The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Fender Basses => Topic started by: nofi on March 28, 2009, 07:41:21 AM
-
i have heard that a product ASSEMBLED in the usa can be labled MADE in the usa, even if parts were manufactured elsewhere. i heard this theory as it may apply to fenders. any validity to this story. ???
-
I've always assumed that if a component is made of either metal or plastic (or any combination of the two) that it was made in China. This applies to everything, not just musical instruments.
-
i have heard that a product ASSEMBLED in the usa can be labled MADE in the usa, even if parts were manufactured elsewhere. i heard this theory as it may apply to fenders. any validity to this story. ???
It works for cars and most other products I'm familiar with. For me, it's not normally a criterion in the decision to buy or not to buy.
-
Most speaker brands have factories in the east, so if you buy an American made Fender or Mesa or whatever it's likely you get Chinese (or so) speakers.
I think most Fender parts are made in the US, but it wouldn't surprise me if control knobs and so are made in China. I would'nt care.
-
Not true. Under the FTC standard, to be called "Made in USA" the product has to be "all or virtually all" made in the US. That means the actual manufacturing of the product has to be done in the US, including finishing.
It's possible for some imported components to be used in a product that's actually manufactured here. But if it's just an assembly of imported components, then it can only be called "Assembled in USA of imported parts."
Cars and clothing operate under slightly different rules. Carmakers don't make unqualified "Made in USA" claims anyway. They do have to list specific US content.
-
And who cares... I know the Lakland Skyline and the Epi Lennon Casino are labled 'Assembled in the USA'.
My reissue Burns is produced in China, but manufactured in the UK. Body and neck are made in China and they built 'm in the UK with British parts. No problem, cos in that way this limited edition bass costs as much as an American Standard Fender, while a CS Burns the same price has as a CS Fender.
-
Some people do care. Being able to call a product Made in USA matters for certain products, otherwise manufacturers wouldn't bother to make the claim.
-
You are right Dave. I think it's important the body is American, the finish too, pick ups, electronics. But like those three black Jazz controls.... Who would care about the origin of them?
-
I think a lot of how much ppl care where its made comes down to the old Collectors vs Players thing.
Quality is quality regardless of where its made or what the price tag says.
-
Quality is quality, but you tend to pay a bit (at one time a lot ) more for a US made instrument vs an import from a country with a low standard of living. So, while the quality of Ibanez instruments - for one example - in the late 70s and early 80s was equal or superior to the major US instruments they were inspired by (not the mid 70s copies to be clear) the reality was the US guitar or bass was priced substantially higher due to domestic labor costs involved at all levels. Nowadays, that gap has closed with Japanese made instruments, and both US and Japanese made instruments are more than stuff made in Korea or China. You can include CAD/CAM in the mix for cutting costs of automation, but you can still ship a freight container of basses to the US from China for so little vs domestic manufacture, that the steel freight containers can be considered scrap upon shipping. You can't even set up the machinery here for what it costs for finished products.
Also, to the original point, Fender began using Asian parts and partial assembly in the early 80s (US labeled Bullets and Japan labeled Bullets shared components and assembly), and they also have and continued to use US electronics and hardware in Asian labeled product. I am guessing they source many hardware parts outside the US as well, but it is just as muddied as car assembly.
-
The original Japanese imports, like most other Japanese products at the time, were built to lower standards. Cheaper woods, cheaper hardware, cheaper electronics. They weren't even intended to be high quality, just cheaper alternatives. That situation still exists today in other parts of Asia. The Chinese and Indonesians are certainly capable of building first class instruments, just as they have proven they can do with electronic devices. But the fact is that most of the musical instruments from these places are still built to be inexpensive copies with lower quality materials and components.
-
you tend to pay a bit (at one time a lot ) more for a US made instrument vs an import from a country with a low standard of living.
I guess the thing to keep in mind here is that to people like me and our European brethren, an MIA bass is also an import. So we are paying higher prices again than you chaps in the US due to shipping and import duties etc.
As far as Fenders go I disagree with you Dave in regards to the build and component quality of the 80's Japanese instruments vs the same time period USA built ones. I have my 74 Jazz MIA and I have owned an 84 P bass MIA. But I have an 82 JV Squier which is as good if not better in some ways than either of the other 2 basses. I will concede that the body is Sen Ash but IMHO I'm not totally convinced that Sen isn't superior to Swamp Ash tonally anyway . It is certainly has a more consistent grain. But I guess wood preferences are just that.
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/82%20JV%20Squier%20Jazz/82-squier-jazz-f2-body.jpg)
-
As Dave said, American Made usually means Superior Quality,generally!
There may be a few MIM & MIJ axes that sound just as good as most American Made but those are rare exceptions...& then too you've got to dig that the Best of the American Made axes are even more rare & better than the best of the foreign market...with very, very few exceptions.
My limited experience has been that non US Fenders ain't as good, & neither are copies by other brands.
I do have some damn good Gibson copies tho--a Greco SG & Tokai Tbird.
