The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Bass Zone => Topic started by: Tim Brosnan on January 29, 2017, 08:00:46 PM
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On another site, it would seem that a great majority of electric bassists are switching from roundwounds, back to flatwounds. Out in the real world however, most bassists I know and see of are still using rounds. Are you guys seeing this trend at all?
I like flats for some things, but generally, I prefer rounds. I know Carol Kaye talks about using flats for a "true bass sound," but I believe rounds still rule overall. What do you guys think?
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I don't know what others are doing but I have a couple basses with flats and the rest are rounds. If I had to choose only one I'd choose the rounds and adjust EQ as needed.
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It's a bass forum thing, not a real world thing. A lot of guys on bass forums love to talk up flats, but rounds outsell flats many times over. A few years ago I talked to the production manager of one of the large string makers who indicated that the ratio was about 30 to 1, at least with that company.
Flats fans always claim that flats last for years, but that's misleading. For one thing, flats don't have the high overtones to begin with, so naturally they don't lose them. Also, metal fatigue happens in all strings under tension, regardless of the outer wrap, and eventually the strings can't be intonated properly. When somebody claims he's had the same flats on 25 or so years, then either they've only been lightly played (or the bass was stored for years), or their intonation is off.
The only players I know who go through rounds quickly are guys who want their strings to always sound as brilliant as when they're fresh out of the package, and guys who sweat a lot or have acid sweat.
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I think there IS a trend, but like Dave says, not as big as you might pressume. For my magazine I wrote an article about it and I did some research too.
When I started as a bass player there was one shop in my area who had some d'Addario Chromes in stock and nowadays the shops I visit have more choice. I asked some shops: they don't sell that much, but significantly more than before. I think it has to do with a retro sound which is quite big at the moment. Think Amy Winehouse, Vintage Trouble, Americana, old skool soul kinda music and the hipster indie stuff: the indie guys and girs want the pick/flats sound: a click and a low oomph. I see quite some bass players who bought a asian Höfner or an old solid body Höfner (or similar) for flats, or they have a second P with flats.
When I started interviewing bass players 10 years ago I ran into a flats user once a year and nowadays a lot of Dutch and international players tell me they use flats on one bass. Noel Gallagher's bass player has a Rick with flats for certain songs, John Stirratt of Wilco uses them quite a lot and some Dutch players you won't know. I know Sean Hurley of John Mayer is a fan of flats and Nathan Sudders of Guy Garvey (Elbow) told me he likes to have both. Clinician Andy Irvine loves them for recording.
I'm also trying out some brands on some basses and I just ordered a special Mustang set by La Bella.
Having said that: It doesn't surprise me that the ratio of rounds versus flats is 30 to 1. Of course no slapper at let's say the Warwick Bass Camp uses them, not many metal heads (Steve Harris of course does) use them and I guess every country has a big percentage of bass players who just gig their P or J with rounds and don't bother what's hip or not. But I think in certain genres they are used more.
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PS: Switch? No. More and more used? Yes.
PS2: I thnk all records until the middle of the seventies were played with flatwounds. So a lot of old records we all love have 'm. hat might be a reason,
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I never understood the hype about Tomastik flats that was going on about ten years ago.
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There's more than Thomastik:) I use a set and they're not my favourite.
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I'd say flatwound (let's include halfrounds here too) players are nowadays a respected minority with a stable population and no longer at the brink of extinction. Music shops now all carry a small range of flats (not as wide a variety as with roundwounds of course) and the days are over where you had to specifically order flatwounds (as they would not store them) and got a weird look "What do you want those for?" Moreover, some bass makers even deliver their instruments (often fretlless, hollow body or with a vintage image) with flatwounds nowadays - that was unheard of in the 80ies.
Unless stringed bass playing dies out completely, they won't be going away, but I can't see them ever overtaking roundwounds again. Most bass playing you hear on the radio is played with roundwounds, songs with a vintage click "pick & flats"-sound do exist but are mostly one-off recordings aiming at a 60ies sound.
And card-carrying Iron Maiden fans are anyhow the people that listen to flatwound bass most. :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szyk3KRJbF4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBWoKaZKNXA
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I never understood the hype about Tomastik flats that was going on about ten years ago.
I do. They have this middish thing and not too much zing, for those who don't like that. Great thump on a P or similar, for example, but doesn't work on every bass or for all tastes. They also last a long time (intonation can be adjusted, and yes it will drift over time not just due to metal fatigue but also weather - usually requires a minor tweak every half year to quarter, at least with our weather).
I prefer Pyramids on my Triumph, but they break too easy considerring the price. Next to try - those cheap Allparts no name flats we group bought a while back.
I just can't play rounds because they tear up me fingers (dishydrotic eczema) and I don't like the excessive top end anyway.
