound fuller (as per DrBassman's fancy).
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This has been driving me crazy because of the number of choices. Does Schaller still make the 401? I wasn't sure. I have the tailpiece and wooden bridge on my EB-650 and it's kinds nice to have something so different than the 3-pointers I have on 6 or 7 of my other Gibson.
Personally, I say go with something with a tailpeice for that - it's a howllowbody after all, they look naked on the ass end without one IMO. Maybe a Badbird (by Dasson) bridge with a trapeze.
Also, the Schaller 460 looks good on the ES shape.
What's the 401? Can't find any info on that.
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Hey, I like the idea of a tailpiece with Scott's bridge, that might look kinda cool. The problem I have with a tailpiece is there aren't many bass versions available. Mostly Hofner style, which would work, but I'd love something more along the lines of a traditional Gibson piece. It's always something!
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I've been looking for 2.5K Triumph pots, Rob where'd you find them? Actually, I think I'm still trying to figure out what taper the original ones were. Do you know or did you just assume audio/log (some schematics show linear for some pots, log for others, and sometimes even a 3rd marking that I'm not familiar with - there are more than 2 pot tapers available).
Well, I got the info from Jules' pot database.
Lineair for Treble/Tone and I figured Logarithmic for Volume (which works perfect).
I found the pots at CTS. But I had to dig real deep. Actually I sent an email and got a very helpful guy answering my questions. Eventually he sent me the pots as a sample (= for free!). Now that's what I call good service.
BTW These official CTS pots came straight from the factory... in Taiwan.
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Here's one way to do it............
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/GB2535-000.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/TP0425-010_lg.jpg)
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Thanks Rob. I looked at Jules Pot database before when I was investigating this more closely and I think I found inconsistencies between differant versions of the diagrams and Jule's DB. I was planning on eventually measuring mine to confirm (haven't got around to it yet because I'd have to desolder the pots from the circuit to measure them). I'll do this eventually.
drbassman, regarding the trapeze. You can use a geetar one - file the 2 E slots bigger to accept bass-size strings and make 2 new slots for A and D (or use the geetars A and D but widened away from each other if that makes sense). That's what I did because I couldn't find a bass trapeze short enough (the Hofner was too long). If you look closely, you can sse that the D string heads slightly North behind the bridge:
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Triumph/CleanedUp/FullFrontal.JPG)
As for the bridge proper - I hate those unintonatable jobies, I wonder if the tune-o-matic style (as found on Ibanez Artcores) would fit on that base, just like geetar tune-o-matics will.
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A bigsby would fit on that bass
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Hey Granny, I've thought about doing some creative filing on a guitar trapeze. I could live with the Hofner style if I could get a decent bridge to go along with it. I'm trying to get my dealer to get me a Gretsch Space control bridge like the one on my Thunder Jet. That would work well.
I don't know how you could get your hands on an Artcore set up unless one popped up on eBay.
The body came today and it's in really good shape! I'll post a couple pics later this week, I've got rehearsal tonight.
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I got one of these http://www.guitarjonesusa.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=29_84
I had to cut the saddles down . Ill send it to you if you want.
I may have a trapeze like granny also so let me know.PM Me
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here's a few
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Semi-Acoustic-Bass-Chrome-Tailpiece_W0QQitemZ180209579055QQihZ008QQcategoryZ41407QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-Ibanez-QUIK-CHANGE-III-Bass-Tailpiece-CR-New_W0QQitemZ260201084272QQihZ016QQcategoryZ41407QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/BASS-GUITAR-TRAPEZE-TAILPIECE-WIRED-FRAME-SUIT-HOFNER_W0QQitemZ200196152588QQihZ010QQcategoryZ42455QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m122
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I got one of these http://www.guitarjonesusa.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=29_84
I had to cut the saddles down . Ill send it to you if you want.
I may have a trapeze like granny also so let me know.PM Me
How did you cut the saddles? I might be interested. You decided not to use it or it didn't work out?
Let me know about the trapeze too.
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A steady hand and a metal blade on a band saw! I was going to put it on my LP Recording HO.I decided to go with the 3 point. I love the look of the tail piece on Granny's blond,but I like tone pro look . I think it sat too high or something. Id be happy to mail it to you along with the trapeze.....now where is that burried. Ill sniff around and send some stuff to you. the cuts were a bit sharp on the edges. I was gonna smooth them down if I decided to use it. PM your address.M
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I got one of these http://www.guitarjonesusa.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=29_84
I had to cut the saddles down . Ill send it to you if you want.
I may have a trapeze like granny also so let me know.PM Me
I don't suppose you know/recall what the post spacing is on those? 3 1/4"? That would be v good to know (means you can mount it on a archtop tune-o-matic bridge base).
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...might have to snug up the post with duct tape ::)
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I won't have any problems with a bridge or stud spacing since the body doesn't have any major holes fomr the previous bridge. I can do whatever!
