The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: Highlander on August 20, 2010, 10:41:58 AM
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There is no date that can be given to signify the start of the Batle Of Britain, but on this date, 70 years ago, Winston Churchill made that keynote speech with a line that is ingrained in the British memory, about what could arguably be considered to be the greatest airbone battle in history...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y60xvkJ8ko
The full speech... the line is at 3.03
Today, the last airworthy Spitfire (a Mark 11a registered as P7350 and operated by the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight) that was involved in the Battle of Britain, accompanied by a Hurricane (built in 1944) flew over London to coincide with the exact time the speech was made, and the plan was for them then to overfly as many of the BoB aerodromes as possible today - The Spitfire's pilot has a day-job training pilots to fly the Typhoon and flys as part of the BBMF on a voluntary basis - nice to have a such perks... ;)
There where many, many more Hurricanes involved in the Battle of Britain but fewer of them survive, and the Spitfire again arguably considered to be one of the most iconic aircraft ever to fly...
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(http://www.flightjournal.com/images/articles/britain/me109.jpg)
Uhum, for the benefit of historical truth:
The Luftwaffe Me 109s shot down more Spits and Hurris in the BoB than the other way around, most Me 109s lost were not making it home due to fuel running out (the Me 109 had a lousy range as did the Spitfire, but the Spitfire was closer to home).
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MXu96taKq-Y/S63QmvbL-AI/AAAAAAAAI88/5nT8BI-p91Q/s400/18.jpg)
Both the comtemporary Spits and Hurris could easily ourmanouvre an "Emil", but the "Emil" could outdive and outclimb them plus fly faster than a Hurri and as fast as a Spit. The Browning machine guns Spits and Hurris shared (concentrated in fours in the Hurri wings, spread apart in the Spit wings) were no real match for the 109s 2 cm flght cannons (which would have been of great use against the German bombers had the RAF fighters had something similar).
The RAF's better overall ratio came solely from the German bombers, dive bombers and Me 110s downed, none of them a match for the RAF fighters. If truth be told, the RAF fighters were also under orders to attack the bombers and not to engage in dogfights with the Me 109s, which made perfect tactical sense.
That said, I'm in hindsight rather relieved that the Battle of Britain was won by the good guys, happy celebrations, Ken!
Uwe
Contributory fault of the Führer: At the height of the BoB, the RAF was losing more fighters and pilots than could be built/trained due to the Luftwaffe's incessant bombing of Southern English airfields. The tide was turning for the huns ... Churchill's bold and clever move to have Berlin bombed (doing little damage there) after a Heinkel crew jettisoned its load over London (probaby in panic or because they were lost, they had no orders to do so) had Hitler flip and command the Luftwaffe to now bomb primarily London's industrial sites giving the RAF airfields a much needed respite.
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It's more a question of proportion though. Goering was supremely confident that he could do the job because of the vastly superior numbers of his air-force, their battle experience from the Spanish Civil War, their success up to that point and the assumed superiority of the 109. It should have been a walkover, but it wasn't. Entirely because of a Thermopylaesque stand by the RAF. With the amount of planes available to them the Luftwaffe should have shot down more than they did, this wasn't helped by the approx 10 minutes flying time they had over England.
BTW, most of the Hurricanes failed to survive because they & a whole lot of Spitfires were dumped overboard on the way back from the far-east in 1945.
I've just finished what is recognised as one of the best auto-biogs from The Battle of Britain; First Light by Geoffrey Wellum. He wasn't an ace, he was just one of the teenagers who had to grow up fast, survive on very little & nearly run himself into an early grave in those few weeks. He was a veteran at the age of 20! It's incredibly vivid & I would recommend it very highly to anyone with a vague interest in it.
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I think the Luftwaffe was fated to lose it before the battle started.
Simply put it was a tactical airforce, superb at ground support of the wehrmacht - well demonstrated in all of the early campaigns, France, Low Countries, Scandanavia, Russia the Luftwaffe was perfect adjunct. Hastily thrown into a true Stratigic role with improper aircraft for that job the result should have been apparent before the battle started. ( Keep in mind the sort of stratigic forces the allies used to bomb Germany, the RAF and the U.S. 8th and 9th (tactical) AF fielded thousands of planes in the effort to destroy vital material production from the air)
It doesn't lessen the valor involved however, the english won the day and battle. I have the sincerest admiration for all fought in the air in WWII, it took a rare courage from very young people.
