The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: Rhythm N. Bliss on April 24, 2009, 05:10:21 AM
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You're not gonna see this on the evening news unless some angry parents do something about it.
I've been reading a lot of posts on another forum from parents of autistic children who have convinced me that their kids & many others got Autism from arsenic & mercury & other toxins in vaccinations!
I wanna do my part to make people aware of this insanity. Doctors are getting paid off by the pharmaceutical companies to promote these vaccines & there are HUGE profits being made by the madmen who are mixing up these vaccines & shooting up our kids!!!!!!!! Crikey
Here's a link to a good article about Jim Carrey speaking out against the madness very seriously.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-carrey/the-judgment-on-vaccines_b_189777.html
I'll find some more related links & post 'em here soon....
The few honest doctors who are against these crazy vaccines should be getting HERO awards.
The profiteers should be taken out, one way or another. This makes me SO mad!
There was a report recently that Amish kids are FINE because they're not getting these vaccines.
There are almost NO Autistic Amish kids.
Another recent report showed that there is a very high percentage of Autism in kids in Third World countries where they haven't had much medicine at all before & there was very little or No Autism & they're only recently being vaccinated heavily.
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I've heard this theory on the news in recent months. Makes you wonder. Jenny McCarthy just came out with a book about this. It may have been her that I saw talking about this. Jim Carrey seems to have finally found his place with her and her son.
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Vaccines for people and pets have become a pretty hot topic lately. Pick any vaccine and do a little research, you'll be suprised .
Rick
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Good~ I'm glad this is getting some media attention.
Hopefully it'll get a lot more....
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I recently found out that a guy I went to high school with - J. B. Handley - is another outspoken opponent of vaccines that he claims cause autism. I never knew the guy - he was a few years above me - but when I did a google search and watched a video it was like - "that's him!" Very strange. He was also on Larry King a few weeks ago.
Here's the original video I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Hhgaf3Co0
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There was a girl that went to my sons school that was normal till she got a vaccinated, had a horrible reaction and gave her brain damage so now she is permanently mentally retarded.
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The so-called autism-vaccine link is pure fiction, no matter how many high profile people come out and say otherwise. There have been numerous clinical studies, none of them have found any evidence to support a link. Creating hysteria is not a substitute for science.
This is driven by parents who want to blame someone for their childrens' autism and the greedy shysters who prey on them.
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What Dave said. I'm not a doctor, but most of my family is in the medical field, so please consider that we might be better informed than the guy who played Ace Ventura, Pet Detective.
The bottom line is, clinical studies always have a gray area -- remember how eggs were bad for you, then good for you, then bad again? -- but we do know that vaccinations stop the communicable diseases they were intended to stop. Polio. Measles. Smallpox. Diseases that killed thousands until we figured out how to inoculate against them. Parents who refuse to allow their children to be vaccinated because they perceive that vaccination carries a statistically miniscule risk of complication are unintentionally risking the health of millions of others. They have no right to risk my kids' health based on Internet hearsay. Period.
What does it prove that there are "almost no" autistic Amish? Using a nullity to imply anything is a logical fallacy. Like if I were to say that because I've never been hit by a bus, I don't have to look both ways before I cross the street because buses never hurt me and must therefor be harmless. It's ridiculous.
I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry by any means but this fantastical and wholly uninformed mindset scares the bejesus out of me.
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I remember hearing about this (it's not a new subject at all) when my wife was pregnant with our first son five years ago. I studied everything I could find because I wanted to make proper, informed decisions regarding my children. The main complaint seems to have been with a preservative called Thimerosal, which contains mercury. The thing is, most vaccines in the U.S. don't contain Thimerosal anymore. Another thing is that the upward spike in Autism over the last few years has more to do with that fact that the definition of Autism has been broadened, causing many children to be diagnosed as having it that would not have been 20 years ago. It's not that I don't think those kids have a problem, but they wouldn't have called it Autism then. To decry the spike in Autism rates among the population without acknowledging that fact is disingenuous and does a disservice to those parents who are only trying to make the best decisions for their kids.
When I spoke to my kid's pediatrician about it he was respectful of my nervous inquiries and explained the deal with Thimerosal to me. The real answer came when he said he'd vaccinated his own kids and would choose to do so again, Thimerosal or otherwise.
Both my sons have been vaccinated.
