Author Topic: Your resale rights are in danger  (Read 1640 times)

Dave W

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Your resale rights are in danger
« on: October 08, 2012, 11:11:14 AM »
Read about it here. It's a terrible lower court decision which has been upheld by a federal appeals court, if the US Supreme Court doesn't reverse it, it would mean a drastic change in commerce.

IMHO yet another reason why copyright should be abolished.

OldManC

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2012, 11:22:16 AM »
I read this yesterday and thought it was an Onion article when I saw the headline. This is insane.

gweimer

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2012, 11:39:03 AM »
The Chinese have never believed in intellectual property, as far as I know.  And I agree with you Dave, and maybe to expand on it - we place so many rules and prices on everything around us that it's going to choke us.  It's no wonder nobody can get ahead.  It's why McCartney learned early on that the real money in music isn't in selling records, or in writing songs, but owning the publishing rights.

And I see a huge can of worms in that article.  Why do they have widely different prices abroad, and will this proposal drive up foreign costs and reduce sales?  And if one pays a royalty to the creator with each and every resale, then shouldn't the contract for those fees be rewritten to accommodate for multiple sales of a single item, leaving a lower primary return?  Ebay wouldn't suffer; they'd just past the cost on to us anyway.

It seems that the TV industry figured out how to do this years ago, and ASCAP/BMI has tried to enter the ring, in the form of syndication rights.

As far as I can see, the only thing this bill does is benefit and encourage the consumption of new goods, making all used items less desirable and obsolete. Didn't Japan try to boost their economy by having everyone purchase new items every year or so, whether people needed them or not?
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nofi

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2012, 12:18:45 PM »
i can't see how this could possible work and be uniformly enforced.  it's just nuts. also,i want to know where that kid got 1.2 million for his textbooks. :o
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gweimer

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2012, 12:34:20 PM »
I've been looking over the information in the links, and it looks like international law and first sale rights are at the center of the argument.

Issue: How do Section 602(a)(1) of the Copyright Act, which prohibits the importation of a work without the authority of the copyright’s owner, and Section 109(a) of the Copyright Act, which allows the owner of a copy “lawfully made under this title” to sell or otherwise dispose of the copy without the copyright owner’s permission, apply to a copy that was made and legally acquired abroad and then imported into the United States?

JOSE A. CABRANES, Circuit Judge:

The "first sale doctrine" in copyright law permits the owner of a lawfully purchased copy of a copyrighted work to resell it without limitations imposed by the copyright [*212] holder.[fn1] The existence of the doctrine dates to 1908, when the Supreme Court held that the owner of a copyright could not impose price controls on sales of copies of a copyrighted work beyond the initial sale.[fn2] Congress codified the doctrine in successive Copyright Acts, beginning with the Copyright Act of 1909.[fn3]

The principal question presented in this appeal is whether the first sale doctrine, 17 U.S.C. § 109(a), applies to copies of copy-righted works produced outside of the United States but imported and resold in the United States. Under another basic copyright statute, it is ordinarily the case that "mportation into the United States, without the authority of the owner of copy-right under [the Copyright Act], of copies . . . of a work that have been acquired outside the United States is an infringement of the [owner's] exclusive right to distribute copies. . . ."[fn4]

Defendant contends, however, that individuals may import and resell books manufactured abroad pursuant to 17 U.S.C. § 109(a), which provides that "the owner of a particular copy . . . lawfully made under [the Copyright Act], or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy."

Defendant's claim is an issue of first impression in our Court.[fn5]

BACKGROUND

A.  The Parties

Plaintiff-appellee John Wiley & Sons, Inc. ("plaintiff or "Wiley") is the publisher of academic, scientific, and educational journals and books, including textbooks, for sale in domestic and international markets. Wiley relies upon a wholly-owned [*213] subsidiary, John Wiley & Sons (Asia) Pte Ltd. ("Wiley Asia"), to manufacture books for sale in foreign countries.[fn6] While the written content of books for the domestic and international markets is often similar or identical, books intended for international [**2]markets can differ from the domestic version in design, supplemental content (such as accompanying CD-ROMS), and the type and quality of materials used for printing, including "thinner paper and different bindings, different cover and jacket designs, fewer internal ink colors, if any, [and] lower quality photographs and graphics." Joint App'x at 18. The foreign editions, moreover, are marked with a legend to designate that they are to be sold only in a particular country or geographic region. One example of such a designation reads as follows:

Authorized for sale in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East Only.

This book is authorized for sale in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East only [and] may not be exported. Exportation from or importation of this book to another region without the Publisher's authorization is illegal and is a violation of the Publisher's rights. The Publisher may take legal action to enforce its rights. The Publisher may recover damages and costs, including but not limited to lost profits and attorney's fees, in the event legal action is required.

Joint App'x at 406 (emphasis in original).

Defendant Supap Kirtsaeng ("defendant" or "Kirtsaeng") moved to the United States from Thailand in 1997 to pursue an undergraduate degree in mathematics at Cornell University. According to Kirtsaeng, he later moved to California to pursue a doctoral degree.

