The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: wellREDman on November 17, 2012, 01:34:06 PM
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Hi all, been lurking here for a while admiring the work and trying to get up the impetus to post my question...
I work at a special needs unit for Autistic kids, and part of my work entails coaching several groups of kids playing together a la "school of Rock". I am a bass player primarily, but can play enough drums, guitar and keyboards to support them all as they learn.
As I teach them I am perpetually having to swap back and forward between Bass and guitar which is a bit of a nause, and with my kids and their attention spans/patience levels can be very distracting for them.
In an Ideal world I would buy myself a nice twin neck and all would be good, but on my salary/budget that is a pipe-dream.
my question is this....
given that on thru neck basses the sides of the body are glued on, is there any reason why I cant buy myself a second hand encore p-bass and strat (or whatever) cut the top off one and the bottom of the other and glue/dowel/plate/bolt the two together to make a cheap and cheerful twin?
I have stripped and resprayed basses before, and done enough joinery, rewiring and bodywork to be confident I can do the job, I just want to know if there is any fundamental reason that it won't work.
obviously it's not ideal but it's the only work around I can figure given my situation.
cheers
Red
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Can't see an issue with that and welcome Señor Red - tough and worthy job...
if it's going to be function over form then it makes no difference what it is...
(http://www.shergold.co.uk/images/farm/clipsapart.jpg)
This is similar to one used by Mike Rutherford and I saw Jim Rodford use a (Fender Strat/P?) post Argent with a band called Phoenix - both instruments could be used as a doubleneck or as individual instruments...
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Welcome Red,
Sounds like a great idea to me! Look forward to following the build. If you use a LH guitar or bass for the 'bottom' instrument it will be really easy to combine the controls in one place.
http://www.rondomusic.com/BassLeft.html
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If I use a 3 pup strat as the bottom, I was just gonna lose one and wire in the basspup , so just use the selector switch to switch between guitar neck pup, guitar bridge pup and bass, one set of pots keep things simple.
it will be a while before I start though, have to see what ebay washes up locally within my budget. and need to finish my current rebuild first.
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All projects take the time they take - some more than most (guilty as
sheded charged) ...
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Makes sense to me. There also have been a raft of cheapy models on eBays in recent months. Might be a good alternative too. But, making one is always more rewarding and fun!
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Okay so I have a cheap tele copy and a cheap p-bass copy, am currently stripping the gubbins out of them both ready for the saw...
any advice on gluing them together? type of glue etc.
I plan on cutting them both with a matching alternate step so that I can slide them around laterally to find a comfortable fit. Ill use screws to hold them together initially then glue them, after that I plan on removing the screws and drilling/dowelling the join
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I would use regular Titebond or its equivalent; if your joint is clean with no gaps and is clamped properly with enough pressure (according to the manufacturer's recommendations), you won't need dowels, screws or anything else.
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Dave is right on. Titebond is all you need with flat straight surfaces.
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Sounds like a cool project! Pictures when done :) A third vote for Titebond, clamped over night. They say you can unclamp and work with it after one hour but I never do.
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A word about Titebond. Back in 1979 when my NR T-Bird headstock broke I took it to a shop in Dekalb Illinois to have it fixed. He used Titebond and laminated a maple veneer on the front. It didn't last. The second time he also laminated the back of the headstock. It too didn't last. The third time he said he wouldn't fix it again if it broke. It did break again. This all happened within months. After the third time I decided to fix it myself, which I did using Elmers Carpenters Glue. It held for 18 years before it broke again.
In talking to people about the failure of the repair by the professional repair guy the possibility was raised that he had clamped the parts too tightly. They said clamping too tightly weakens the joint. I'm not an expert, just sharing my experience and echoing Dave's recommendation to clamp properly with enough pressure, according to the manufacturer's recommendations.
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I've read the saem thing about "too tight" and I've backed off on going crazy with pressure when clamping. Also, the surfaces to be clamped should NOT be sanded glassy smooth. I rough them up a little with 100 grit which seems to improve adhesion. The glue needs to penetrate both surfaces with a microscopic film in between.
