The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Rickenbacker Basses => Topic started by: ilan on January 01, 2016, 12:16:59 PM
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He keeps drilling them (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rickenbacker-2015-4003sw-5-String-Bass-Guitar-Walnut-/331744471822).
Some like his initiative since RIC doesn't offer 5-string basses. Me, I think many people will be really sorry in the future for what used to be such nice basses. This is going to be like all the vintage Strats drilled and routed for Floyd Rose trems and humbuckers, IMHO.
What's your opinion?
(http://www.3dentourage.com/425/4003sw5%20010.jpg)
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I could only offer the butcher's perspective...
If you want a fiver and there is not an available model, what other option do you have...?
None...
But then again, I've never bought an instrument with the intention of selling it, or worried about its intrinsic value, i.e. the PC...
My only concern about an instrument is the playability...
Now... did you want steak or mince...? :mrgreen:
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I don't get the whole 'can't live without my 5er' mentality really. I don't see a 33 1/4'' instrument as the best candidate for a 5er anyway. Rather I would have something made custom, or modify something, with pickups in the 4003's locations. I think Jeff does the work justice, as they don't seem rough conversions in any way. I don't think the work adds any value to the instruments, as it is still a garden shed chop at the end of the day. He is trying to sell this thing for list price, whereas I think such mods easily lop 1/3 of the price, purely because they weren't performed by a renowned luthier.
I also wonder if he is stuck in the rut of modding every Rick bass blindly, just to say he made a 5er conversion out of a Laredo, or whatever. Perhaps I'm being too cynical, but those walnut basses have only been out a year or so. Seems odd to buy one, decide to instantly perform non-reversible mods, then chuck it up on Ebay at list price, presumably making a minor loss for the cost of the new nut, bridge saddles and tuner.
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I agree, but what can you do or say? He's always had a few buyers for his conversions.
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All of the above here.
What the hell it's your bass do what you want. Where do people think artist models or custom shops come from?
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Another valid question would be to ask if 2010 - 2015 Rickenbacker basses are actually going to be regarded as gems in the future anyway. I don't see his work as akin to the modding pre-CBS Fenders, which is the angle the OP is heading for. There seems to be an element of the Rick crowd that are adversed to any sort of mods, and who steadfastly believe that any such mods erase the Rick tone forever. With Jeff I just see a guy that doggedly has to play Ricks and doggedly has to have a low-B and is compelled to tell the world every time he sticks one under the knife. The string spacing must be pretty tight at the nut anyway! I'm not convinced his instruments are going to be the most playable, as you are basically singing one song to the tune of another by cramming an extra string on there.
If rumours are true, and John Hall is set to stand down as mighty leader of the People's Republic of Ric, then we may see an upswing in terms of the range of models, finishes and general QC around Rick basses in the next few years.
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Another valid question would be to ask if 2010 - 2015 Rickenbacker basses are actually going to be regarded as gems in the future anyway. I don't see his work as akin to the modding pre-CBS Fenders, which is the angle the OP is heading for. There seems to be an element of the Rick crowd that are adversed to any sort of mods, and who steadfastly believe that any such mods erase the Rick tone forever. With Jeff I just see a guy that doggedly has to play Ricks and doggedly has to have a low-B and is compelled to tell the world every time he sticks one under the knife. The string spacing must be pretty tight at the nut anyway! I'm not convinced his instruments are going to be the most playable, as you are basically singing one song to the tune of another by cramming an extra string on there.
If rumours are true, and John Hall is set to stand down as mighty leader of the People's Republic of Ric, then we may see an upswing in terms of the range of models, finishes and general QC around Rick basses in the next few years.
Jeff has been doing this since the early 00s, and to basses older than that. Not that I mind, it's his decision and he wouldn't be doing it for others if he didn't have buyers.
About 15 years ago I passed on an early 90s mapleglo/black trim 4003 that was priced at $500 since I already had a newer 4003. I'd have to pay about 3x that today. Future prices? I won't guess, but it won't surprise me at all if today's Ricks become valuable 25 years from now. I can remember when many people thought 70s Fenders were awful, and look at the prices today.