Got 'em cuz lefty Gibsons are SO damn rare & expensive.
I certainly appreciate why Americans want to BUY AMERICAN.
It's a good idea for us to do that but sometimes you just can't pass up a good cheapo bargain, huh?
When I saw Gary Hoey he commented between songs that he bought an American flag & then saw that it was made in China & that inspired his album titled American Made.
Great album btw Highly recommended! Nice clean cut & bright American boy. :D
-
the can of worms is officially open. ;)
-
@ Nofi You started this! :mrgreen:
Thats not my experience RnB. Which brings me back to what I've mentioned a few times before in other threads that I can only assume (My Conspiricy theory! ;) ) that the "New" (at least new since 1980) basses that I've seen and played from American companies that get shipped to Australia are the leftovers from what those companies have selected to be sold in the US and I guess possibly Europe first.
The Made in Japan Fenders are generally (IMHO) mostly better instruments than the US production built ones. (Custom shop instruments definitely excepted). Specifically the attention paid to fit and finish is superior.
I'm not saying this to get into an argument or get a rise from ppl. Its just my experience over the last 30 years which has included working in 3 different music stores. And having 2 friends who are Fender accredited repairers.
-
I just got some genuine Fender parts for a Precision. The knobs are made in USA, so are the pickups, but the CTS pots are made in Taiwan.
-
CTS haven't been made in the US for quite a while.
-
Just bought a pair of CTS pots for the Pearl Export. Taiwan, China, Korea, Japan....... as Con the fuitirer says "Daaaas'n Mattaaah Mate" Quality is quality.
-
American Made usually means Superior Quality,generally!
Terr you're priceless!
:D
-
My Whirlpool dishwasher is made in the USA, but the motor/pump is made in China. Guess which component took a dump after less than three years... >:(
-
Maybe I've succumbed to the concept of global economy. I just figure that a good sounding bass is worth having at the right price, regardless of where it was made.
-
Maybe I've succumbed to the concept of global economy. I just figure that a good sounding bass is worth having at the right price, regardless of where it was made.
Strangely, I agree - with regard to musical instruments. They are tools after all, and not everyone can afford a full set of "Snap-On" wrenches/screwdrivers. If it meets your requirements in terms of aesthetics, playability and sound, the country of origin shouldn't matter.
Cars, however, are another matter entirely - that's way too much of a religion for me to buy anything but American iron. ;D
-
Cars, however, are another matter entirely - that's way too much of a religion for me to buy anything but American iron. ;D
Well, thank goodness for Fiat then. ;D
The new Chrysler: let's see, with Fiat's legendary reliability, 55% ownership by the UAW, questionable financing and an army of pissed-off soon-to-be-ex-dealerships, what could possibly go wrong? ??? ;D
-
Agreed! The UAW have said that they would divest themselves of the stock ASAP. So it could be an American company again if averyone here invested a couple of hundred dollars to buy up the stock. If the UAW dumps the stock all at once it should be about $0.05 per share! ;D
It's a shame really, I've been though about 20 company cars in the last 25 years and the Chryslers have always been the best - including my current 07 Caravan.
-
The only time I have been in the USofA we left with 2 cases and came back with 5 (3 made in China) - seriously raided Walmart - Wranglers (made in Honduras) a Kentucky Wildcats official shirt (made in Pakistan), bought a pair of Levis (made in Mexico), brought home an American flag (yep Chinese too) need I go on... ok, I will... pre KY we took in Disney in FL - nothing but nothing made in USA, except a reasonable percantage of the staff, and the idea... we took home a beautiful BIG bauble (an Xmas shop 365 days!) for the tree classically shaped 3 balls, Mickey style, with a USA flag motif (made in China) - I did manage to find 3 tee's made in USA, at Canaveral (my treat - "Failure is not an option", "The Eagle has landed" and an exceptionally garish shuttle shirt that I may wear for our next confirmed gig - July 4th)...
I am not knocking America, you are much like the rest of us... I try not to think about the sweat-shops that produced the £3 jeans I wear a lot of the time for rough work, as they last just as long as quality wear... there is virtually no such thing as Made In GB...
Lowend - most of your Whirlpool (electrically) was almost certainly made in the far-east (worked in the commercial end of that trade for 21 years)... most PCB work is from the far-east, most solenoids, many motors/generators...
Boeing wings for 747's are made in Korea and specially coverted (in China) 747's fly them over to Seattle - they have over 10,000 suppliers in over 60 countires - is that made in America...? Airbus is no different - Bae make the wings and the aircraft are assembled in France...
In many quality instruments - where is the wood grown...?
The day of "Made in X" are over... the future is international... the international language is English... tyerrorism is the global threat we all have to face... that is what I fear most...
-
It is interesting to read threads like this when you come from a place that is farther East than the "Far East".
I know Americans are famous for holidaying in Mexico. Beaches, cheap costs etc.
The Poms seem to do the same with Spain (Mallorca)
For Australians the equivalent is to go to the largest Muslim country in the world. Indonesia.
