The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Bass Zone => Topic started by: Happy Face on January 03, 2014, 06:37:03 PM
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For some reason I received a Musician’s Friend catalog today. Must be because I bought something at Guitar Center? Anyway, I was thumbing though it while dinner baked and was pleasantly amazed by the number of 15 to 20 watt boutique guitar amps listed.
It fitted in with my own experience: Our killer rhythm guitarist just bought himself a Vox AC-15 and I must say, it sounds mighty nice. As he said, we’re either playing at a club with sound or we bring our own PA, which has at least 5000 watts available. He’ll get himself heard one way or another. Being that we are a harmony-heavy band, keeping stage volume somewhat controlled is a good thing.
Looking at that catalog and of Sam’s new AC-15 got me thinking back to high school days in the mid to late sixties. I semi-fondly recall playing in bands where the lead guitarist had a Twin Reverb. Or make that two Showmans with cabs. Or best of all, two Super-Reverbs stacked on top of each other, cranked up loud so they’d break up.
As a bass player with a humble white Bassman and then a Guild amp with a 2x15”cab, then a Traynor, it was a real chore to even be heard. The endless wars encouraged me and my main rival bass player to lend each other our amps so we could each use two amps to try and keep up with our guitarists. It also made us open to welcoming higher powered solid state amps, even if they did not sound all that great. It also influenced my technique to this day – I still yank on the strings too hard rather than employing a light touch.
Circling back to today, I called an old friend who knew me back then. He only took up bass in recent years but now kicks ass. I mentioned the MF catalog and teased him about his GAS problem. But then I wandered over to the topic above and he told me how his band, which has been actively gigging recently, had been forced to part ways with a really good guitarist. I’d heard him play = he was really good and is a fine singer. Plus I liked him as a person. But he was getting too loud at the kind of venues they play at. His amp? A Twin Reverb. I asked “Why doesn’t be just trade down to a Pro?” But I guess the guy is set in his ways.
A long story short = aint it nice that our gitards are finally figuring out that a lower power amp can be a better stage amp? I say “can be” because, if we are playing at an outdoor venue, I totally want and demand that our guitarists wheel out some serious amplitude. How else can I justify bringing out one of my big rigs? I do miss having my pants flapping in the breeze!
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I've noticed it too, it's a real world trend, not just in the catalogs. Not sure of the reason other than the realization that many low watt amps are plenty enough for a lot of indoor gigs and many sound better too. OTOH there's no shortage of guys who will never give up their insanely loud amps.
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I've noticed it too, it's a real world trend, not just in the catalogs. Not sure of the reason other than the realization that many low watt amps are plenty enough for a lot of indoor gigs and many sound better too. OTOH there's no shortage of guys who will never give up their insanely loud amps.
The hearing issues plague the jams at my house. All but my lead guitarist are suffering off and on from tinnitus. Smaller amps would probably do the trick , of course so would turning the volume control to the left. That turning down thing is so much more difficult than it sounds though ???. If I ever get that time machine of mine working right , I'm going back to the mid 60s and buying a couple Fender Deluxes or Princetons, a Bassman or B-15 and a Shure Vocal Master PA and do it the old way ;D. While I'm there I may just pick up a pair of Beatle boots too. Anybody else need anything?
Rick
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low watt boutique amps have been available for some years now. you would be startled how loud 7 watts can be. very expensive, though.
http://www.emerysound.com/Superbaby.htmlhttp://www.emerysound.com/Superbaby.html
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I agree this is a good thing. Nice to get those power tubes cookin without knocking the walls down! (Says the guy who ran an SVT through 2 tens and 3 fifteens at his last show)
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low watt boutique amps have been available for some years now. you would be startled how loud 7 watts can be. very expensive, though.
http://www.emerysound.com/Superbaby.htmlhttp://www.emerysound.com/Superbaby.html
Carr Amps makes some really great stuff too. My guitar player has got one or two of them in the 14 - 18 watt range. I would be ever so willing to work within that volume range, but it ain't ever gonna happen :sad:.