If John Hall steps down, won't his sons take over? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for major changes.
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IMO as geezers die off prices for all 'vintage' basses and guitars except for the very rare or historic models won't keep up with inflation. Today's kids don't give a crap about them, it's a disposable society.
Obviously there's a market for the guy's fivers or he'd stop building them. I do wonder why he doesn't show the back of his headstock modification, got to be some visible screw holes at least.
Every Rick he mods makes the untouched ones more valuable so if you got an unmodded one you should be happy...IMO.
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My take of this is that I think he's trying to fill a nice market that RIC has chosen not to address (for a host of reasons). There are very few major manufactures out there today who don't offer a 5 string bass in their product line up. Since RIC doesn't and there's definitely bass players out there who would love to have a 5 string RIC, Jeff's modified 4 to 5 conversion is attractive to those players and they'll pay what every the asking price is just to own one.
Personally, I bought a new 4003S/5 back in 1998 and the string spacing was so tight that it was almost unplayable. Fortunately for me that bass quickly developed finish problems which allowed me to return it for 100% refund. The 4 to 5 conversion must have even tighter string spacing than the 4003S/5 since the neck width of a 4003 is 1/16" narrower than the neck of a 4003S/5.
Ultimately until RIC comes up with a newly designed 5-string bass I can see there being a small but steady market for the 4 to 5 conversion RIC's. And just because JH may be about to retire, I wouldn't expect anything new to be introduced by his son Ben for quite sometime.
TD
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First off, Jeff declines offers to convert truly collectible models, so I don't think he is diminishing future values.
Actually, the necks on the 4003S/5 were the same as the four-string models, but measurements vary among all models, so you may find one that is a bit wider. That was the main objection to the S/5 model. Jeff's conversion doesn't widen the neck, but does spread the distance between strings a bit by use of a custom-made bridge. You may find the outer strings (B and G) to be a bit too "close to the edge." He also rebuilds the stock pickups by adding a fifth pole and redistributing the others.
Jeff chooses to add the fifth tuner in between the third and fourth string (G side) and does not relocate any of the other tuners. There won't be any dowel-filled holes or extra mounting holes visible.
Jeff also changes the pot values (ask him about that), so not all of the "improvements" are seen in photos. Personally, I think Jeff's conversions are great and fill a need for those who want five-string Ricks that look as good as new. If you don't want 'em, get a four and enjoy! :)
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I could only offer the butcher's perspective...
If you want a fiver and there is not an available model, what other option do you have...?
None...
Um, how about a custom from-scratch build? If you can afford a Ric, plus this mod service, you can afford a custom job.
Not that I have any problem with the mod. Just saying; there's options. I really don't feel too sad for people who insist it must be a real Ric 5er.
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Jeff chooses to add the fifth tuner in between the third and fourth string (G side) and does not relocate any of the other tuners. There won't be any dowel-filled holes or extra mounting holes visible.
Looks like he's using Gotoh style y tuners. How does he deal with the 16 screw holes left by the replaced large footprint tuners?
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/03/4003W%20tuners_zpstvuu49u0.jpg) (http://s976.photobucket.com/user/cata1d0/media/03/4003W%20tuners_zpstvuu49u0.jpg.html)
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IMO as geezers die off prices for all 'vintage' basses and guitars except for the very rare or historic models won't keep up with inflation. Today's kids don't give a crap about them, it's a disposable society.....
LOL! That's the exact same thing some guys were saying about 15 years ago! Kids today don't play guitar, it's all disposable to them anyway, etc. I remember a discussion at Rickresource where one poster actually lectured John Hall on what he had to do to keep the company afloat because this would happen. Now demand for new ones is high as ever and 80s to mid 90s Ricks are "vintage" enough to sell for 2x-4x what they sold for in the early 00s.
