The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: tore00 on October 30, 2011, 08:51:07 AM
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Here is my last completed project. I bought wome time ago a Peavey T-40 on ebay, without pickups. It was perfect for installation of a couple of Hagostrom bisonics or Dark Star, but I had no chance in finding them, so I decided to make myself two of them.
So I collected documentation to reproduce them and tried, however I found some great difficulties in two main points:
the lamination cores machining and the pole height adjustement mechanism.
I decided to give up with the pole height mechanism, the screws that you see are dummy, and replaced the lamination with ferrite beads, they should do the work of lamination, maybe even better.
I used 6 mm alnico poles, and alnico bars and handwinded single coil at about 5.4KOhm, (really hand winding, no coil winding machine of any type) and finally wax potted the pickups. Finally I created a wooden ring painted black including a classic humbucker height adjustement possibility.
Then I installed on the T-40, with series/parallel option.
My craftmanship skills are not great and actually the appearance is not the best, the main problem was removing the wax from the front of the PU, however the results was better that expected and the sound, well the sound to my ears is great!
I have no experience of the real thing however these pickups have a fat deep tone that I do not find in my other bass, and at the same time a great clarity. The volume is terrific, expecially in series configuration, and the frequency response great. I really like the sound that now is coming from this bass. I would be really curious to compare with some real Dark Star or Bisonic. Here are few pictures
I started this project about 5 months ago, and worked in the few spare time from work and during holiday,and used a drilling machine and a router to make the job essentially from plastic sheets, forbon, ferrite beads, alnico poles and bars, and AWG 42 wire.
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/SANY00102.jpg)
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/SANY00022.jpg)
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/SANY0077.jpg)
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/SANY0072.jpg)
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--double post please remove--
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Very impressive! Got some questions thru. You wrote
I used 6 mm alnico poles, and alnico bars and handwinded single coil at about 5.4KOhm
You mean you used alnico rodes AND alnico bars under them? Sounds kinda overkill, especially for the neck pup. You must have some heavy string pull. AFAIK Dark Stars have iron rodes with alnico bars underneath them, kinda like guitar P-90 pups. Also, do you remember the number of winds? Both pups are the same?
You know we need clips, doncha? :D
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Yes, I used alnico rods and alnico bars below, as the bisonics. They are not exactly the same. The bridge pickup is actually 5.6 KOhm (6000 coils) while the bridge is 5.4 KOhms (5600 coils). I do not feel any particular string pulling. I will post some samples as soon as I can manage to connect the amp to the soundcard
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wow.thats cool.yes indeed sound samples please.
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Here are some samples. I am a mediocre bassist :P, expecially with the pick, please forgive the execution. Recording the samples I discovered that the pickups are quite microphonics, you can hear my children playing while I was recording. Next will be wax potted for longer time ;)
Pick ups in phase
www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/series_full_pick.mp3 (http://www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/series_full_pick.mp3)
www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/series_full_fingers.mp3 (http://www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/series_full_fingers.mp3)
www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/parallel_full_fingers.mp3 (http://www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/parallel_full_fingers.mp3)
www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/neck_only_full_fingers.mp3 (http://www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/neck_only_full_fingers.mp3)
Pick ups out of phase
www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/op_series_full_fingers.mp3 (http://www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/op_series_full_fingers.mp3)
www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/op_series_full_pick.mp3 (http://www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/op_series_full_pick.mp3)
www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/op_parallel_full_fingers.mp3 (http://www.gospel.bo.it/albums/userpics/11529/op_parallel_full_fingers.mp3)
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the pickups are quite microphonic, you can hear my children playing while I was recording.
Wow you built some great microphones! :mrgreen:
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They sound great! There's a fine line between the right amount of wax and losing tone. Just tell the kids to shut up!
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It is very interesting the principle on which the Bisonics and the Dark Star are based. It could be applicable to any type of pickup (also Fender like pickups) but the construction would not be simple.
Now I am thinking about a new step forward: using neodymium magnetsin a Bad-Sonic. I know that you guys are alnico aficionados, but I winded several Jazz and Precision pickups using neodymium, and they are the best sounding pickups on my basses, not only to my poor and humble ears, but also to the ears of professional musicians that frequent my house. The drawback I see in using the neodymium in Bad-Sonics is the risk of string pulling, but I think thet I can handle increasing the distance.
I also use the neodymium pickups in a special configuration to improve the sound of Artec pickups in my Bach Thunderbirds, and ensure you that they are hot!
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clone Fred and chain him to a workbench ... if one could get hold of him he might be willing to sell some parts????