Rick
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I recently sold our lead guitarist my 1967 blackface Bassman. If he can't get loud enough with that head, he doesn't need to play whatever it is he's playing.
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low watt boutique amps have been available for some years now. you would be startled how loud 7 watts can be. very expensive, though.
http://www.emerysound.com/Superbaby.htmlhttp://www.emerysound.com/Superbaby.html
It's about a 20 year trend. But until recently you didn't see much of it at places like MF except for certain vintage Fender reissues. The boutique amps were being sold by indie shops and advertised in places like Vintage Guitar mag, while MF was busy selling Marshall stacks.
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I have noticed that some of the traveling bands I've seen use small classic amps that are mic'd into the PA.
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I have noticed that some of the traveling bands I've seen use small classic amps that are mic'd into the PA.
Ayunh ... a while back I talked to an old bandmate who now provides PAs, backlines and such to bands that are on tour in his region. He mentioned that one semi-big or has-been act he provided gear for had a full set of stacks. But the lead guitarist also had an AC-30 behind the wall of sound. The big rigs were all on standby while he played through the (miked) Vox.
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Back in the 60s I caught Muddy Waters playing big ballrooms through a little Ampeg Gemini I (I think that was it) and mic'd through huge PA. Other acts were using Marshall and Sunn huge stacks. Muddy sounded just fine ;D.
Rick
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Is Neil Young still using pretty much just a twin and that's it...?
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Is Neil Young still using pretty much just a twin and that's it...?
I thought Neil used a Deluxe? (with a bunch of pedals)
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No mention of Dave Davies? Wasn't he one of the pioneers?
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you guys are talking about normal amps. (twin reverb) we were talking about the ultra low watt amps, 2.5 to 10 watts.
http://www.emerysound.com/Microbaby.html
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you guys are talking about normal amps. (twin reverb) we were talking about the ultra low watt amps, 2.5 to 10 watts.
http://www.emerysound.com/Microbaby.html
I wasn't talking about ultra-low watt amps, just amps with modest power, say 15-30 watts.
In any case, a lot of people don't understand the relationship between increases in power and and perceived volume. It's logarithmic. The difference between a 15 watt and, say, a 50 watt amp is not as great as you might think.
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Here's something I found. Interesting note of Jimmy Page's amp for the first couple Zep albums.
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/lifestyle/productspotlight/gearandinstruments/10-huge-sounds-recorded-521/ (http://www.gibson.com/en-us/lifestyle/productspotlight/gearandinstruments/10-huge-sounds-recorded-521/)
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I thought Neil used a Deluxe? (with a bunch of pedals)
I looked it up. It starts with a deluxe and some pedals, but it gets weird after that: the Deluxe output gets padded down and then run into some other things including a Bass 400 head driving a huge weird-ass Magnatone cabinet.
http://www.guitarworld.com/neil_young_ragged_glory?page=0,1
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http://www.johncipollina.com/rock.html
hardly lo watt but i like the pic.
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I'd always figured the low wattage amp thing was a result of home recording becoming so easy/affordable. No problem to get those things to dirty-up at low volume, great for home recording.
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I thought Neil used a Deluxe? (with a bunch of pedals)
Small Fender (with a shed load of peddles ;D), can't remember for sure... I know he keeps buying them whenever he finds them, so they say
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I think guitarists use the small amps because they can get the OD sound they want at moderate sound levels. Sticking a mic in front of the amp gives them more control of the sound they're inputting to the PA.