Uwe: Well put, Mark, you beat me! But "Wehrmacht" is: Heer, Luftwaffe & Marine, German Army = Heer!
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True, the BoB was the first case of someone stopping the Third Reich at anything in a war. But the Wehrmacht wasn't really a force to conquer a non-continental foe, it was strictly a land army with tactical air support. Island wars were always incredibly costly for Germany, even a small place like Crete cost us our paratrooper force for the rest of the war. In matters of airborne or naval supported logistical operations of a huge scale, the Allies were vastly superior. At no point in time during its existence could the Wehrmacht have done something like the Allies did on D-Day.
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Maybe I don't read all the words and thought surely there must be more than one surviving Spitfire, I saw James May fly in one not too long ago.
What Kenny meant was: "Today, the last airworthy Spitfire that was involved in the Battle of Britain (a Mark 11a registered as P7350 and operated by the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight) , accompanied by a Hurricane (built in 1944) flew over London to coincide with the exact time the speech was made, and the plan was for them then to overfly as many of the BoB aerodromes as possible today - The Spitfire's pilot has a day-job training pilots to fly the Typhoon and flys as part of the BBMF on a voluntary basis - nice to have a such perks... "
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Verziehung Herr Moderator!
My German isn't always so sharp, ( I'm painting the interior of the house inbetween posts today) perhaps a stern lecture is in order ;)
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Mojo gets the job as my editor... (mad impetuous fool... ;D)
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It's more a question of proportion though. Goering was supremely confident...
Mentioning "proportion", "Goering" and "supremely confident" in such a short string of words ought to win you a prize of some sort!!!
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And he was an avid model railroader......................... :)
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Ken, on 15 September 1990, 168 aircraft in seven formations celebrated the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain. (taken from wiki) I was out the front of Buck palace watching. As were the royals including Princess Di. Quite easy to make them all out from where I was. So too the planes. I remember being impressed that so many Spitfires were still flying at all. I have some happy snaps somewhere but without being trained in land to air plane recognition the photo's are next to useless unfortunately.
I found this list by a guy on a releated forum:
The order of the Flypast over Buck House was as follows:-
1st Formation 7 Spitfires & 2 Hurricanes
2nd Formation
1st Cell 3 VC-10’s & 2 Tornado GR.1’s
2nd Cell 4 Hercules
3rd Cell 1 Nimrod & 2 Buccaneers
4th Cell 1 Nimrod & 2 Buccaneers
5th Cell 4 Canberras & 2 HS.125’s
3rd Formation
1st Cell 16 Tornado F.3’s
2nd Cell 16 Hawks
3rd Cell 16 Tornado F.3’s
4th Cell 16 Phantoms
4th Formation
1st Cell 16 Tornado GR.1’s
2nd Cell 16 Harriers
3rd Cell 16 Tornado GR.1’s
4th Cell 16 Jaguars
5th Formation The Red Arrows
6th Formation Lancaster
7th Formation 1 Spitfire & 1 Hurricane
After flying over Buck House, a Spitfire & Hurricane broke away from the 1st formation & reformed to create the 7th Formation.
A total of 166 different Aircraft. One of the biggest Flypasts flown in the UK
Planes TV do a video of the Fly Past
http://www.planestv.com/shop/products/ptv/dvd/battle-britain-flypast-dvd-1990
* He is then corrected by another poster who said : It was five Spitfires and the two Hurricanes of the BBMF and then one Spit and one Hurricane broke away from the formation and did the final section of the flypast.
Source:
http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23633 (http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23633)
Some photos here as well.
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Ooo!
A Lancaster?!!!
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Last year I tried looking into getting my g/fs Dad a flight in a Spitfire trainer. Apparently the idea is banned by the CAA, but if they were to allow it now there'd be something around a 10 year waiting list.
I was also told that there's a company that makes copies of them, if you have a spare million quid or so lying around.