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PS: Switch? No. More and more used? Yes.
PS2: I thnk all records until the middle of the seventies were played with flatwounds. So a lot of old records we all love have 'm. hat might be a reason,
I agree with your first PS. Flats have definitely become more common in the 15 years or so when they started being discussed online. Labella is a specialty company and I'm sure their business has increased. But still not even remotely near rounds in usage.
The move to rounds started in the mid 60s. JAE had a lot to do with that. Many session pros still used flats well into the 70s (and beyond) but most bassists in performing bands adopted rounds within a few years. FWIW, Danelectros always came with rounds.
I never understood the hype about Tomastik flats that was going on about ten years ago.
Same here. As I've said before, no lows, no highs, must be TIs. Their tone is almost all warm blurry midrange, and if that sound is what you like, fine with me. But they are seriously lacking in fundamental.
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Until recently I was in a cover band playing late 60s/early 70s music. I'd always bring two basses to shows - one with flats, one with rounds. The bass strung with rounds (usually a Rick) would be used for Who and a few other songs. But a majority of songs sounded better (to my worn out ears) with flats.
But I wonder if anyone in the audience noticed or cared. Probably not.
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Same here. As I've said before, no lows, no highs, must be TIs. Their tone is almost all warm blurry midrange, and if that sound is what you like, fine with me. But they are seriously lacking in fundamental.
Lets not exaggerate Dave. They have plenty of bottom; just that on many basses the mid bump is exacerbated by the bass' own response and it feels like the bottom is weak in comparison.
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I got a free set of Thomastiks once in a strange gauge. I think the E is .096. The sound very nice on the Verythin. Enough lows.
In this vid I don't move that more than the guitar player, but the Entwistle-ish moving mandoline player makes me look like the freak drummer in the wrong band.... Well, this is not my band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0EwNh7FSHM
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Lets not exaggerate Dave. They have plenty of bottom; just that on many basses the mid bump is exacerbated by the bass' own response and it feels like the bottom is weak in comparison.
"No lows, no highs" is a deliberate exaggeration, it's my play on the old "no highs, no lows, must be Bose." But IMHO Thomastiks are seriously deficient in fundamentals. That low mid bump may fool some people, it doesn't fool my ears. Still, if it sounds good to you, that's fine with me.
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I think the TI jazz flats are nice strings, just not my thing.
I know session guys will usually have a bass with flats on it, but most modern music to me sounds like rounds.
No knock on anybody who likes flats, I like them for certain things. It just seems there's this big trend back to flats, although I don't think it's as much as the world wide web would have us believe.
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I've used flats on the RD for some years now, but I have the neck as bare maple with no cover so it's self-preservation... Mostly Roto Jazz strings... I have TI's on a 5 string fretless acoustic for the same reasons... The Jazz has the same Roto's... not sure what I'm putting on the AD once I finish the neck...
The PC's only ever had round Roto's for decades now...
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I did try some TI flats on one of my Thunderbirds once..........
No more big angry piano.
Never again :puke:
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I've always played predominately flats. Would guess its just that they felt more natural to me having migrated off the upright. I did resort to playing rounds for a brief period just because it was next to impossible to find flats in a store. Kind of nice that you actually see them stocked more now.
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Two of my basses have flats the rest all wear rounds.
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I think Dave and I were have it right. I'm a big LaBellas Deep Talkin' flats fan but my sound is 60s and 70s intentionally.
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Big difference when talking about short scales or long scales as well.
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The trouble with flats is that they last so much longer than rounds, even to my insane heavy handed bass abuse. I'm dying to try the set of LaBella flats that came as a bonus when I bought my G&L L-5500 about ten years ago, but all of my basses I think they would best complement are already flat-equipped. For me, I like the extra tension compared to similar gauged rounds on my rock basses, my homemade ESP/Fender and my Epi Les Paul Standard, that the Ernie Ball flats on them provide, but I don't have a P-Bass that I want to use them on; my Mexi-P is a second with an inch-too-shallow neck pocket giving it an accidental 35" scale. It's great for detuning, but not an ideal vintage thumper. My Mexi J fretless still has its stock early 2000's flats and they show no signs of dying anytime soon. Basically, I need a P-Bass since I can't do short scale Gibbys.
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I never understood the hype about Tomastik flats that was going on about ten years ago.
There was a TI hype? Never noticed..
Anyway, I got my first TI set in 1995 and have used them since. They sound great and most important they feel great. I do like what a round core bass string does compared to a hex core. I usually keep calm when gear is discussed online, but I will stand up for TI again and again.