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I was vaccinated a lot as a kid (and again as a teenager when we went to live in Africa). We all were in the sixties, in Germany smallpox vaccination was mandatory though it caused ugly scars with almost everyone and raised terminal or near-terminal effects for 2 out of every 100.000 vaccinees (and serious illness for hundreds more) or 0,00002%, still a staggering ratio by today's vaccination standards, people would be rioting in the streets if it were still mandatory. It is no longer mandatory, because smallpox was eradicated off the face of the earth via mass vaccinations. BTW and putting things a little in perspective: The death ratio with smallpox was at least 10%. Your chance of dying from smallpox as opposed to the vaccination against it was 5.000 times as high ...
You already see where I'm coming from, I'm wary of how in the last twenty years or so "vaccination discipline" has deplorably declined in Germany and elsewhere. (My kids were both vaccinated. Is my son autistic? Sure he is, like most male teenagers coming to grips with their life and hormones! ;D ). Not good for your immune system, causing allergies, attention deficiency syndrome (which my son really has, don't they all ...) and now - good grief - even autism. Every couple of years some new hidden ill effect is discovered and dragged through the streets.
I'm no medical doctor (the ones I know are all for vaccinations and worried how vaccination rates go down), I can't rule out that a shot of something can trigger a chain of effects in a child that may lead to autism once in a while. The Amish example though brought out the cynic in me: You can probably be very autistic before someone in an Amish community would raise an eyebrow given how that particular sect has declared cultural and sociological autism to be their way of life. :mrgreen: Oh, and while you're at it, check the hereditary diseases of that fine little bunch of incestuous close-knits too ... :rolleyes:
There is possibly also a lesser number of autistic kids in the slums of Mumbai. And definitely a much greater number of child deaths due to lack of vaccination plus polio cripples. Life is full of choices, except that some people don't even get a choice.
Uwe
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I don't buy it. There is no compelling evidence, and as a group, we are in a LOT more danger from hordes of unvaccinated people running around than we are from the individual effects of vaccinations. There are always fringe groups and well-meaning people who believe that X, Y or Z is terrible. Fluoridation, vaccinations and a number of other things fall into categories where you can find groups of crusaders and conspiracy theorists who rail against them.
Every medical treatment has risk and causes an adverse reaction in someone, somewhere. There is always a failure rate. Yes, if it happens to your family or especially your kids, it's devastating!
There may be almost no Amish kids with autism. Big, hairy deal. There are very FEW Amish kids at all, and there are hundreds of environmental and genetic factors that differentiate that group from the rest of the US population. That argument is completely meaningless!
Tough question: as a society, would we rather have 1 million kids vaccinated and keep some of the terrible childhood diseases suppressed, or would we like to let those diseases rise up and take many more from the million than the few who have adverse reactions to any vaccine?
I think that continuing research into this is entirely worthwhile and commendable. I also think that NOT vaccinating kids is completely irresponsible. We have to do the best we know how to do with the science we have today. We will surely know more 20 years from now, and at that time, we'll do the best we can with what we know then.
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The people on this other forum I'm talking about are friends, people I've met personally face to face.
They both had normal kids til they were about 3 then got innoculated & became autistic!!
They both kick themselves in the ass every day for taking their kids in to be harmed. Think about it.
One of 'em was just given back test results that show arsenic & mercury in his son.
He asked the pediatrician where that stuff could have come from knowing well it's from the vaccine.
The doctor replied "I have no idea." That's a LIE! Check the ingredients in vaccines--ARSENIC? MERCURY?
Is Thimerosol REALLY not in vaccines anymore? If so, how long was it in them?
Are doctors REALLY having their own kids vaccinated? Some aren't...tho they may say they are.
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There was a girl that went to my sons school that was normal till she got a vaccinated, had a horrible reaction and gave her brain damage so now she is permanently mentally retarded.
See? There's another example. This is ALARMING to me.
Seems like it should be to you naysayers too...especially if you're thinking of having more kids.
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What Dave said. I'm not a doctor, but most of my family is in the medical field, so please consider that we might be better informed than the guy who played Ace Ventura, Pet Detective.
I'm no fan of the pharmaceutical industry by any means but this fantastical and wholly uninformed mindset scares the bejesus out of me.
Remember that Jim Carrey is now with Jenny McCarthy, whose son is autistic. She has said how good he is with her son, and he's said how much he's learned from the experience. I think the guy is a dweeb, but I have to give him some credit on this one.
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Nobody -- and I mean nobody -- making these claims has ever been able to back it up with clinical evidence. It's fiction.
They claimed thiomersal was the culprit because it has tiny trace amounts of mercury, and it wasn't in vaccines in the old days. Somewhere along the line it was added as a preservative. As a precaution, back before so many studies had been done, the CDC asked vaccine makers to take it out, which they did -- in 1999. And even though thiomersal is long gone, the autism diagnosis rate is still rising and parents are still blaming something that's long gone.
