The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: Pilgrim on February 23, 2010, 02:58:40 PM
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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2011159167_aptoyotarecall.html
The president of Toyota's U.S. operations acknowledged to skeptical lawmakers on Tuesday that the company's recalls of millions of its cars may "not totally" solve the problem of sudden and dangerous acceleration.
"We are vigilant and we continue to look for potential causes," Toyota's James Lentz told a congressional panel. However, he repeated his company's position that unexpected acceleration in some of the company's most popular cars and trucks was caused by one of two problems - misplaced floor mats and sticking accelerator pedals.
He insisted electronic systems connected to the gas pedal and fuel line did not contribute to the problem, drawing sharp criticism from lawmakers who said such a possibility should be further explored - and from a tearful woman driver who could not stop her runaway Lexus.
"Shame on you, Toyota," Rhonda Smith, of Sevierville, Tenn., said at a congressional hearing. Then she added a second "shame on you" directed at federal highway safety regulators.
Texas Republican Rep. Joe Barton cautioned his colleagues early in the hearing against conducting a "witch hunt" and said "We don't want to just assume automatically that Toyota has done something wrong and has tried to cover it up." But midway through Lentz's testimony, Barton said of Toyota's investigation of the problems: "In my opinion, it's a sham."
(I used to live in TX in the district Barton represents - he's such a business advocate that if he doesn't believe them, I doubt anyone will.)
(More story at the link)
I heard a story on NPR this AM...a gent was sitting at a light with his foot on the brake and the engine surged with his foot completely off the gas. He shifted into neutral and turned it off....but he had no idea how a problem with the gas pedal sensor could cause that. Neither do I. If the sensor itself is running amok, then the spacer Toyota is installing isn't going to help.
My money's on Toyota NOT having the fix for this...and it's going to hurt them. This is just what domestic automakers have been waiting for.
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Pearl Harbor finally avenged! :mrgreen:
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I just flat out don't believe the story of the woman with the runaway Lexus. She changed her version of events after it was pointed out that she could have turned off the car. Now she says she couldn't put it in neutral and couldn't turn it off. What a damned liar.
No doubt there have been real problems, even fatalities. But these orchestrated hearings smack of a Soviet show trial.
Here's the truth about NHTSA complaints (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the-truth-about-nhtsa-complaints/) -- note that Toyota has had fewer complaints than everyone except Mercedes Benz, Porsche and Smart Car.
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One problem with the government owning two of the big three domestic auto manufacturers in the U.S. is the question now of whether they're just protecting their investment by going after anyone else if they get a chance. I'm not saying they are, but it's a legitimate question now.
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I just flat out don't believe the story of the woman with the runaway Lexus. She changed her version of events after it was pointed out that she could have turned off the car. Now she says she couldn't put it in neutral and couldn't turn it off. What a damned liar.
..sad to say that she's from my neck of the woods and that behavior is quite the norm, especially for Sevier County: anything for a fast buck. My wife has that same model Lexus that predates the recalls, and you can easily shift it into neutral if need be. (I've knocked it there by accident with my elbow.) I don't think you can turn it off in drive.
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One problem with the government owning two of the big three domestic auto manufacturers in the U.S. is the question now of whether they're just protecting their investment by going after anyone else if they get a chance. I'm not saying they are, but it's a legitimate question now.
I've heard this same thing being debated a lot lately. But of course we can trust our elected leaders to always do the right thing.................................................. :rolleyes:
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...just now watched her testimony. It's bullshit. Watch her body language and watch how carefully rehearsed her statement was with specifically designed "impact points." The gear shift is still a physical mechanism, and even if an "electronic fault" overrode the automatic transmission's shift points, reverse at speed would tear out the drivetrain and neutral would have disengaged the engine and redlined it.
I worked for a few years in the Sevierville area and I think I've met her and the experience was not positive. It's also possible she has visited my TV station, though not for anything regarding this incident.
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I'm sure that there are enough people trying to hop on the train now and I'm always sceptical of those "I couldn't stop the car"-stories. But the "state-owned car companies are behind this" is a bit too conspirationist for me! Do you really think that if GM and Chrysler were still privately owned, they would not gloat about the marketing and brand disaster caving in on Toyota? For decades, Toyota argued with its quality - and they did build good cars no doubt -, but if you ram that down everybody's throat you shouldn't be surprised about the sniggering if you're caught handling a technical defect abysmally bad. From what I've read, Toyota hesitated and ignored for too long and thereby helped create the problem they now face.
That woman might still be a lousy driver though!