You didn't just hear that about Ricks, either, the same was said about then-recent models from Gibson, Fender et al. Fast forward to today, and now discontinued 80s Gibsons like the Victory, oddball Fenders like the Performer, 3-bolt G&Ls, etc. all selling for at least twice what they did back then when those predictions were made.
Long story short: don't bet against values rising.
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...I wouldn't expect anything new to be introduced by his son Ben for quite sometime.
TD
As far as I can tell, it has been Ben who has been behind the creation of all those one-offs that have been on RIC Outlet over the years, along with some cool, new colors for special runs, and special models, too. 8)
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As far as 5 string basses go, I have two wonderful Martin Keith Elfin 5 basses, a fretted and a fretless, and they fill those rolls perfectly. When I need/want 4 string basses, Rickenbackers are where I turn to. Simple; end of story. 8)
Regarding JR's conversions, the only thing I will say is I am not fond of the headstock look with those three tuning keys crammed together like they are, otherwise, everything else is fine that he does. Yes, the string spacing is quite tight, but there are players out there who, obviously, are happy with the basses they play so I am not criticizing this, it is just something that I don't have to, personally deal with. The string spacing on the Martin Keiths work for me (I think the feel of the neck on the fretless would be great for a 5 string Rick bass, but it would require wider pickups).
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As the owner of a real Ric 5-string (4003S/5): No matter what you do (string gauge, pup positioning), the not quite long-scale length of a Ric neck is not made for an authoritative B string. It has real issues keeping up with the other strings and sounds quite different to them too. Plus the lower tension gives it a rubbery feel. What you get is a 4 string with an extra string that sounds deeper, but also very different, no Ric clank there at all.
I'm happy to hear though that my 5er must have gone up in value then. :mrgreen:
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As the owner of a real Ric 5-string (4003S/5): No matter what you do (string gauge, pup positioning), the not quite long-scale length of a Ric neck is not made for an authoritative B string.
If I had an S/5 I'd string it with a high C.
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If I had an S/5 I'd string it with a high C.
Think I would as well.
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Been there, done that. :mrgreen: The result is a weak E string and the C string doesn't do too well either. Those five pole pups are imbalanced. Probably the reason why they gave up on them.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53911.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53881.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC5392.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/uwehornung/_DSC53951.jpg)
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He keeps drilling them (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rickenbacker-2015-4003sw-5-String-Bass-Guitar-Walnut-/331744471822).
Some like his initiative since RIC doesn't offer 5-string basses. Me, I think many people will be really sorry in the future for what used to be such nice basses. This is going to be like all the vintage Strats drilled and routed for Floyd Rose trems and humbuckers, IMHO.
What's your opinion?
(http://www.3dentourage.com/425/4003sw5%20010.jpg)
I have always thought there's going to be a glut (well small glut maybe) of converted 5 string Ricks gathering dust in closets in a few years. Besides he put the extra tuner on the wrong side of the headstock. I can't post what I really feel about them but I can say that my feelings do contain a word that is commonly used to describe a meat cutters job. And yes, he is still drilling them, haha!
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While I'm not a five-string fan, I think Jeff does a fine job and provides a service that few others will. I don't think he butchers the basses at all, and he has a policy of never converting a true relic or collectable. You can see that the only mod to the original chassis is the fifth tuner, placed in between the original D and G tuners. He get's his own bridges made to fit the original tailpiece, or in the case of the 4004 models, he gets aftermarket bridge/tail units that look similar to the originals. He does have to modify the typical Rick tail to accommodate the five-string layout, and he can also do alternate pickup/electronic setups.
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My point still stands that it is a little odd to purchase a new Rick, immediately perform non-reversible mods (regardless of quality of work) and then try and recoup the original cost of the instrument, presumably making a loss on the custom hardware created for the job. And all for an instrument with a design that doesn't lend itself to reproducing a low B especially effectively anyway.