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To much pressure and you will starve the joint of glue. Also when gluing two edges together I score cross hatches on each edge with a chisel being careful not to break to the edge.
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Most failures are from not clamping tightly enough or not applying clamping force in the right direction. If the joint is sanded glassy smooth, it's possible to starve the joint, but who does finish sanding of a glue joint? Not I!
Titebond and similar aliphatic resin glues operate with an almost infinitely thin film. If the joint is properly prepared -- planed or cut smooth and well-fitting -- it's almost impossible to starve the joint.
Of course glue joint failures do happen. On guitars, the most common I've seen have been on scarf jointed necks on some Asian guitars.
For a few years recently, Gibson was putting the glue type in the specs: Titebond 50, which is a commercial quantity version of the original (aliphatic resin) Titebond. If it's good enough for Gibson, it's good enough for me. As always, YMMV.
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Most failures are from not clamping tightly enough or not applying clamping force in the right direction. If the joint is sanded glassy smooth, it's possible to starve the joint, but who does finish sanding of a glue joint? Not I!
Titebond and similar aliphatic resin glues operate with an almost infinitely thin film. If the joint is properly prepared -- planed or cut smooth and well-fitting -- it's almost impossible to starve the joint.
Of course glue joint failures do happen. On guitars, the most common I've seen have been on scarf jointed necks on some Asian guitars.
For a few years recently, Gibson was putting the glue type in the specs: Titebond 50, which is a commercial quantity version of the original (aliphatic resin) Titebond. If it's good enough for Gibson, it's good enough for me. As always, YMMV.
Titebond works on the molecular level, it bonds with the moisture of the wood. It's close to impossible to plane too smoothly, the usual cause of failure is bad joinery or improper clamping. A proper joint will almost never fail at the glue line, it will be the wood on either side of it. You want a zero thickness glue line.
The problem in China when I was there was using cheap glue, (casein based, milk, like Elmer's white glue). Glue pots were left open and the stuff went bad in the S. China heat. Switching to aliphatic resin Titebond 1 and following best practices solved the problem but it was a fight to get the factories to buy the right glue. A big run of Pottery Barn dining chairs failing did the trick.
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Titebond works on the molecular level, it bonds with the moisture of the wood. It's close to impossible to plane too smoothly, the usual cause of failure is bad joinery or improper clamping. A proper joint will almost never fail at the glue line, it will be the wood on either side of it. You want a zero thickness glue line.
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Franklin's Titebond product guide (http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF683_GlueGuideTB.sflb.ashx) (.pdf) specifically says "no saw marks and no burnishing of the surfaces to be glued." If you keep your planer blades sharp, you won't plane too smoothly, but then you were in the furniture business and you know that. I've seen home woodworkers who don't keep their blades sharp, and others who think it's okay to sand the surface to a gloss.
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Finished it :rimshot: :toast:
http://imgur.com/a/gNDLp#0 (http://imgur.com/a/gNDLp#0)
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That came out GREAT!
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Very impressive!
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WOW! That looks super cool! That's a pretty tidy job :toast:
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very nice.
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:toast: Looks good!!
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thanks guys,
was a steep learning curve,
It looks good in the photos but the finish doesn't bear close inspection.
when I embarked on this Project I thought it would be my joinery skill that let me down not my spray painting skills, I come from a sculpture and prop making background and have done a bit of graf so I thought the paint job would be easy. turns out doing a large plain area with is deep factory shine is actually more of a black art than flashy shadings and highlights . I ended up redoing it three times to try and get the nice finish I wanted, and typically the first one was probably the best. in the end it was budget that made me stop, I spent more on spray paint than I did the guitars. But the whole thing came in at under £200, over budget but not by too much.
I made myself stop and finish it as it's meant to be a workhorse not a show pony, but the bad paint job does bug me so I'm already thinking about having a go at relic-ing, but I have other projects to get to first..
Talking of which there is a sentimental touch in that the machine heads and volume and tone knobs on the twin were both taken off my first Bass, a short scale epiphone ET-280 that I am now ressurecting as a T-bird inspired travel bass.
All in all though I am pleased with my first attempt at Luthery, Its a bit on the heavy side, and I thought about routing out some of the wood thats hidden behind the scratchplate but it's a bit on the neck divey side anyway so I don't know on that.