B. The Instant Action

To help subsidize the cost of his education, Kirtsaeng allegedly participated in the following scheme: Between 2007 and September 8, 2008, Kirtsaeng's friends and family shipped him foreign edition textbooks printed abroad by Wiley Asia. In turn, Kirtsaeng sold these textbooks on commercial websites such as Bay.com. Using the revenues generated from the sales, Kirtsaeng would reimburse his family and friends for the costs that they incurred during the process of acquiring and shipping the books and then keep any remaining profits for himself. Kirtsaeng claims that, before selling the textbooks, he sought advice from friends in Thailand and consulted "Google Answers," a website which allows web users to seek research help from other web users, to ensure that he could legally resell the foreign editions in the United States.
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Pilgrim

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2012, 03:26:06 PM »
I'm a strong defender of copyright laws, as they are the primary protection of a great deal of critically important intellectual property.  However, I am not in agreement with some of the recent interpretations of copyright law. This one in particular has the potential to create a completely unworkable situation.

This is another of those situations (like digital materials) which falls into an unexplored and undeveloped area of law, and the legal system is running far behind the realities of the real world in catching up.
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Dave W

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2012, 05:21:09 PM »
IMHO whoever coined the oxymoron "intellectual property" ought to be shot. And if he's dead, he should be dug up, shot and reburied.

Copyright was invented to protect publishers from having to compete, and it's still that way. It has never been about protecting creators.

fur85

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2012, 05:43:36 PM »
IMO that article is a very alarmist interpretation of the case. I'm in school and when shopping for textbooks I've seen these "foreign editions" on eBay and they're half the price of the regular US versions. The defendant in this case is not merely re-selling the books he used in his class, he's running a scam that is killing the publisher by importing thousands of copies and dumping them on the US market at half the regular price. He's acting like an importer who is avoiding duties and these sales are more like first sales than second sales. I'm no fan of textbook companies as books for school cost a lot. But in this case I think they have a legitimate claim.

And I would be very surprised if it means someday I won't be able to sell a used CD on eBay.

Dave W

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2012, 10:11:04 PM »
IMO that article is a very alarmist interpretation of the case. I'm in school and when shopping for textbooks I've seen these "foreign editions" on eBay and they're half the price of the regular US versions. The defendant in this case is not merely re-selling the books he used in his class, he's running a scam that is killing the publisher by importing thousands of copies and dumping them on the US market at half the regular price. He's acting like an importer who is avoiding duties and these sales are more like first sales than second sales. I'm no fan of textbook companies as books for school cost a lot. But in this case I think they have a legitimate claim.

And I would be very surprised if it means someday I won't be able to sell a used CD on eBay.

Buying something new and reselling it isn't a scam in any way. He's not avoiding any duties either. If he can buy at retail overseas and make more than a million reselling here and still be at half of US prices, then the scam, if you will, is that the publisher is ripping off its US customers big time. That's what copyright does; it's a monopoly privilege, not "property".

If he's killing the publisher, then the publisher needs to rethink its business model or go out of business. Hopefully it will be the latter.

The article is alarmist, IMHO with good cause. More here and here.

gweimer

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 04:21:56 AM »
Buying something new and reselling it isn't a scam in any way. He's not avoiding any duties either. If he can buy at retail overseas and make more than a million reselling here and still be at half of US prices, then the scam, if you will, is that the publisher is ripping off its US customers big time. That's what copyright does; it's a monopoly privilege, not "property".

If he's killing the publisher, then the publisher needs to rethink its business model or go out of business. Hopefully it will be the latter.

The article is alarmist, IMHO with good cause. More here and here.

I agree with you on this.  Used textbook sales are not only encouraged, but are big business here.  Every college bookstore buys textbooks back and resells them, along with new books.  I'd be curious just how many books this guy moved. 
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fur85

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 05:15:53 AM »
Quote
I'd be curious just how many books this guy moved.

"According to evidence presented at trial and cited in a decision last summer by a federal appeals court, Mr. Kirtsaeng made from $900,000 to $1.2-million from the sales, suggesting that he was not merely reselling his own textbooks but was running a business."

from http://chronicle.com/article/Supreme-Court-Will-Hear-Case/131568/


gweimer

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Re: Your resale rights are in danger
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 05:50:06 AM »
"According to evidence presented at trial and cited in a decision last summer by a federal appeals court, Mr. Kirtsaeng made from $900,000 to $1.2-million from the sales, suggesting that he was not merely reselling his own textbooks but was running a business."

from http://chronicle.com/article/Supreme-Court-Will-Hear-Case/131568/


I saw the amount of money he made, and it looks like it was over just a few years.  If we ball park the cost of a college textbook at about $75, and figure he's pocketing 50% profit (which he didn't share with his relatives, according to the article), then we talking about something like 27,000 books.  If his profit is lower, then the number of books goes higher.  That's most certainly a busy enterprise.  How did this guy find time to get a degree?

1.  The shipping services he used must be mighty happy.
2.  You would think the publisher would have seen a sharp spike in sales, and gotten curious.  My college business professor once taught about knowing your market.  The story he told was the one where Glad couldn't figure out why they sold so many sandwich bags in Florida during the '70s.  The answer came from the class in a second - POT!  And that was the correct answer.  Glad didn't realize that their product had a niche market.
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