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I also use the neodymium pickups in a special configuration to improve the sound of Artec pickups in my Bach Thunderbirds, and ensure you that they are hot!
I'd like to hear more on this, pweeeeezzzzeeee! :D
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I liked the texture of the sounds you pulled from your pickups.
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Nice! Very interesting tones with the out-of-phase options. Do you get a drop in volume when out-of-phase in parallel?
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I'd like to hear more on this, pweeeeezzzzeeee! :D
I have realized a special configuration of neodymium magnets put one below a Artec pickup. Believe me it improves a lot how the pickup sounds. I will post some samples in the weekend from my Bach TB II
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Nice! Very interesting tones with the out-of-phase options. Do you get a drop in volume when out-of-phase in parallel?
Yes, it is quite normal, however it is amazing how much the sound is different and in any case appealing. I personally prefer series configuration but my ears start be old and appreciating that growl.... ;)
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It is very interesting the principle on which the Bisonics and the Dark Star are based. It could be applicable to any type of pickup (also Fender like pickups) but the construction would not be simple.
Now I am thinking about a new step forward: using neodymium magnetsin a Bad-Sonic. I know that you guys are alnico aficionados, but I winded several Jazz and Precision pickups using neodymium, and they are the best sounding pickups on my basses, not only to my poor and humble ears, but also to the ears of professional musicians that frequent my house. The drawback I see in using the neodymium in Bad-Sonics is the risk of string pulling, but I think thet I can handle increasing the distance.
I also use the neodymium pickups in a special configuration to improve the sound of Artec pickups in my Bach Thunderbirds, and ensure you that they are hot!
Nice work!
Neos sound great in bass pickups. I use them. The trick is to use steel poles, and then charge them with neos on the bottom.
The real Bi-Sonic had steel poles, and they went through a laminated steel keeper. Then the alnico magnets pressed up against that.
A real DarkStar/Bi-Sonic looks like this:
You can see the keeper bar covered with coper tape.
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/DarkStarback.jpg)
Side view:
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/DarkStarside.jpg)
A guy over at TalkBass made a clone with neos:
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/Dark%20Star%20clone.jpg)
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/Dark%20Star%20clone%202.jpg)
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Please explain how that thing is a 'clone' of a Bisonic. Does it exhibit ANY of the measurable physical properties of an original? Are the acoustic properties close to an original?
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Please explain how that thing is a 'clone' of a Bisonic. Does it exhibit ANY of the measurable physical properties of an original? Are the acoustic properties close to an original?
The coil is the same dimension and wound the same. It uses steel poles and a laminated keeper block. It lacks the adjustable poles, but that has nothing to do with the way the pickup sounds, and was probably overkill. Pickups don't have acoustical properties, but they do have electrical properties (DC resistance, inductance etc.). As long as you get close to those, and keep the coil geometry the same, it will sound extremely close, if not exact.
It sounds pretty much like a Bi-Sonic. He posted some sound clips of it, but I couldn't locate the thread. I think the clips were with ceramic magnets, which was in the pickup with the green circuit board bobbin.
So the important things here is the size and shape of the coil and how it's wound, and the amount of steel and strength of the magnets. Everything else is just how the pickup looks.
I'm going to start making a similar pickup, but with a blade instead of poles.
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By acoustic properties I guess I meant frequency response curves. Stuff that can be objectively measured, I don't know the technical jargon. I do seriously doubt those arbitrarily placed neo magnets accurately reproduce the originals. The ability to adjust each pole piece to individual string height and strength is a major feature of the bisonic/dark star design IMO.
It sounds pretty much like a Bi-Sonic.
And this looks pretty much like a Rolls Royce, probably sounds close too. :)
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/THUNDERBUCKER/126109.jpg)
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Same design principles and coil geometry can get you in the area, but IMHO it won't be any closer than "similar."
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Same design principles and coil geometry can get you in the area, but IMHO it won't be any closer than "similar."
Well then you have to ask why not? What is there about the original that's different? As long as you have the same amount of steel (for inductance) and similar strength magnets, along with the right coil geometry and windings, you have the same pickup. All the rest of the pickup, like the adjusters and the chrome surround, would have a minimal impact on the tone. The Bi-Sonic doesn't need to be so large either, and without the adjusters you only need to house the coil. If you replace the larger alnicos with the same strength of neos, and maybe increase the amount of steel in the keeper, you can fine tune the pickup to get that tone. If you heard the sound clips you can hear that it sounds like a Bi-Sonic. I'll see if I can find them.
I think if Fred Hammon had started to remove parts until he hit the bare minimum needed to retain the tone, most of the pickup beyond the coil, poles and magnet would be gone.