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https://www.google.com/search?q=neil+young+guitar+amp+setup&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=trpk1l6MDRyA_M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcRK_o8Zt8mEQdIj5gDL1ox_thH20Ney_r52HxA_hnEHOsEgwPKVDw%253B300%253B247%253B_TPUORfJSIF3QM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.guitarworld.com%25252Fneil_young_ragged_glory&sa=X&ei=YinLUtOKGIa92wXSsoCYDQ&ved=0CDkQ9QEwAg&biw=1280&bih=646#facrc=_&imgrc=trpk1l6MDRyA_M%3A%3B_TPUORfJSIF3QM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.guitarworld.com%252Ffiles%252Fimagecache%252Ffeatured-node%252Fsites%252Ffuture.p2technology.com%252Ffiles%252FYoungGear.jpg%3Bhttp%253A
%252F%252Fwww.guitarworld.com%252Fneil_young_ragged_glory%3B300%3B247
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Could you have found a longer link, Tom...?!?! ;D
(same page shows a link to Larry Cragg and a vintage rental company - LC being NY's tech)
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I think I have the perfect amp at home. The Ashdown all tube CTM15. Only 15 watts and even better sounding than the 30W CTM30/Little Bastard. I test it with a small 1x10. Great sound, can be overdriven very warm and aven the fuzz sounds great! Loud enough for acoustic gigs. It only misses an DI-out. I told Ashdown boss Mark Gooday and he maybe will get a next load with DI out.
At the NAMM they will introduce a fliptopversion.
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Back in the old days I played with guitarists with Marshall stacks and bassists running Ampeg Fridges to keep up. These days virtually everyone (that I play with) is using an amp with 40 watts or less and most are using 15 watt Fender Juniors or Vox AC 15s. It makes stage volume much more bearable.
A harp player that I know has a Fender Pawnshop series Excelsior amp. It sounds good with his harp and pretty good with guitar as well. They sell for about $300, not too bad.
This clip is from Fender a couple of years ago from when it first came out. It's pretty amusing.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk176/justadrummer5359/Fenderpowertrio_zps882c684f.jpg) (http://s280.photobucket.com/user/justadrummer5359/media/Fenderpowertrio_zps882c684f.jpg.html)
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http://www.johncipollina.com/rock.html
hardly lo watt but i like the pic.
I caught Cipollina with this rig a couple of times and I've got to say , he had an incredible sound ;D.
Rick
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I wasn't talking about ultra-low watt amps, just amps with modest power, say 15-30 watts.
In any case, a lot of people don't understand the relationship between increases in power and and perceived volume. It's logarithmic. The difference between a 15 watt and, say, a 50 watt amp is not as great as you might think.
Indeed; very important.
Another significant factor is speaker efficiency. Just changing the speaker or adding additional ones can make a rather noticeable difference in SPL output.
As a front of house person, and friend to others, I can assure you that when some kid rolls his half stack into our (relatively) tiny rooms, eyes roll. A known touring band from NY came through my former venue one time and their tech rider was insane (I almost passed on the booking, but the money as too good due to shit hot act - good thing as that gig put us on the map): for the <2000 sq ft space (including kitchen, office and my studio on the side, so really not much more than 1100 sq ft) they had 6 SVTs/full stacks (2 per person) on stage + miced/DIed into the PA (they wanted more power than we had, an illegal amount actually - you could do an outdoor show with less, so we didn't bother and just didn't tell them) + folded back into the monitors (again 2 per person; promoter had to rent additional units). They were an all electronic act by the way (I think maybe a guitar on the odd song, but mostly keys, drum machines, samplers and tables full of pedals and each with a personal mini mixer feeding the 2 stacks behind them in stereo). Their setup was in some ways counter-productive, and I think mostly designed for intimidation factor (cultivating a 'loudest band' reputation etc). They probably still couldn't hear themselves that well on stage due to the phase cancellation, which reminds me: the advice I give younger bands (on the same bill as my band - I try not to when I'm sound guy; they misinterpret the motivation) is: if it's amped, keep it out of the monitors if at all possible. I see so many kids standing right in between their Ampeg (closed back, in front of the drums) and the monitor, asking for more bass in the monitor because they can't hear themselves and the sound person has asked them not to turn up the amp any more. Put the amps behind the drummer (so he can hear and to give you some distance from the speaker,) and (assuming no keys, horns etc as regards ampless instruments), nothing but vox and kick in the monitors and it'll be the best stage sound you've ever had (in that club). This does fly in the face of the current trend of keeping stage volumes as low as possible, though it doesn't require turning it to 11 either, but I have found (after trying almost all other approaches, sometimes not so willingly) that it is the best and most consistent way to make sure you can hear everything well (up until you get to stadium level with in-ear monitoring of custom personal mixes which I haven't had the pleasure to experience yet... or even just having your own sound person for the band vs the venue's guy, which I also have yet to experience). Though when one old band of mine moved up a level and played a larger venue with their own dedicated stage monitor mixer and person (located just off to the side of us, and a good competent dude who ran sound for many a former band, including this same one, at his regular gig in a smaller club), that was pretty swell too.