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Well spoken, Dave. As a parent, I am well aware that "issues" can arise seemingly out of the blue. Why did my older son develop an anxiety disorder at age 11? Who knows... Alot of it is genetics, and for some this is a bitter pill to swallow. Some things just happen, and in the absence of definitive proof (as in the cigarettes-lung cancer connection), that's how we must leave it, and move on to dealing with the problem.
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So some of you will have more kids & get them vaccinated I suppose.
I sure hope you're right that it's safe, but there IS evidence that it ain't.
There is an alarming rise of Autism & my friends whose kids are damaged are certain it's due to this poison in vaccines. Yes, POISON! Arsenic is used by murderers to KILL people.
Why is that in vaccines for kids? Is that a preservative too, Dave Dub?
Some reports say one in 100something become Autistic.
Other reports claim that it is much more lately--1 in 60 or even 1 in 30. :o
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There's no arsenic in vaccines, even though some of the more hysterical websites claim there is.
According to the CDC the rate of autism diagnosis is 6 in 1000, and that is a big increase in the last 25 years, but they're not sure that the actual incidence is increasing. Remember, the definition keeps getting broader.
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Remember, the definition keeps getting broader.
This is why there are more cases of Autism than there were 20 years ago. I'm sorry for any parent that has to go through a serious health issue with their child, but looking/wishing/hoping for a boogie-man to blame it on is unhealthy and does a disservice to everyone involved (except those who wish to leach off the scare for personal gain). It also induces more unreasonable guilt than anyone should bear.
In a day and age when diseases that were eradicated 30 plus years ago are not only being seen again but coming back stronger than ever, this is not the time to trust that your kid will be OK because everyone else's kid got vaccinated. If nothing else, I'd pay more and have my doctor spread out the vaccinations over a longer period (less boogie-man preservatives per shot/dose). I weighed the 'possible' risks against the known risks and the choice was damn easy. I don't worry about my kids getting those diseases now and I rest very easily with that choice.
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One of 'em was just given back test results that show arsenic & mercury in his son.
Apple seeds contain trace amounts of arsenic. Thermometers? Mercury. Your cell phone? Don't ask. Because your friend's son's bloodwork showed traces of arsenic and mercury doesn't mean that the shot put them there.
And if statistics show one in 30 kids are autistic, where are those kids? Even if one in 100 Americans is autistic, that's 3,000,000 autistics running around. Sorry, but I smell bullshit.
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Ok~ The one in 30 figure was just my friend's guess as he sat in the lunchroom at his son's school in Sacramento. :o
The number of "autistics running around" is growing in proportion to the number of vaccines our kids are given.
Even if it's 1 in 100something (160 is it?) now as many doctors & researchers say that's a LOT more than 1 in 10,000 like it was before the 70s & all these heavy vaccines.
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Sorry, don't buy it. Like George I was concerned and did some research and we didn't hesitate with our daughter - my "kid" is now 19 and at 12 she too developed an anxiety disorder. I could have blamed the asthma meds she had taken for ten years. Instead we looked inward and discovered that both mine and my wife's families had several members with varying degrees of the same thing - sorry, heredity. She beat it and is better person for it.
As for not innoculating people - sure go ahead, skip them and be just like the third world. Then head north to the land of opportunity spread diseases that we thought were "extinct" TB anybody? >:(
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Ok, maybe I'll see that my kid gets a vaccine for TB & polio.
I'd rather have him get the measles than Autism tho.
Anyway...it's something to think about, & I find it commendable that many of you have done some research.
I'm sure gonna continue researching & I'll post results here. Maybe some of you will do the same.
Scientific links are gooood
It sure would SUCK to have an Autistic kid. My heart goes out to my friends who do.
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Hey Terr weren't your twins vaccinated? They're OK, right? I can't tell you how many shots I got as kid and other than being homley and slightly anti social I'm OK ;)
I work with a guy whose son is autictic - most folks would never know it. He is different but not even close to what most people think is autism. His parents were home schooling him but he kept blasting though all of the course work so they put back into public school so that he could get some social interaction and extra work. They got a call from his teacher asking them to have him stop conversing in French in class! They're not French but got him a language course and he taught himself. He's austic but a genius as well.
I'm all in favor being cautious and making informed decisions but to me the gains far outweigh risks on this.
Jenny McCarthy has really cleaned up act and I think for the better but she is no medical expert under any circumstance.