When I was a kid Blackpool airport had a Lancaster & a Spitfire which you could go in. When I got into my Airfix years later I found out it was a Seafire :sad: cos it had a contra-prop for faster take-offs.
IIRC the Lancaster was sold to Australia & was flown there.
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Perhaps an interesting footnote to all of this, I'm currently reading a book titled "Oil and War" which is basically about oil's part in WWII on both sides, so far a very interesting read. The authors note that while both the early Mk. Spits and Hurricanes were either below or at par with the Me 109 in performance a heavy factor in favor was the octane of the fuel they each had.
The English evidently tested and found 100 octane avgas gave a far superior performance than the standard 87 octane rating, several refineries were developed to specifically produce this fuel for the RAF, in the field only minor adjustments were required on the aircraft's carburator.
In contrast the Germans were petroleum starved with very little domestic production, most of the fuel used in the Battle of Britain was captured French or Low Country stock of 87 octane. No refining capacity exsisted on the Continent to produce 100 octane avgas, Luftwaffe aircraft were all plainly marked with an octane triangle ( number 87 inside) on the forward part of the cowling - not an overwhelming factor but noteworthy all the same. During the famous conversation between Goering, Adolph Galland and Molders, Galland asks for a squadron of Spifires, Molders wants 100 octane avgas!
Not long after Galland's personal aircraft was modified for the higher octane gas as some limited stocks were found.
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I noticed the painting of the tail-less Spit having been rammed by a Bf 109 in Uwe's post. The DB on the fuselage refers to the call sign "dogsbody" aka Douglas Bader, the legless ace of the RAF. Fascinating story. I read his biography Reach For The Sky in 7th grade and have since kept it close to read from time to time. My grandfather was stationed in England as a quartermaster during the Blitz..............................he sent back many things. Stu I will be sure to pick up a copy of First Light on your say so !
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Perhaps an interesting footnote to all of this, I'm currently reading a book titled "Oil and War" which is basically about oil's part in WWII on both sides, so far a very interesting read.
That does sound interesting, especially the Allies continued bombing of the Ploesti (spelling) oilfields.
One common misconception of WWII is the belief that German tanks and armored vehicles ran on diesel fuel. In actual fact, most of the diesel fuel was reserved for U-boat use. Once I read that I was suddenly appalled trying to imagine the fuel mileage of a Tiger tank running on gasoline!
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Without going into specifics (since I'm at work ;) ) the huge misconception about the German Army is that it was "motorized" when in fact it was largly horse-drawn.
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Oil and War, indeed! Hence the ill-timed swing south to Kiev! Moscow was effectively abandoned, and the propaganda impact of the German army taking the Kremlin was avoided thankfully.
Goering was a supremely confident and feisty character once he was locked up in Spandau and kicked his dope habit. He got very lucid, and figured out he better off himself.
There was a bit I read ages back about how RAF veterans had almost no hypertension and were in great health long after the war. Steely sons of guns.
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When I was in high school I wrote Albert Speer and got his autograph. Under Speer munitions production increased drastically, even with all the bombings. They problem was they couldn't get half that stuff to the front because the Allies were bombing the hell out of the railways.
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Really!?
That's quite something, Speer's story was also a very good read.
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even a small place like Crete cost us our paratrooper force for the rest of the war.
You know, those mad cretes down there still have some Lugers hidden in their houses, just in case someone wants to invade them again... ;)
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If this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ttjz0/First_Light/
is half as good as the book it'll be amazing. I only read it last month & it's the next best thing to sitting in a two-seater Spit during a battle. True story based on the pilots autobiog; he was a "veteran" at 20! :o
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Ken, on 15 September 1990, 168 aircraft in seven formations celebrated the 50th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain.
Missed this posting (and with it being BoB day today) - They probably couldn't muster that many aircraft now... :sad:
The RAF is quite literally fighting for survival with the formation of a "Combined Forces"; there is also talk of the French and British Navies sharing aircraft carriers - apparently they only go to see every other year...???
There are imminent and stringent cuts due to be anounced for our Armed Forces this week...
For the 70th Anniversary - todays big event was unveiling a statue to the Kiwi that looked after the RAF protecting London... :-\