I think it's both stupid and unfair to say that they make bad strings or that they sound bad. I know more than one bass player who 'got a set for free from someone who didn't like them, but they were extremely thin and floppy'. Well, they make them thicker and they make tem roundwound. Well, I don't like too thick gauge strings - but then again I would not put them on a bass and give them a bad review, like 'TI make junk strings' (I actually see that online from time to time)
It feels (to me) the same as when people buy processed meat all year - supermarket quality - and when they taste something from the local butcher it just tastes weird!
I admit to have a 'normal' stainless steel set on my Grabber though, I like how it sounds all punky and fresh just like when i was a kid.
And on my Rick 4001 I use either EXL RED's (D'addario) or nickel rounds of some other generic brand.
Otherwise, it's TI's alll over!
(ducking) :-X
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My '76 Tbird died too with flats.
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I have been all over the board with this, but have settled on Dadarrio exl 170 rounds...cheap, easy on the neck, and easy to find. Sound good too. Flats are just not bright or flexible enough.
Love rounds on my new Gibson 5 string 2013 EB.
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There was a TI hype? Never noticed..
Anyway, I got my first TI set in 1995 and have used them since. They sound great and most important they feel great. I do like what a round core bass string does compared to a hex core. I usually keep calm when gear is discussed online, but I will stand up for TI again and again.
I think it's both stupid and unfair to say that they make bad strings or that they sound bad. I know more than one bass player who 'got a set for free from someone who didn't like them, but they were extremely thin and floppy'. Well, they make them thicker and they make tem roundwound. Well, I don't like too thick gauge strings - but then again I would not put them on a bass and give them a bad review, like 'TI make junk strings' (I actually see that online from time to time)
It feels (to me) the same as when people buy processed meat all year - supermarket quality - and when they taste something from the local butcher it just tastes weird!
I admit to have a 'normal' stainless steel set on my Grabber though, I like how it sounds all punky and fresh just like when i was a kid.
And on my Rick 4001 I use either EXL RED's (D'addario) or nickel rounds of some other generic brand.
Otherwise, it's TI's alll over!
(ducking) :-X
No reason to duck. I'm not aware of anyone saying that TI makes bad strings, only that they don't like the tone and/or the feel. That's just a matter of personal taste.
There was a huge TI hype here in the early 00s, a lot of it was promoted by Steve Barr, first at the FDP and then at the Dudepit.
Round core vs hex core is misunderstood. The size of the core wire has a lot more to do with flexibility than the shape. It also has a lot to do with tension, since core wire is solid and outer wrappings always have some air space in between.
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There was a huge TI hype here in the early 00s, a lot of it was promoted by Steve Barr, first at the FDP and then at the Dudepit.
I think you're right. It was more than ten years ago.
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Yes the mass hysterias I remember were first TI's followed by Darkstars. I use flats on about 25% of my basses. I prefer Chromes mostly but on the fretless Ripper TI's work better to my ears. However I don't agree about modern music obviously using rounds. Most modern music (generally speaking) has the bass guitar eq'd so that I don't hear anything above 500Hz so if there's roundwound stirngs on the bass I can't actually hear it. And yes, I do hear the cymbals (and still hear the crickets).
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There are pros and cons for flats and rounds for me. I got a Hofner Ignition with LaBella flats, but exchanged it for a Contemporary. I was expecting to like the LaBella strings more since people seem to recommend them so much. They were okay, but when I got the Contemporary the first thing i noticed is how much more at ease I felt playing strings that weren't so smooth. Also, the overall sound was much more aggressive, although this could also have to do with the Contemporary being a much better bass. I like flats because they last longer. Plus, I've played them more through the years. But rounds definitely have a feel more to my liking.
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Yes the mass hysterias I remember were first TI's followed by Darkstars. I use flats on about 25% of my basses. I prefer Chromes mostly but on the fretless Ripper TI's work better to my ears. However I don't agree about modern music obviously using rounds. Most modern music (generally speaking) has the bass guitar eq'd so that I don't hear anything above 500Hz so if there's roundwound stirngs on the bass I can't actually hear it. And yes, I do hear the cymbals (and still hear the crickets).
Based on sales alone, I'm confident that rounds are much more common, but you're right, it's hard to tell. Even before modern eq it was difficult to tell in live recordings and often in studio recordings where the bass wasn't prominent in the mix.
Right about the Darkstar mania. At the Pit, it seemed like every few hours someone would post a link to a husk of some nondescript bass on eBay and say "Darkstar candidate" -- as if a POS could be magically transformed. And some guys would mod brand new expensive basses with Darkstars, then a few months later would try to sell them at an increased price. That worked for a while b/c they were selling them to each other. Then values fell. Not that there's anything wrong with Darkstars, but the hysteria was hard to understand.
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Then values fell. Not that there's anything wrong with Darkstars, but the hysteria was hard to understand.