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my "kid" is now 19 and at 12 she too developed an anxiety disorder. I could have blamed the asthma meds she had taken for ten years. Instead we looked inward and discovered that both mine and my wife's families had several members with varying degrees of the same thing - sorry, heredity.
Bingo. Same deal here. A long line of worriers on both sides. BTW, the "tween" years are when these things tend to pop up.
Here's an interesting anxiety related story. My wife was getting pains in her chest awhile back so we went to the doc. He couldn't find anything out of whack except a minor sound when he listened to her heart which he said could be a mitral valve prolapse - nothing serious, but he wanted us to have a cardiologist take a look. The cardiologist did an echo and confirmed the diagnosis. In conversing about it, he imparted to us that in 25 years he had not seen a single MVP patient who didn't have anxiety issues. So there you have (apparently) a small, generally harmless physical defect that runs hand in hand with an accompanying emotional problem. (The pains she was having were stress-related, but not really connected with the MVP in any way.)
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Hey Terr weren't your twins vaccinated? They're OK, right? I can't tell you how many shots I got as kid and other than being homley and slightly anti social I'm OK ;)
My daughters seem to be ok. Sometimes I wonder. haha
Boys seem to be more susceptible. I'd love to have a son.
Need to find the right mum for him for starters. heh May never happen.
If it does, it will be quite an adventure...
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With respect - while I regret and sympathize the case of the kids who became autistic, the case doesn't prove the assertion. There are many, many variables about the family, the diet, the environment, the genetics, prior illnesses and other factors that we don't know. And how bad is any "case"? Mild? Severe? Who classifies it? Who labels it as autism vs. something else? Who can speak for the judgment of doctor A vs. doctor B, if A says it's autism and B disagrees?
Stating "The number of 'autistics running around' is growing in proportion to the number of vaccines our kids are given." is not meaningful. What proportion? It's certainly not 1:1!! It's certainly not 1:100. Might it be 1:100,000? And what other factors cause autism? They must be included in that proportion or ratio, and they confound the estimation. Just because numbers of A (an observable result) increase in some proportion or ratio to numbers of B (a treatment) does not prove causation, or even make a convincing case for it. There are too many other factors that can cause changes in A.
If this sounds like the argument from graduate statistics, you're right. That's because anecdotes don't prove anything, but science and statistics can be used to reduce uncertainty to near (not actual) zero.
Are there things we don't know about medicine? Absolutely.
Are there reactions to a wide variety of inoculations that we don't fully understand yet? I'm confident that's true.
Is this worthy of research? Certainly!
Does it change the fact that I'm happy my kids have been vaccinated for everything that current medical wisdom suggests? NO! And you'll find that doctors are the first ones to get their kids inoculated, because they know the risk/benefit ratio is incredibly weighted in favor of having the inoculations done.
By the same logic used here, if you ever knew someone involved in a plane wreck, you'd never set foot on an airplane...because it happened to someone you know: an anecdotally-based decision. I know that every time that I set foot on a plane or turn the key in my car's ignition, there is a risk/benefit equation at work. I could be dead in minutes, or I could reach my destination. But that doesn't stop me from boarding the plane or turning the key.
I know the OP is genuinely concerned about this, and I respect that. I'm also interested in continued study of all the effects of vaccines, because long-term studies in humans take at least decades. But I have never found any basis for the claims in this case.
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I recently found out that a guy I went to high school with - J. B. Handley - is another outspoken opponent of vaccines that he claims cause autism. I never knew the guy - he was a few years above me - but when I did a google search and watched a video it was like - "that's him!" Very strange. He was also on Larry King a few weeks ago.
Here's the original video I found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Hhgaf3Co0
Handley was just on tv again. One of my friends with an autistic kid saw it & posted this on another site:
Did anybody happen to catch that show "The Doctors" on Wednesday? We dvr'd it and watched it last night. I found this one to be very interesting. It kind of turned into a big blowup. One of the founders of Generation Rescue was sitting in the audience. Generation Rescue is the most on-point organization I've seen in terms of their approach to autism. For example, they recently did a survey that found that immunized boys had a 155% greater chance of a neurological illness than boys that weren't immunized. (Oops) These folks are ACTUALLY READING the studies that doctors keep quoting (and the robot, talking heads in the media keep mentioning). Generation Rescue is suggesting EXACTLY the conclusion I've come to - that parents should follow the pre-1990 immunization schedule because it will protect your child without overdosing them.