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Uwe, it's not the gloating I'm worried about (and you're right, Toyota deserves whatever schadenfreude it has engendered due to its self inflicted PR nightmare). What I'm worried about is political posturing and grandstanding masquerading as consumer protection where lots will be said (when cameras and reporters are near) but little will be done.
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The potential for driver failure is indeed high since so many people are woefully ignorant about how to operate a car and unwilling to admit their incompetence.
Remember the Audi "unintended foot-on-throttle" events in the 80's? People's claims were ridiculous...the problem was that the gas and brake were set up ideally for the joy of heel-and-toe driving, but the idiots missed the brake.
My wife and I ran out and got a great deal on an Audi 5000 Turbo during that mess - drove the costs of used Audis way down. We drove Audis for 20 years after that.
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The throttle on my (non Toyota) stuck wide open this Summer while driving to the beach with my 12 year old son. Scary. Even with brakes applied, I was going over 70. Shifted into neutral, shut off the ignition and pulled over - good thing I was on a wide road with light traffic. If the same thing had happened in the city or a residential area, I would have hit something or somebody.
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Congress has nothing better to do?! What a pack of freakin' idiots! We're drowning in red ink and my great, great, grandkids already have their souls mortagaged to Beelzebub and they have to put on a dog and pony show? They should all fire themselves and try to find a real jobs >:(
Not discounting for a minute the severity of the problems that Toyota is having - just the idiocy that is Washington D.C.
(Sorry for the rant Dave, please delete if need be)
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I was just telling my wife maybe we should keep an eye out on used Toyotas over the next few months. If they tank like the Audis did we could make out big time!
Dog and pony show... I don't know if I'd even have been that charitable. ;)
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I'm sure that there are enough people trying to hop on the train now and I'm always sceptical of those "I couldn't stop the car"-stories.
No surprise here: Toyota “sudden acceleration deaths” suddenly accelerate (http://www.openmarket.org/2010/02/16/toyota-sudden-acceleration-deaths-suddenly-accelerate/)
It's too bad, because some of the stories are true. There is a real problem that Toyota has failed to address until now. But once the plaintiffs bar gets involved, the phony claims will swamp the legitimate ones. You can count on it.
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You have to expect a few fairy tales in a litigious society. But when you have a company like Toyota having several different groups within the organization being well aware of the fact that their products are literallly killing people over a period of several years, you have to wonder how the hell this is going to play out. A load of fake stories may be the least of it all.
I try not to buy into conspiracy theories, and haven't heard of anyone suggesting the new Federal overseers are behind the publicity, but the comments by Mr Lahood seemed to have been motivated by something beyond the realm of responsibility. And there is a lot of money involved, which makes for interesting things, including Toyota suggesting simillar concerns internally.
Bottom line is Toyota knew about it, and they were willing to let people get into fatal wrecks instead of dealing with anything beyond rug mats. Now they are suggesting that they are aware of a potential electronic freak event that could happen, but because they can't figure how to replicate it - yet - then that can't be it. YEESH. If they had done the recall when they figured it out, it would have been a lot better for everyone.
I like my Volkswagen. If Americans had decided to buy Vauxhalls and Cortinas instead of the cheap Toyopets 40 years ago, we'd probably have wound up in the same place anyway.
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One solution for anyone concerned about runaway acceleration: manual transmissions. Try to find one. Even if manufacturers offer them on paper, dealerships seem to order all their stock with automatic slushboxes. That's "I enjoy my latte and cellphone" America for you.
Question for the woman testifying today: if she claims her Lexus was bombing down the expressway at 100mph for six miles and could not brake...how was she able to make a cellphone call to her husband? That was her thought instead of turning of the ignition? Then she said it was "the hand of God" that stopped the car. Sounds like a clear admission she totally checked out from operating the vehicle. This woman sounds dangerous behind the wheel, whatever car she drives.
One last dig...most Lexus, Camry, and Land Cruiser drivers in these parts are moving roadblocks. They suffer from unattempted acceleration, so I can see how anything involving speed would send them into shock.
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One last dig...most Lexus, Camry, and Land Cruiser drivers in these parts are moving roadblocks. They suffer from unattempted acceleration, so I can see how anything involving speed would send them into shock.
Funny & so true-Lexus -worst cell phone drivers oblivious to the world around them, or the pretend rich, currently poor.
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A clutch would certainly make the problem less fatal, but I actually prefer an automatic transmission. That need never be a contributing factor, as this hasn't been a problem ever for the owners of many millions of cars over the past 60-70 years. Maybe some simplification is in order. I am a big fan of the old Powerglide. It came with only two gear sets - fast and faster.
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In the spirit of "unattempted" acceleration....