But I woldnt have even attempted this without the things I have learnt from all you guys, so once again Thanks
Red
(http://imgur.com/a/gNDLp#21)
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Excellent...
Neck-dive is a way of life round here... ;)
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All in all though I am pleased with my first attempt at Luthery, Its a bit on the heavy side, and I thought about routing out some of the wood thats hidden behind the scratchplate but it's a bit on the neck divey side anyway so I don't know on that.
I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that such an instrument would be heavy and neck-divey!!
(http://www.atomicexpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Casablanca36-1.jpeg)
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Nice work. Finishing gets easier with practice!
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Really impressive job!
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I made bass of the week at
http://www.bestbassgear.com/ebass/bass-of-the-week/bass-of-the-week-twin-tele.html
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Congratulations!
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Cool!!
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Way to Go!
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Nice work and recognition!
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Excellent...!
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:thumbsup: :toast:
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Congrats man. You DEFINITELY classed both of those instruments up!
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I saw that on facebook. I KNEW I'd seen that beast somewhere before. Congrats!
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That is a beautiful job & a tribute to fenders great ladies. I dug out a pic of Alan Woody of Govt Mule & ABB fame. He was originally a mandolin player so he had a Gibby Double made with LP bass & a mandolin. Very cool . he may have had more than 1 , he was quite a collecktor!
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Finished it :rimshot: :toast:
http://imgur.com/a/gNDLp#0 (http://imgur.com/a/gNDLp#0)
Wow, how cool is that? My 2 fsvorites mated as one.
Nice.
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Very, very cool.
I like guitar hung high and bass hung low so I would've reversed them, but I know a lot of guys like their basses high up so it's all up to what plays better for you, innit?
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Very, very cool.
I like guitar hung high and bass hung low so I would've reversed them
+1
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I think this is the first guitar/bass I ever saw ... pretty hideous right? The builder was in a band called Spongehead back in the late 80s - early 90s. Cool weird band. I don't know what he made it out of, but it sounded pretty good to me.
(http://douglashenderson.org/Images/aa%20new%20images/Dbl_Guitar.jpg)
Interestingly, when he played guitar, the bass role was played by his brother playing baritone sax through an octave pedal into a bass amp. THAT was a cool sound.
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thanks guys,
was a steep learning curve,
It looks good in the photos but the finish doesn't bear close inspection.
when I embarked on this Project I thought it would be my joinery skill that let me down not my spray painting skills, I come from a sculpture and prop making background and have done a bit of graf so I thought the paint job would be easy. turns out doing a large plain area with is deep factory shine is actually more of a black art than flashy shadings and highlights . I ended up redoing it three times to try and get the nice finish I wanted, and typically the first one was probably the best. in the end it was budget that made me stop, I spent more on spray paint than I did the guitars. But the whole thing came in at under £200, over budget but not by too much.
I made myself stop and finish it as it's meant to be a workhorse not a show pony, but the bad paint job does bug me so I'm already thinking about having a go at relic-ing, but I have other projects to get to first..
Talking of which there is a sentimental touch in that the machine heads and volume and tone knobs on the twin were both taken off my first Bass, a short scale epiphone ET-280 that I am now ressurecting as a T-bird inspired travel bass.
All in all though I am pleased with my first attempt at Luthery, Its a bit on the heavy side, and I thought about routing out some of the wood thats hidden behind the scratchplate but it's a bit on the neck divey side anyway so I don't know on that.
But I woldnt have even attempted this without the things I have learnt from all you guys, so once again Thanks
Red
(http://imgur.com/a/gNDLp#21)
Impressed! ;)
Anyone who has read my blog, knows that I have a love for Twin Necks.
Top job, for not many £££.
Unique and nice.
I guess you are on this side of the pond?
What sort of stuff do you play on your new found friend - and don't say "Notes",
I've been caught out with that one before!! ;D
Cheers. :)
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Its a teaching aid really,
I coach rock'nroll at a special needs unit for autistic kids, so when I am teaching guitar or bass I can swap between showing them how to play a part, then accompanying them on the other instrument