I sold one on Talk Bass for $300 two years or so ago...in 15 minutes. That was after Novak came out with his @ $300 and before Guild intro'd their reissue Bi sonic for less than $100.
Now all the yahoos are calling the Guilds 'Dark Stars' and I'm sure the price of an original Hammon isn't what it was...tulips anyone?
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I sold one on Talk Bass for $300 two years or so ago...in 15 minutes. That was after Novak came out with his @ $300 and before Guild intro'd their reissue Bi sonic for less than $100.
Now all the yahoos are calling the Guilds 'Dark Stars' and I'm sure the price of an original Hammon isn't what it was...tulips anyone?
I'm surprised as well, but try and find a Darkstar for less now. And I am surprised again, but it sure seems like the new Guild 'stars don't cut the mustard. Hype? Maybe.
Full disclosure -
My primary recording bass is a hollow M-85 equipped with Bisonics and TI-Jazz flats. The engineer at the studio we are using told me "I have never heard a bass that sounds so fat yet articulate."
On some songs my Rick sounds better, but no one at the studio or in the band ever asks me to play my Fender instead of the Guild, though I offer the option on every song. Maybe there was something to all that hype, eh? I am sure glad I fell for it.
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I think Carlo was attesting to the hype that Darkstars had more than dissing Bisonic tone. More than once I remember Darkstar fans proclaiming them to be superior to just about everything, including the Bisonics they were modeled after. I was curious about what all the fuss was over, but not enough to make a huge rout in anything I already had. I've played plenty of old Guilds and found them to be nice, but not for me. Steve Barr also likely coined the term "mudbucker" in reference to Gibson Sidewinders. There were quite a few folks who spent copious amounts of money based on the recommendations of members there back in the day and most were pretty happy for awhile and then moved on to the next trend when it arose. The whole TI flats thing caught my attention, but I WANT higher tension strings when I use flats, so I decided that they probably weren't for me unless the tone was just unreal. The neatest strings I ever played were on some import Italian bass from the 60's (can't remember the brand) that was short scale. They were "flatwounds," but unlike any I have seen before or since with the strings themselves having a rubberized coating, like modern tapewounds, but looking to have literally been dipped in liquid rubber. I still rolled the tone knob off. :P
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I sold one on Talk Bass for $300 two years or so ago...in 15 minutes. That was after Novak came out with his @ $300 and before Guild intro'd their reissue Bi sonic for less than $100.
I wasn't talking about the price of the pickups, but about the value of the DS-modded basses. Pickup prices were bound to increase after Fred disappeared. But back then, guys were modding new expensive basses with Dark Stars and asking the price of the bass plus the price of the pickups and labor to mod them, and more. That lasted for a while, until they ran out of willing buyers.
Now all the yahoos are calling the Guilds 'Dark Stars' and I'm sure the price of an original Hammon isn't what it was...tulips anyone?
Yeah, I don't get that either. A Dark Star was Fred's hotrodded version of the original Bisonic. No one should expect the reissue Bisonic to be a Dark Star.
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I think Carlo was attesting to the hype that Darkstars had more than dissing Bisonic tone. More than once I remember Darkstar fans proclaiming them to be superior to just about everything, including the Bisonics they were modeled after. I was curious about what all the fuss was over, but not enough to make a huge rout in anything I already had. I've played plenty of old Guilds and found them to be nice, but not for me. Steve Barr also likely coined the term "mudbucker" in reference to Gibson Sidewinders. There were quite a few folks who spent copious amounts of money based on the recommendations of members there back in the day and most were pretty happy for awhile and then moved on to the next trend when it arose. The whole TI flats thing caught my attention, but I WANT higher tension strings when I use flats, so I decided that they probably weren't for me unless the tone was just unreal. The neatest strings I ever played were on some import Italian bass from the 60's (can't remember the brand) that was short scale. They were "flatwounds," but unlike any I have seen before or since with the strings themselves having a rubberized coating, like modern tapewounds, but looking to have literally been dipped in liquid rubber. I still rolled the tone knob off. :P
Yep, the Pit always had lots of bandwagon-jumping and then later moving on. Dude's following became a cult of personality, although he never intended it that way, he just wanted to sell product and promote others (e.g Fred Hammon) whose products he liked.
The operative phrase about Dark Stars was that they had "wide range tone," as if that made them superior. Well, you can get wide range tone with EMGs, too. The question should be whether or not you like the tone. I like the original Bisonics okay but liked the later Guild humbuckers better. The Dark Stars did nothing for me.
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All my basses have worn flats only for the past 20 years. Recently I bought a used bass with rounds on it, and have kept those on it, because when I first owned one of those basses in the 1980s it had rounds on it, so this one felt quite familiar. Otherwise, it's flats for me - all my other basses are wearing a selection of Pyramids, TIs, Chromes and EB Flats.