I admire the Audi specialist in the Olympia, WA area who calls his business "Intended Acceleration". Ned Ritchie began in 1990, he upgrades audio Audi turbo cars and can boost them up as high as 400 HP, street-legal. Now THAT'S an Audi I'd like to drive!!!
http://www.intendedacceleration.com/
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One problem with the government owning two of the big three domestic auto manufacturers in the U.S. is the question now of whether they're just protecting their investment by going after anyone else if they get a chance. I'm not saying they are, but it's a legitimate question now.
I've heard this same thing being debated a lot lately. But of course we can trust our elected leaders to always do the right thing.................................................. :rolleyes:
Gee, looks like Toyota can't catch a break...
Gina Talamona, a spokeswoman for the anti-trust division of the U.S. Justice Department, said her office was investigating "the possibility of an anti-competitive cartel" by automotive electronic components suppliers.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100224/AUTO01/2240417/FBI-searches-3-auto-suppliers-in-Metro-Detroit#ixzz0gUYXHiZG
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20100224/AUTO01/2240417/FBI-searches-3-auto-suppliers-in-Metro-Detroit
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How about using a cable from the accelerator pedal to the injectors like back in the olden days. Acceleration by electronics (drive by wire) just seemed like a bad idea when they first started using it.
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How about using a cable from the accelerator pedal to the injectors like back in the olden days. Acceleration by electronics (drive by wire) just seemed like a bad idea when they first started using it.
YES!!!!!
Three things that should NEVER be drive-by-wire:
Steering
Brakes
Throttle
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It's comforting to know that no American manufacturer would let unsafe cars on the road for years.
Now pardon me while I go put some new Firestone tires on my Ford Pinto.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHOnJ04Vc
At the 4:00 mark, Dave's point is made!
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He hit that Pinto way too hard!
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People have thought Japanese automakers and their products have walked on water since the 1970s when American manufacturers had many, many problems. In the 1980s Ford began its "Quality is Job One" campaign and went a long way towards improving quality and GM and Chrysler followed suit. The truth is that the Big Three have built pretty good cars and trucks for a number of years now and lots of people who still bitch and moan about how bad they are have never owned one. My '89 Dodge Dakota made it 265,000 miles before it finally burned a valve.
Toyota has had quality problems since at least the early 2000s when the oil passages on the Avalon V6 tended to clog but the company blamed the owners, claiming it was THEIR fault for not getting the oil changed regularly. A coworker had the problem with his Avalon and Toyota blamed him, even when he produced the records showing the oil had been changed at the prescribed intervals AT THE DEALERSHIP.
Another coworker had a VW she was always complaining about so she sold it and bought a Honda, which had numerous recalls and went to the dealership multiple times because the drivers side window mechanism often failed to operate. She STILL wouldn't admit the car had problems.
While I hate that people have been killed as a result of the failings in these Toyotas, I'm glad the company is being scrutinized and hauled over the coals; maybe they will be ready to admit it when problems occur rather than blaming them on the owners or idiotic floormats.
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One reason I take consumer reports car surveys with a grain of salt is that I don't think people report or evaluate cars the same way. For many people if their "US-made piece o'crap" has a problem, then they think it's a bad car and give it terrible ratings. If they have the same problem with their 'Reliable Japanese car" or "Finely crafted German car", they shrug it off and don't report it!
I think the same is true for many other consumer survey sites - people have expectations, and those expectations influence their reporting.
I've had two cars that had TERRIBLE ratings from C.R., and both of them served me very well and were fun to drive.
BTW - this is not a general condemnation of C.R.'s reports, because I think most are very helpful - I just think they fail to account for the emotional aspect of how people regard cars. The same issue doesn't apply to toasters and vacuum cleaners.
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I doubt if the Toyota interview on Larry King last night helped any. The only reason I was watching is because Walter Koenig and his wife were being interviewed about their missing son. Two minutes before they were supposed to go on, they walked off the set for some reason. I don't know if it is because they received bad news about their son or if they had been driven to the brink of madness by Larry's pointless questions.
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One reason I take consumer reports car surveys with a grain of salt is that I don't think people report or evaluate cars the same way. For many people if their "US-made piece o'crap" has a problem, then they think it's a bad car and give it terrible ratings. If they have the same problem with their 'Reliable Japanese car" or "Finely crafted German car", they shrug it off and don't report it!
I think the same is true for many other consumer survey sites - people have expectations, and those expectations influence their reporting.
I've had two cars that had TERRIBLE ratings from C.R., and both of them served me very well and were fun to drive.