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I think everything matters except the color of the bobbin. No, a chrome surround (to use your example) won't have the same effect as changing the coil shape, that doesn't mean it makes no difference. A minimal impact on tone is still an impact.
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I think everything matters except the color of the bobbin. No, a chrome surround (to use your example) won't have the same effect as changing the coil shape, that doesn't mean it makes no difference. A minimal impact on tone is still an impact.
That's true. The surround is conductive, so it might bleed off some high end, although it's not very close to the coil. But you would have to try one both ways and see.
Apparently Rick Turner felt the pickup could be improved by adding a second magnet to it. Fred has further improved it with more laminations to the keeper.
So with these changes you still get the sound of a Bi-Sonic, but it might sound slightly different from a particular Bi-Sonic.
OK, I found the thread with the DarkStar clone. It has sound clips of a real one too.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f38/dark-star-vs-my-own-mpustar-801085/
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Hi, this is my first post here!
Those are interesting looking pickups, tore00. It's great to see something outside of the standard Fender-ish designs. I'm curious about the Ferrite beads you used to do the job the laminations did in the original. Are they the cylindrical type with the holes through them that usually get used for RF suppression, and do your poles pass through them? I take it the logic in using them was to get some ferrous material in there to alter the inductance without using a solid, conductive lump of steel? I may try something similar if I can gather up the materials.
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I take it the logic in using them was to get some ferrous material in there to alter the inductance without using a solid, conductive lump of steel?
The real Bi-Sonic, as well as the DarkStar use laminations for the keeper. The function of the keeper is to conduct the magnetic field to the poles, and allow them to slide through.
If you aren't using adjustable poles, you could probably do away with the keeper, but that would alter the inductance a bit.
The reason for using laminations is to reduce eddy currents, which dampen the resonant peak of the pickup, and reduce some of the high end.
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I was thinking about that too, you could simplify more the pickup design by replacing the steel poles and keeper bar with a steel blade. You could experiment a bit with the thickness to adjust inductance or maybe use a thin blade and add a brass plate. Or you could use a reverse T style blade, thick part on bottom to stick the magnets to and thin at the top to reduce the sensing area and the inductance. Sky is the limit.
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I was thinking about that too, you could simplify more the pickup design by replacing the steel poles and keeper bar with a steel blade. You could experiment a bit with the thickness to adjust inductance or maybe use a thin blade and add a brass plate. Or you could use a reverse T style blade, thick part on bottom to stick the magnets to and thin at the top to reduce the sensing area and the inductance. Sky is the limit.
That's kind of the approach I'm taking with my "Neo-Sonics."
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Adjustable polepieces are overrated anyway! :D
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Adjustable polepieces are overrated anyway! :D
I agree! :mrgreen:
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I wonder how close a P90 style magnet arrangement without the laminations could get to the sound of the originals? I guess that a solid keeper would lose some highs from eddy currents, and leaving the keeper out would change the inductance, so wouldn't have its peak at the same frequency? I'm trying to figure out if tore00s ferrites are an attempt to get some iron in there to get the inductance similar to the Bisonics/Darkstars, without losing highs through eddy currents. I can't see where they are from the pictures, so I, guessing they're in the centre of the coil perhaps.
I have very limited tooling, so I'm not going to try copying anything too closely - if I can get it somewhere in the ballpark I'll be happy.
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Hello
the material that I used is as ferrite beads is this
http://www.ebay.it/itm/140493166602?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
I stacked three with a drop of glue and the poles (that are actually alnico, not steel) pass through. They are adjustable, however not through the screws that are dummy. If I want to raise a pole I use a magnet to pull it out, or I can push it to make it lower.
I decided to use the ferrite beads because I have no tools to drill properly laminations, and thinking that this would add some inductive material with very little eddy currents. The principle is the same as using laminations.
I am now working to an alternative design where laminations are aside of the poles and will install on a Tractor bass clone that I am building.
Regarding how the pickup sounds I cannot compare to the real thing, since I have never played, but listening to the samples on the Dark Star site, and comparing to what I play I can recognize some similarities.
Neodymium is very good to my ears. I have winded until now 4 Jazz pick-ups, 1 split coil precision-like and two humbuckers (actually 3 but one was crap due to constructive defects). For all I used steel poles.
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That makes sense, thanks for sharing. I think I'll do some experimenting in the new year.
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Just an update with my last creation. One more badsonic this time with neodymium magnets is installed in a jazz body. As soon as I replace my broken soundcard will post samples, however sound of this bass, a Berry Oakley tribute, is great.
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/sany0032.jpg)
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The Tractor is great!
I'd love to hear samples, so get that sound card fixed :mrgreen: