The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: eb2 on December 14, 2011, 04:04:50 PM
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OK, sleuths. Any idea of what this is? Not an old Gibson for sure. Is this the new SG thing?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1969-EB-0-EB-2-EB-3-Pickup-Original-Chrome-Cover-/370568242788?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item564796a664
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It sure looks like the same construction as the current SG Bass, but it's odd that the coils are visible. Where are the tops of the bobbins?
Definitely not a mudbucker. Certainly not original equipment on a late 60s EB-0.
Another view of the current pickup, from another thread:
(http://music-electronics-forum.com/attachments/15585d1317589638-sg_basspu.jpg)
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Yup, it's the new "tbplus-whom-clothes-are-covered-in-mud" thingie.
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Clear plastic bobbins?
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Clear plastic bobbins?
Could be. I can see what might be an outline outside the coil edges.
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I can only recall a couple of the SG pups coming up on ebay, and I was thinking that was what this one was. What do these things go for? I think two hundo is a bit much, but it seems that legit mudbuckers are almost always north of a hundred these days.
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I can't recall seeing even one of these on eBay before. Does seem high. Maybe someone needs it enough to pay the price, more than I would pay though.
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It sure looks like the same construction as the current SG Bass, but it's odd that the coils are visible. Where are the tops of the bobbins?
Definitely not a mudbucker. Certainly not original equipment on a late 60s EB-0.
Another view of the current pickup, from another thread:
(http://music-electronics-forum.com/attachments/15585d1317589638-sg_basspu.jpg)
Hey that's my hand! lol Yes, this is the current SG bass pickup.
This is a REALLY stupid design. The pole pieces are fake.
Here's all the things wrong with it; they used mini guitar humbucker bobbins... OK not too bad I guess. They have steel blades in them that are shaped like an inverted T. In my opinion the blades are in upside-down, because this way they don't extend past the top of the pickup, and are too far from the strings, because of the aluminum fake pole piece screw holder. Ad that brings up to that thing. They used a big chunk of aluminum, probably thinking since it's not magnetic, it's OK. But adding a conductor over the coils, especially aluminum, will cause eddy currents to form and suck the life out of the tone of the pickup.
Here's some more photos:
Here's the top without the aluminum thing.
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/custom_pickups/IMG_2488.jpg)
You can see the ceramic magnets on the bottom of the blades here. You can also see the T part and hot far under the coils it goes.
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/custom_pickups/IMG_2489.jpg)
I got this to rebuild for a customer, and to also make a new bridge pickup.
So I rewound the coils and machined a steel keeper bar for the pole pieces and made a small sidewinder using neodymium magnets. So it's like a junior mudbucker, but without the mud. The customer wanted a bright clear tone.
The problem with the original was it wasn't a mudbucker, and wasn't all that clear sounding.
I didn't get the cover, but here's a vintage mudbucker cover I used to check fit. It fit the SG pickup, so I know the spacing is the same.
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/custom_pickups/IMG_2690.jpg)
The new neo bridge pickup.
(http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/custom_pickups/IMG_2699.jpg)
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Thanks for the detailed information.
That is a pretty cool project David!
But so far haven't read any complaints about the new mockbucker on the SG basses. From what I've read it sounds more focussed than the old mudbucker.
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But so far haven't read any complaints about the new mockbucker on the SG basses. From what I've read it sounds more focussed than the old mudbucker.
I've now done close to 100 gigs on my SG and I think the neck pup is fantastic. Much more tonal range than the old mudbuckers.
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Certainly the old mudbucker is a one trick pony. But I have also heard the new ones are muddy sounding. I just think they could have done something better. My sidewinder will sound like a single coil.
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:o I don't think a single coil sound is what people are looking for when they buy an SG / EB ;)
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:o I don't think a single coil sound is what people are looking for when they buy an SG / EB ;)
But the original is a sidewinder, which is a hum canceling single coil. ;) The customer wanted a very bright pickup.
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Thanks for the exploded view, David. Explains a lot about the construction, at least.
I don't understand what you mean about the original sidewinders. The original EB/EB-1 brown cover pickup was a sidewinder and was a single coil. Of course it sounded nothing like what we usually think of when someone says single coil sound. But I don't think it wasn't hum cancelling.
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My first thought when Dave said the aluminum element would create a muddied sound was - why not replace it with steel? Kinda like one big blade.....
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Thanks for the exploded view, David. Explains a lot about the construction, at least.
I don't understand what you mean about the original sidewinders. The original EB/EB-1 brown cover pickup was a sidewinder and was a single coil. Of course it sounded nothing like what we usually think of when someone says single coil sound. But I don't think it wasn't hum cancelling.