Anyway, to get back to the topic, if a pair of 6L6s (30ish watts) + PA ain't enough, you're doin it wrong. Hell, an 8x10, driven by a pair of 6L6s will do for bass even without the PA (up until larger venues at least).
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I laugh and haul my "little" rig to my new church playing gig: the Trace Elliot VA350 (350 watt TUBE head) on an Acme Series I 4x10. I like it because I can turn it down and it sounds good and I can turn it up and it sounds good. With my Epi LP Std with the Fralin T-bird pickups and flatwounds, I can go from thump to roar at just about any volume. I thought about taking a couple of my 8x10's and an SVT one day just to scare them, but they are some really nice folks. The praise band leader has a Takamine Flying V acoustic! It looks like a balalaika until you get up close. I also can stand in front of the drummer and NOT need earplugs! It's weird.
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I'd like to hear that Trace/Acme rig.
Last night we debuted the new AC-15 live. He stands next to me It's plenty loud. Too loud sometimes. He told me the max he went to was 11 o'clock.
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The pastor is the lead guitar player and the first one I've EVER encountered who doesn't overplay ANYTHING. He's got a respectable effects setup with pedals into a newer Fender 1600 amp and can play great- and he's been playing his Black Epi LP, so we match. He's a bit older than I am, not by much, just enough that our tastes in music are different. He's more into 70's- 80's AOR and classic rock, and I'm from the pissed off school of music informed by Motown and never forgetting that I'm smack dab in the middle of the East Tennessee mountains.
After practice today, we started jamming on old Van Halen tunes. I stand with him and the drummer on one side of the stage and the praise and choir leader stand on the other with (plugged into the PA) acoustic guitars and the piano. My bass fills the room and provides the glue for the drums and guitars and is never more than a single click (Trace used stepped pots) on the input gain or master volume away from being perfect and still is very touch sensitive. (Of course my "touch" is just a smidge heavy to start with.) I'm not in the PA, but when I went direct before I brought in my amp, it wasn't awful, but I don't want to mess up their monitor mix, which works right now. Did I mention that I LOVE the drummer? First cymbals I've never needed earplugs to be around!
It's funny; I've played hundreds of shows with never a tingle, but playing in church makes me nervous like nobody's business. I've already pissed off God enough as it is! ;)
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Playing in church is very different. Your audience is, hopefully, not drunk, and they are paying attention.
One of the first times I rehearsed with my church band, the other bass player was running old Alice Cooper songs.
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All my bands have followed the Black Sabbath mantra: if the audience is too drunk to appreciate what you're playing, play at a volume that will force them into submission. I've played in church before, but it was a VERY rural, backwoods church where you were only allowed to play country chords...and time was just a magazine.
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that won't work for what i do. plus i love the "intimidation" factor. i want the other bands to be scared silly.
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... and time was just a magazine.
;D
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I'm glad somebody else got that.
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A propos of the topic
Ya'll'd probably enjoy "17 Watts: the first 20 years of British rock guitar" by Brit session man and bass player Mo Foster.
http://www.amazon.com/17-Watts-British-Musicians-Stories/dp/186074267X
The title comes from the shock and awe inspired by a 17 watt amp someone bought in the early 60s and no one could imagine needing that much power. The book is a riot to read. Foster is full of stories about the early days and he's just having fun telling them. He's not out to dish dirt.
Track it down if you can. Your library can probably get a copy for you.
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This is the clip that I meant to link to before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-R1pMp7iwg