Everybody needs a hobby I suppose. :mrgreen:
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While I'm not a five-string fan, I think Jeff does a fine job and provides a service that few others will. I don't think he butchers the basses at all, and he has a policy of never converting a true relic or collectable. You can see that the only mod to the original chassis is the fifth tuner, placed in between the original D and G tuners. He get's his own bridges made to fit the original tailpiece, or in the case of the 4004 models, he gets aftermarket bridge/tail units that look similar to the originals. He does have to modify the typical Rick tail to accommodate the five-string layout, and he can also do alternate pickup/electronic setups.
Well today's run of the mill Rick could maybe be tomorrow's collectors item. They're not very attractive with the extra tuner on the wrong side of the headstock and I don't like the way he solicits business either, for ex, just now on another forum in a thread about a Rick bass, out of the clear blue sky saying nothing about the thread content he just posted a picture of a new Rick he bought saying that it's going to be a 5 string soon. I mean he's free to do what he wants with a bass he buys but I mean come on. I just saw a nice old Ruby(?) translucent 4001 bass on ebay but it's got a Schaller bridge on it, I'm sure whoever put that on years ago didn't think he was butchering the bass either. I just replied to his post and wrote Spam, haha!
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Jeff is free to modify as he sees fit, of course, but I have to agree with Bob that you never know what will become collectible. Think of all the 70s Fenders that were considered so substandard in their time that they spawned the whole vintage guitar movement, and look at what they go for today.
I'm also reminded of a local luthier who gouged out the bridge area of a number of early Les Pauls to install heavy bridges for more sustain, back when that was the rage. Wound up costing some owners tens of thousands of dollars when LP values went through the roof. You never can tell.
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I'm also reminded of a local luthier who gouged out the bridge area of a number of early Les Pauls to install heavy bridges for more sustain, back when that was the rage. Wound up costing some owners tens of thousands of dollars when LP values went through the roof. You never can tell.
What about the tons of pre-CBS Strats routed for Floyd Rose bridges in the 80's. Thousands were modified, but where are they now? You hardly ever see them. I assume many got new bodies with aged finishes and then sold as all original.
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Or Les Pauls robbed of their PAFs and drilled out for coil tap switches...
One thing we can blame the Internet for is helping create a better league of counterfeiter. It seems that in the '70s, guys like Dick Knight could re-top a '68 Les Paul (or '50s goldtop), refinish it some totally inaccurate burst colour and write a 1959 serial number on the headstock with a Sharpie marker and famous guitarists would pay for the results! Scott Gorham rocked a dodgy conversion burst in the '70s, and Rick Nielsen has sported a couple of dodgy bursts more recently.
Some of those pre-CBS Fenders may now be sporting solid finishes. ???
The Chinese fakers also build Les Pauls with horribly incorrect details, and there are hundreds of threads online outlining where they went wrong. I wonder if any Chinese builder has ever had a look at any of them?!?!
I've watched the 'Chinabacker' builders slowly improve their fake 4003 basses. A lot of them started out with the bridge pickup far closer to the bridge (like on old Hondo copies, oddly enough) but a few have slowly moved the pickup closer to the correct position. I saw recently that a UK-based player had a RM1999 copy made up by a Chinese builder, with lost of trial and error thrown in. He basically trained a Chinese plant to make the right thing. You even get fake Chris Squire basses these days!
(http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1ZTpvJpXXXXaPXXXXq6xXFXXXa/Shelly-new-store-maple-body-4-strings-neck-through-RK-Chris-Squire-signature-4003-electric-bass.jpg)
As for predicting collectability of instruments, J. Mascis, Kurt Cobain et al were using Fender's offsets because they were unloved and cheap to buy back then. Things have changed there! Jack White made previously uncool, unloved catalogue guitars popular... nobody really saw that coming either.
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david lindely had something to say about about making odd guitars cool way back in the day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LdG4DgXObs
not great video but you get the point
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not complete without this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS2-BIo9IH0
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Lindley had a couple (same one?) of good rocking drummers in those bands.