I mean the later chrome cover pickup. That was a humbucker, and still a side winder:
(http://www.flyguitars.com/graphics/part25b.jpg)
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My first thought when Dave said the aluminum element would create a muddied sound was - why not replace it with steel? Kinda like one big blade.....
You can't put steel between the two blades because it will short out the magnetic circuit. If you take a humbucker and place a piece of steel between the two sets of poles, you wont get any sound.
The original mudbucker had a single row of poles between the two sideways mounted coils. What Gibson could have done is what I did, and utilized the fake pole pieces. What they ended up making is more like a DiMarzio Model One, but with a row of phony poles.
Curtis Novak did a replacement like this:
(http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/images/EB-AA-2.jpg)
This is better than the Gibson SG pickup because it doesn't have the aluminum block and the real poles are closer to the top of the cover.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm a fan of the real mudbuckers, for what they do. I have one in one of my '73 Ricks. :)
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Thanks for clueing me in on that. I figured there was something I didn't know!
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(http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/images/EB-AA-2.jpg)
Why are the real polepieces not aligned with the fake screws in the middle?
If the string spacing is matched to those fake screws you'd miss out a big part on the E and G string.
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Why are the real polepieces not aligned with the fake screws in the middle?
If the string spacing is matched to those fake screws you'd miss out a big part on the E and G string.
That's a good question!
If you look at the photo here:
http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-AA.shtml
The strings are falling over the fake poles. ???
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Why are the real polepieces not aligned with the fake screws in the middle?
If the string spacing is matched to those fake screws you'd miss out a big part on the E and G string.
It works, Rob. I have it on my Epi Newport where a preowner slipped just one SD telecaster pup in slanted fashion underneath the chrome cover, no alignment with the cover screw holes, but all strings sound for whatever reason even.
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My ri Rivoli had a Jazz pickup underneath the chrome cover, polepieces weren't aligned and it souned like a Rivoli:)
And the sidewinders of my '76 T-Bird do sound singlecoil-ish.
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Dammit! The description of the SG Bass pickup makes it sound like it would be perfect for me. Sidewinders are typically way too hot to usefully mix them with other pickups, but I love that tone. I sometimes just wish it could be mixed in with some more defintion from another pickup, but not all the time. I don't like Model One's because they're too nasal and not defined where I want them to be. Anyone know where I might get a cheap SG bass pickup? ;D
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You can buy that one on ebay for less than the Novak. ;D
I would imagine under a Gibson lid, the fake poles and real tele-bassish slugs all touch the lid. That would spread the magnetic pull all across the string area to some degree, no? A blade would maybe be more effective, but that - and the current Gibson thing - would work for picking up the strings.
So, maybe the Artec Asian things out there these days are more accurate copies, but these give you a more versatile option that doesn't chop up your Gibson, or give the visual game away like the DiMarzio Model One. I like that. My problem with the Novak is that both the concept - make it sound unlike a Gibson - and the sound clips don't really do that much for me, or sound that unlike a DiMarzio which won't set you back that much money. And two points off for claiming on the website the original mudbucker isn't humbucking. If they were referring to a 53-58 mudbucker, cool, but that isn't what they were replacing.
My ears heard the sack-less Epi mudbucker as sounding Gibson-y. I don't dislike the DiMarzio Model one. The Model G is a Model One with the coils tighter together, and no epoxy blob. It can fit in and sounds a bit different. Shadow made a bass humbucker 20 years ago that was built like a regular guitar humbucker, but bigger physically. That sounded nice too. I haven't seen one in a few years.
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Dammit! The description of the SG Bass pickup makes it sound like it would be perfect for me. Sidewinders are typically way too hot to usefully mix them with other pickups, but I love that tone. I sometimes just wish it could be mixed in with some more defintion from another pickup, but not all the time. I don't like Model One's because they're too nasal and not defined where I want them to be. Anyone know where I might get a cheap SG bass pickup? ;D
You can rewind the mudbuckers to be cleaner. I rewound mine down to about 12k. It mixed real well with the Hi-A pickup I had at the bridge on my Rick. It kept a lot of the same charater too, but had more highs and wasn't overpowering.
That's basically what I did with this rebuild. I made sidewinder that reads 8k and it will mix well with the new bridge pickup.