With Malaysia, Thailand, Phillipines, Laos and Vietnam just north of Indonesia and all cheap by our standards we tend to travel a lot to these countries for our holidays.
Also a lot of the South East Asian people live in Australia.
We have never really had the manufacturing base that the UK once had or that the US is trying hold on to.
Japan for more than 20 years has been our largest trading partner followed by the soon to be 1st China.
When you grow up in a country with this as normal, your perspective is quite different to those of someone in the US or the UK.
I struggle sometimes with what the attachment to certain brands and country of manufacture is all about.
Levi's used to be manufactured about 2 Kms from the Holden car plant in Elizabeth. Now they come from the Phillipines or Fiji. I knew a few people who worked in the Levi factory and while they were nice people they had the attitude that they were never paid enough and this showed in their work. Kinda like 80's Fenders I would suggest. Gimmee the Japanese one thanks ;)
-
There's a lot of Oz vets that would want to take you to task over that one. Bret... :o :o :o
"What do you mean; you started it, and you ate my uncle..." ;)
-
Ya lost me on that one Ken sorry.
-
Japan has been setting up manufacturing for years offshore - cheaper labor cost. It's cheaper to build Toyotas and Hondas in America now than in Japan. VW has been building in Mexico for years on end.
-
Ya lost me on that one Ken sorry.
I think it has something to do with eating kangaroo.
-
Well, thank goodness for Fiat then. ;D
The new Chrysler: let's see, with Fiat's legendary reliability, 55% ownership by the UAW, questionable financing and an army of pissed-off soon-to-be-ex-dealerships, what could possibly go wrong? ??? ;D
I'm by no means happy about any of this, especially the way the UAW has benefited from it. I have no problem with workers owning the company, but unions...? I read last week that they have agreed not to strike until 2015. I almost laughed at the headline!
The Fiat aspect doesn't bother me as much. I can't see it being any worse than the cornholing that Chrysler took from Daimler with that "merger of equals".
Actually, it's kind of refreshing to see the dealers getting hosed for a change. Most of the ones getting the boot probably deserve it - at least based on the list from my area. Even as a person who buys used, er, preowned vehicles, being at the dealership is usually a degrading experience at best.
-
I was never a "domestic only" car buyer. I buy what I like and country of manufacture is simply immaterial to me - and to most of the car buying public, I think.
My dad had a 1959 Mercedes sedan when I was in high school. I still have the 1958 Fiat 1200 roadster that was my high school graduation gift (it was never my regular driver). I bought a '66 GTO, when it was wrecked (by the other driver) I got an Olds Cutlass, sold that for a '71 240Z, then a '77 Chevy Monza Spyder with a 305 V-8, then a '76 280Z, then an Audi and an '82 280ZX.
My wife and I have driven Audi, BMW and Datsun (not Nissan) for years. We have a '99 Chevy Blazer - one daughter has a '91 Camaro convertible, the other has a '99 Jeep.
I saw my first new Camaro on the way home from dinner tonight. I need to take a longer look, but I wasn't impressed. My memory from a 3-second view is that hood was 6 inches too high and the grille looked like a cartoon. I'll give it a longer look soon.
If the domestic auto makers want to compete, they have to do better. Mechanically, their cars are as good as the imports but their styling and marketing stinks. I'd LOVE to see Chrysler and Fiat connected - it will be better for both, and Fiat makes cars that the US needs because the domestic makers don't have the clangers to market economical cars with style.
-
I'm what I'll call a practical purist. I'm strictly Chrysler-propelled, but won't drive any of the rebadged/rebodied stuff (like the Crossfire, which was a Benz SLK in a Chrysler skin) or anything that has something other than a Chrysler mill (Mitsu 2.6L K-Bodies, early V6 minivans, anything with the "World" engine). I am, however open to some foreign-based component design - the tranny and rear in my '06 Charger are both Mercedes designs, and are markedly better than the Chrysler equivalents at this point in time. Now if they were still building the TorqueFlite, I'd be singing a different tune...
-
Yay, Torqueflite... :)
I'll stick with my USA built '91.5 Dodge W250 4x4 with the Cummins Turbodiesel. I think Chrysler we doing okay until DB got hold of them and came out with 5000 hideous Jeep models, the super boring minivans, and some of those mid-sized Chrysler sedans.
-
A little seasoning in the Mopar stew is that the dealers who have gotten the axe are now fire-sale bound on their Chryslers. They now own them - no returns, shifts or credit. So the whole stock will be moved as fast as possible. Loss is gurarnteed, so they want the dollars in the bank at 2009 levels as opposed to paying off loans in double digit inflation dollars in the coming years. Another fine development of the best and the brightest running the show from Washington is they have mandated that Chrysler cut its marketing budget to the quick. Apparently they feel it really isn't worth the company's while to try to market or maintain any sense of market presense during this process. But they are smart and this is "change."
Truth be told, the minivan they cooked up last year was a world beater. They were probably resting on their laurels for a couple of years too long, and lost a lot of share to Toyota. But too little, too late.