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This what I like to use, a Kahler fixed. Just needs a couple of holes that aren't there, and very Gibsony. But with height and intonation adjustability out the wazoo.
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This what I like to use, a Kahler fixed. Just needs a couple of holes that aren't there, and very Gibsony. But with height and intonation adjustability out the wazoo.
Wow, that's massive, but I like the adjustability of it. I'm going simple tailpiece and wooden bridge!@
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It is big north to south, but it isn't something you notice with playing. It is actually the 5/6 string base, as that will span the Gibson stock stud holes, and it is about as wide as an Evertilt. I have had bad luck with Hofner-esque bridges in that the tend to be delicate. But lots of people love them.
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OK, I had to have my luthier help me with the neck joint and it came out great. I also learned how to do it too, so it was worth it! Here's how this one is shaping up.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/100_1442.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/100_1441.jpg)
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That's a nice view of the neck joint area. And the bass looks great with those pickups on.
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That's a nice view of the neck joint area. And the bass looks great with those pickups on.
thanks Dave. I wasn't sure at first, but I think the Melody Makers look really at home one this bass. I'll load them up with Jag pups.
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Very promising!
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Nice work as always. I agree the pups really look good.
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Nice work as always. I agree the pups really look good.
It's funny because I didn't think the pups would look good on this bass, but when I set them down on it, they really did look right. So, I'm gonna run with it! I'll glue the neck in after I do some final shaping and sanding this weekend.
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OK, I haven't post on this in ages, but I did just finish the head stock inlay and next we'll do the fret board. I am seriously thinking about binding the edges (something else I've never tried before!!!)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/100_1985.jpg)
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Well, I finally got back to the Sheraton project. I installed the fret board and frets and finished the Gibson inlay on the headstock. Truned out quit nice if I do say so myself. The neck's attached now and the next issue will be final finishing in the spring when it's warmer outside. This is the bass that will get the mini-humbuckers.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/100_1442.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/drbassman/Epi%20Sheraton/100_2247.jpg)
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Very nic!! What happened to the jag/MM pup scenario?
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Very nic!! What happened to the jag/MM pup scenario?
After working with the Jag pups, I decided on the mini-buckers. Less routing and damage incurred and I like the chrome!!!! Also, they look more original to this body. Just a change of heart mid-stream.
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I certainly can relate. :mrgreen:
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Nice! :)
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lookin' good, doc! btw, if you want or need more experience reworking necks, my rivoli reissue is available! ;)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/rsteiner/rivoli5.jpg)
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Sure wish I had the time to work on toher people's stuff. I hope to do so once I retire in a couple years. BTW, I love those natural Rivolis, RI or otherwise.
lookin' good, doc! btw, if you want or need more experience reworking necks, my rivoli reissue is available! ;)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/rsteiner/rivoli5.jpg)
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Just curious... does the truss rod end at about the 15th fret?
On the first page of this thread, you said it was a bare bones neck. Was this an actual Gibson neck from the greatdealz guy, or just a generic one?
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Just curious... does the truss rod end at about the 15th fret?
On the first page of this thread, you said it was a bare bones neck. Was this an actual Gibson neck from the greatdealz guy, or just a generic one?
the truss rod does end around the 15th. fret. It's a generic from an eBayer in Canada. I bought 3 of them and this is the 2nd. one I've used.
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Im using one of those canadian necks and i put a longer truss rod in it. I only had the one neck.
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Nice project, I really like minis on hollow-bodies! But what minis are you gonna use?
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Nice project, I really like minis on hollow-bodies! But what minis are you gonna use?
Artec minis.
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Im using one of those canadian necks and i put a longer truss rod in it. I only had the one neck.
I used the first one on my Vox project. The original rod works fine so far.
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Artec minis.
I thought so. Artec makes descent pickups in great prices. But are those minis blade pickups? Or they have polepieces? If they have polepieces, maybe you will have some problem with string to string balance.
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I thought so. Artec makes descent pickups in great prices. But are those minis blade pickups? Or they have polepieces? If they have polepieces, maybe you will have some problem with string to string balance.
I don't know the artec's design, but shouldn't be any more difficult than a Musicmaster bass with a Strat pup. I think it'll be fine.
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You've got a (good) point there! :) Again, it's a beautiful project!
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You've got a (good) point there! :) Again, it's a beautiful project!
Thanks, I'll post some shots of the pups when I get them installed.
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Just in case you haven't check em out, artec makes those too:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Artec-Mini-Humbucker-Violin-Bass-Pickup-Chrome_W0QQitemZ160301875102QQihZ006QQcategoryZ22670QQcmdZViewItem
:)
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Just in case you haven't check em out, artec makes those too:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Artec-Mini-Humbucker-Violin-Bass-Pickup-Chrome_W0QQitemZ160301875102QQihZ006QQcategoryZ22670QQcmdZViewItem
:)
Thanks, I did see those but I actually liked the ones without the pole pieces. They have a nice clean look to them. Those are nice too!