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My ears heard the sack-less Epi mudbucker as sounding Gibson-y. I don't dislike the DiMarzio Model one. The Model G is a Model One with the coils tighter together, and no epoxy blob. It can fit in and sounds a bit different. Shadow made a bass humbucker 20 years ago that was built like a regular guitar humbucker, but bigger physically. That sounded nice too. I haven't seen one in a few years.
The Model G is an X2N with 8 poles instead of blades. The Model One reads 11 K, whole the Model G is about 15k.
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"actually a humbucker unlike the original Mudbucker."
I understand what he's saying, it's just that the original 53 pickup shouldn't really be referred to as a "mudbucker" since it's not a bucker.
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"actually a humbucker unlike the original Mudbucker."
I understand what he's saying, it's just that the original 53 pickup shouldn't really be referred to as a "mudbucker" since it's not a bucker.
I figured he was referring to the pickup he was replacing, which is indeed a humbucker. I assumed he didn't realize it was.
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I assumed he didn't realize it was.
I did as well.
I had the joy of wrecking a Model G, and a Model One. The G uses the same coils as a One, and the same pole pieces, and it looked like the same magnets. If they made an Epoxy-Be-Gone product, you could make a G, or I guess you could make an X2n into a G. But structurally they were the same thing. I can't say what the output was on my G. The model one I still have intact was reading 18k as I recall. I'll take that. I am in the minority, I know, but I loved the positives of the DiMarzios and never got hung up on the things that people find to be negative. I also appreciate alternatives too, so one of these days I hope to get my hands on the new SG thing.
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I did as well.
I had the joy of wrecking a Model G, and a Model One. The G uses the same coils as a One, and the same pole pieces, and it looked like the same magnets. If they made an Epoxy-Be-Gone product, you could make a G, or I guess you could make an X2n into a G. But structurally they were the same thing. I can't say what the output was on my G. The model one I still have intact was reading 18k as I recall. I'll take that. I am in the minority, I know, but I loved the positives of the DiMarzios and never got hung up on the things that people find to be negative. I also appreciate alternatives too, so one of these days I hope to get my hands on the new SG thing.
Back when I bought some Gs they didn't have any epoxy in them, or is that just the Model One? I also had some Schaller Bassbuckers, which were Model G clones. I found the G to be too muddy, so I made two blades for it and stuck it in a guitar I had! I had it in the neck position on an 8-string bass. I did the same thing to a Bassbucker in my Kramer Duke, but I also unwound a bunch of wire on that to clean it up.
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My G had no epoxy. It was just all shoved into its plastic housing, which was a pretty neat way to try to keep things sealed up. I always wondered which came first, the G or the Bassbucker.
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My G had no epoxy. It was just all shoved into its plastic housing, which was a pretty neat way to try to keep things sealed up. I always wondered which came first, the G or the Bassbucker.
OK, mine was like that also. The G came first. The Schaller pickups are copies of the DiMarzios, even though DiMarzio had some patents on certain aspects, like the pole pieces. I guess it didn't count in Germany, or Schaller licensed the designs.
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You can rewind the mudbuckers to be cleaner. I rewound mine down to about 12k. It mixed real well with the Hi-A pickup I had at the bridge on my Rick. It kept a lot of the same charater too, but had more highs and wasn't overpowering.
That's the part I DON'T like. I'd rather be able to ocassionally dial in definition from something located in Jazz Bass bridge pickup territory, but I wouldn't want a Sidewinder with that bite all the time. I have an extremely hard attack and am a 'tone control rolled all the way off guy' 90% of the time.
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That's the part I DON'T like. I'd rather be able to ocassionally dial in definition from something located in Jazz Bass bridge pickup territory, but I wouldn't want a Sidewinder with that bite all the time. I have an extremely hard attack and am a 'tone control rolled all the way off guy' 90% of the time.
That's how I like my basses. On my neo pickups, the neck pickup sounds like a P bass. I actually modeled it off of the Ray Shulman's P bass from the band Gentle Giant. So it's a nice solid tone, but not muddy. Works real well on it's own. You can roll the highs off when you warm a thick slab of bass. I made the bridge pickup to sound good soloed. It has bite, but doesn't sound thin on its own. Together they get another tone.
My Sidewinders are my version of the old Lane Poor pickups. They are a cross between a Jazz and a Rick. But you can darken them up too when you need to.
I had a NOS mudbucker in my '73 Rick. That's the one I rewound. I really only rewound it so it would play well with my bridge pickup, but it still retained that deep smooth tone.
You can hear it on this track: Buzz Worthy (http://www.david-schwab.com/music/Buzz%20Worthy.mp3)
It wouln't be hard to make a tapped mudbucker, so you can go from the full mud winding, to something brighter.