This is why there were fireworks. The host, Dr. Stork let Handley say something then blew up like a little bitch. Stork said the common "Immunizations have been studied like crazy...blah...blah...no correlation...blah." Handly fired back with the fact that only ONE of the immunizations has actually been stuided and only TWO of the subtances in all immunizations have been. Well, Dr. Stork couldn't take the heat and started yelling about Handley's tone of voice. It was amazing. Here was a guy pointing out the great fallacy in this mystery (trying to help solve it) and all the doc could do was yell back about having hurt feelings. For me, it was amazing to watch. The doc turned it into a show about hurt feelings. If I were Handly I just would have said, "This is important, and you are incorrect. That's why I'm raising my voice." But, no. About 2/3 through the show Handley wasn't in the audience anymore - he just vanished during a commercial break. I bet he said what I was thinking but it didn't make the final cut.
Evidently your old schoolmate got thrown out, hieronymous.
I think it's commendable that J.B. is Rockin' The Boat. He has courage.
I'm gonna keep researching this & hope to see more of J.B. & other opponents of over vaccinating questioning the status quo who are profiting off what seem to be uneccesary & harmful innoculations.
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Terry, the posted paragraphs in bold are just flat out lies. Repeating the same lies may help them recruit more dupes but it won't turn lies into the truth.
And the whole thing is being pushed behind the scenes by the plaintiffs bar.
Long article but worth the read: Why Does the Vaccine/Autism Controversy Live On? (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jun/06-why-does-vaccine-autism-controversy-live-on/)
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That's an excellent article, well-researched and reasonably neutral in its approach and presentation.
The thing that individual families find hard to accept (and I would also if I were in an affected family) is that the way you get at an issue like this is through large epidemiological studies. Those studies do not bear out the assertion.
As for the thimerosal issue, the article points out on page 3 that thimerosal is no longer present in any recommended childhood vaccines save the inactivated influenza vaccine—and hasn’t been, beyond trace amounts, since 2001—but rates of autism are not declining. That could NOT be the case if thimerosal was actually the causative gent.
I will concede that it's possible that there is some group which is genetically / developmentally pre-disposed toward reactions to vaccines. However, that's not a reason not to vaccinate. As the article points out on page 2, the odds still strongly favor vaccination:
"The CDC estimates that thanks to vaccines, we have reduced morbidity by 99 percent or more for smallpox, diphtheria, measles, polio, and rubella. Averaged over the course of the 20th century, these five diseases killed nearly 650,000 people annually. They now kill fewer than 100. That is not to say vaccines are perfectly safe; in rare cases they can cause serious, well-known adverse side effects. But what researchers consider unequivocally unsafe is to avoid them. As scientists at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health recently found while investigating whooping cough outbreaks in and around Michigan, “geographic pockets of vaccine exemptors pose a risk to the whole community.'”
In fact, those who don't vaccinate children pose a public health risk to people around them. It's that kind of behavior that allows some diseases to linger rather than being suppressed or wiped out. note this comment from page 3:
"Even before the recent spike in attention to thimerosal, members of the public were alarmingly skeptical of vaccines. In a 1999 survey, 25 percent felt their children’s immune systems could be harmed by too many vaccinations, and 23 percent shared the sentiment that children receive more vaccinations than are healthy. There is every reason to think that those numbers—gathered before the vaccine-autism controversy reached anything like its current intensity—have risen since."
For some reason, people act stupid. They think that because no kid in the neighborhood has whopping cough, they don't need to vaccinate. Not so - that condition is caused because the LAST generation of kids were all vaccinated. Those parents have the responsibility both to their kids and to the NEXT generation to get all their vaccinations.
There is a huge number of environmental factors which might contribute to an increase in autism - everything from formaldehyde in paneling and carpet - to smog - to children traveling with parents and being exposed to substances they've never before encountered. As I've said before, more research is needed - but the research already done says that looking at vaccines is looking in the wrong direction. It's time to look at other factors.
I realize that if it happens in your family, the incidence to you is 100%. But that's also true for teen suicide, drunk driving, cancer and lots of other bad stuff. The individual case neither proves nor supports the general assertion.
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Yes, that article makes many good points. I just skimmed it, I'll study it in depth later & get back to you here. It looks like I can quote a few parts of it to support the idea of minimizing vaccines for our kids.
It's evidently not a black & white issue. It's not a matter of vaccinating or not vaccinating, is it?
Maybe the best understanding is to go with the ol' Happy Medium path & get our kids innoculated by some vaccines but not others.
Personally I'm not sure which may be safe & which may not be.
I've always liked the Question Authority attitude & when condescending doctors & so called experts, teachers, politicians or whoever tell us we should just shut up & not ask questions & just behave & do what we're told that's when my warning lights go on!!!
I'm gonna keep questioning this myself...