BTW - this is not a general condemnation of C.R.'s reports, because I think most are very helpful - I just think they fail to account for the emotional aspect of how people regard cars. The same issue doesn't apply to toasters and vacuum cleaners.
A buddy of mine, who now designs Blackberrys, went to a design trade show in Detroit some years ago and met a guy who worked for Chrysler in the plant where Eagle Talons, Plymouth Lasers and Mitsubishi Eclipses were built. He told my buddy that although the three cars were built on the same platform at the same plant, the Plymouth received 3 times as many customer complaints as the Eagle and the Mitsubishi. I think a lot of this was a combination of the residual effect from the poor quality of the mid/late '70s Mopars and a belief that Japanese cars were superior in all aspects, neither of which was 100% accurate. Like a former boss told me once, "Perception is reality", and he's right.
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CR has some true flaws in their reviews, and I would say their import bias over a couple of decades was blatant. To echo the Mopar complaints, they had published similar reports in the past concerning GM where they would suggest one model had a better record than another where the parts in question were the same, and sourced from the same factory. But overall, they really are a decent guide. They give an accurate review for used cars, and what is a risk from maintenance and resale. They were pretty up front in recognizing Ford's uptick in quality control and design. But as noted perception is reality. I think people just adopted the idea that something like a Tercel was a better car than an Escort, or a Corolla will give you more for your money. It just isn't reality although it once was years ago. I have driven a Kia. It was a very nice car. I drove a Prius. Nice car. I drove a Malibu. Nice car. It is hard to find a bad car.
I did drive a Russian thing in Canada that was kind of like a jeep. It was HORRIBLE.
Funny thing about the Avalon oil issue - the VWs made over the last decade had the same issue. Seems that to fit the 4 cyl in the Passat they just created a smaller oil pan. The turbo then "cooked" the oil into sludge which cycled through the engine more due to less capacity, and then, if you are not a big maintenance person, BANG - your engine goes south. Mine didn't seize, but VW got up front about it and rebuilt the entire top end of my motor for me. Nice Volk, those VW volk. For now, I stick to my VW.
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I'm still waiting for Mazda to reintroduce the rotary engine in all its sedans.
Anyone else remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHzeGEHWMjo
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I'm still waiting for Mazda to reintroduce the rotary engine in all its sedans.
Anyone else remember this?
Nice! There are still one or two of those sedans running around town here. Remember once upon a time you could get a rotary in a Mazda pickup truck!
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Funny thing about the Avalon oil issue - the VWs made over the last decade had the same issue. Seems that to fit the 4 cyl in the Passat they just created a smaller oil pan. The turbo then "cooked" the oil into sludge which cycled through the engine more due to less capacity, and then, if you are not a big maintenance person, BANG - your engine goes south. Mine didn't seize, but VW got up front about it and rebuilt the entire top end of my motor for me. Nice Volk, those VW volk. For now, I stick to my VW.
That's a great reason to run synthetic motor oil in any turbo motor. It has considerably more resistance to gelling and breaking down under hi-temp operation.
Amazing how even engineers can forget that the motor oil is a critical part of the engine's cooling system. Reduce the volume of oil and you reduce the heat sink effect - and the oil runs hotter, suffers more mechanical breakdown and generally ages much faster.
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The only real problem we have had with Toyota is with our 2001 Rav4. We started to notice a problem shifting between 1st and 2nd gear so we took it in. They said they could not replicate the problem which is somewhat understandable considering the problem usually only happened when the car was first started in the morning. We took it back to them again when it had gotten a bit worse and they still said they could not find anything wrong. I started doing research and found that it was linked to the ECU to which they replied that there was a recall on it. By that time, the damage was already done. Now the car still hangs and jerks when going into 2nd if accelerating too fast. They still fail to admit that they had anything to do with the transmission issues we now deal with even though we took it into them when the problem first started, before the damage occurred.
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Wankel engines. Time for them to return.
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Wankel engines. Time for them to return.
I wish I could a) afford a Norton rotary and b) get it past emission requirements for the US.
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RX-8 has one or was it discontinued?
Funny thing about the Avalon oil issue - the VWs made over the last decade had the same issue. Seems that to fit the 4 cyl in the Passat they just created a smaller oil pan. The turbo then "cooked" the oil into sludge which cycled through the engine more due to less capacity, and then, if you are not a big maintenance person, BANG - your engine goes south. Mine didn't seize, but VW got up front about it and rebuilt the entire top end of my motor for me. Nice Volk, those VW volk. For now, I stick to my VW.
Subaru adds an oil cooler on top of the engine. I use synthetic oil as well.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/Fenderbird/Car/engine.jpg)