The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: Stjofön Big on October 20, 2011, 07:20:27 AM
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Alles gut! For the last 30 years I've been using a Fender Dual Showman with 2x15" for my basses. Before that there's a Bassman 50, an Acoustic, a couple of Dynacords, and - first of all - a Luxor radio from the 40's. Never thought about getting me an Ampeg.
Then I listened to a bass playing friend of mine. Fantastic tone with a lot of rumble. That was a Danelectro longhorn through an Ampeg V4B from the 70's...
So now I'm checking out for that amp. Anyone in this here bunch, and placed in Europe, who knows where to find one?
And as I know there's folks here who's got all the information needed, concerning the V4B: Would it be possible to get your opinions on that amp?
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Had one for years in the 70's...loved it.
Real Heavy.
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played one from 72 to about 80 with a svt bottom under it. actually prefered it over my SVT head except for large outdoor venues where the headroom mattered and i used 2 cabs - the other being the v4 bottom - 2-15 in horn . heavy as hell but pretty tough. atually been yearning to get another one. I can't speak about the newer ones i have no experience...
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Used a vintage V4B in the mid 90s. Didn't have enough headroom for a loud rock band.
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I believe Basvarken has one. You see them sometimes on eBay and other market sites. There's also the guitar version which is exactly the samen + reverb. Bass players use that one too.
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what patman said. i also had mine on an svt cab playing a gibson eb3 through it.
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I JUST sold my '74! Loved it. Great for recording. Monster tone without blowing down the walls like my SVT. Completely different animal than the newer ones. If you like vintage growl, this is it. About 60 pounds. Headroom can be a problem though, depending on the gig and/or drummer. ;)
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I used the svt cab also...classic setup. I never really noticed headroom problems except it was too furry for slap, I remember that.
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One of the best bass amps ever. I've had my '71 V4B since i was in my teens - also have a V4, which is basically the same amp. The V4B was never about clean headroom - the growl is part of its charm.
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I have an early seventies V4B. My favorite amp for recording. It has a lovely sweet drive.
But on stage with a loud rock band it just isn't loud enough. You get beyond that sweet drive and it just distorts more.
The B40 cab that I bought with it is not the most efficient cab. It doesn't put out really deep and tight lows.
But more modern cabs like the Edens that I use bring out the magic of the V4B very well.
When I bought it, in the late nineties, nobody cared about the V4B. I didn't pay a lot of guilders back then.
Last few years they've become a bit of a hype with indie bands. Prices have been climbing ever since.
About four years ago I retired my V4B for the live gigs with the band. I only take it out a couple of times a year to rehearsals just for fun.
The Ampeg SVT II Pro that I had was absolutely loud enough. But it did not have that sweet sound of the V4B and most important, it was too heavy for my back. So I sold that one. And then I bought an Orange AD200 (mk1) as my main stage amp. It is 200 watts and that is enough for me. But soundwise it can't compete with the V4B...
At this very moment I have my V4B at the amp doctor's to have it serviced for the upcoming recordings for a new Superfloor album that we'll be recording in a few weeks.
I'm looking forward to hear that sweet and subtle drive again!
And I'll be using the "Ext. Amp" option as a Direct Out to the mixing console again. Works great!
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It also depends on the bass you use. I have one (a mid seventies V4, with reverb) and it works great with a Ric or a P. With my Squier TB it's impossible to use, the output of that bass drowns the V4. For me it has allways been loud enough, even in a pretty loud rock band.
A couple of years ago we had a 'buizenbakkendag' (tube amp meet) with some people from the Dutch bass forum. It was mainly Rob trying out all amps and all basses and about eight people listening to him (and Chris taking pictures). My V4 seemed to have more headroom than Rob's amp, but maybe that was just because mine had brand new tubes.
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The response/power of an old V4/ V4B (assuming it is stock) is determined by its electrical health, the quality of output tubes, and how hot they're biased. In general, they do better with higher output passive basses and top out for clean volume at a moderately loud rock band setting. However, if you like overdrive, it will do a nice growly grind that tops out in a cool fuzz that only mushes out at its absolute maximum. The SLM and later (current) "V4BH" models are a completely different design with less gain, a different voicing, and lower output power.
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My experience is similar to others in this thread - fabulous tone, but not enough headroom to cut it live with a loud rock band. So, I sold my V4B for a Traynor YBA200, which still struggled with headroom on occasions, but the Traynor YBA300 I now own has more than enough juice.
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Hyvää päivää! Thank's to all of you who's made me feel I'm on the right track, The V4B Track.
Earlier on I forgot to mention that I've already got a small Ampeg, B1-RE, which, simply enough, doesn't deliver what I need: fat bottom, with barbed-wire sound on the top. That's the sound I can get from my Dual Showman, but that one is in my other rehearsal space, and you understand I can't carry it around between the two rehearsal rooms as they are divided by 6 kilometers...
I run the B1-RE through a 4x10 + 1x15, Ampegs. Which brings me to the next question: What's the difference between the B410HE, and a 4x10 Classic?
And, in the end: Anyone's got any thoughts about my project, my Ampeg speakers with the V4B on top?
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I never had a problem being heard with the V4B. In larger venues there was always PA support, and we were never painfully loud anyhow.
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Being heard is not the problem. Keeping it tight without too much drive ( fuzzy blur) is the problem.
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I have a '90's V4BH that I will use on my 2x15 LGS cab, and find that for most situations it works just as good as my 450 watt 3-Pros. The 3-Pro does have a little more clean headroom, but the V4BH is more than capable in given me enough clean thump with out being overdriven. In this pic I'm using it to push the 2x15 while the B15 powers a 4x12. Killer combination!
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj401/stiles72/Ampeg%20Portaflex%201962/portaflex-bastard001.jpg)
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I use a V4-B through an Ampeg SVT 1540HE (410+115+horn.) As others have stated, the only issue you'll have is that at anything past about 11 o' clock on the volume dial turns into massively dirty distortion. It stops getting louder, and just gets more distorted. This isn't really a problem unless your band is excessively loud and/or you like having lots of clean headroom. If your band is really loud, a mic'd venue is going to be your best friend because this amp just won't get loud enough.
That being said, V4-Bs are really great amps. Lots of thump, really big, booming rock tone. Flipping that mid switch between the three positions also gives you a lot of different colors to play with in the tone spectrum. Also, being able to go between 4?, 8?, and 16? is great for using more than one cabinet, as well as having a direct out for bi-amping. That makes this amp very useful if you have the extra gear to accompany it.
When I play larger venues I tend to bi-amp mine with an Orange AD30HTC either with the Orange through a 2x12 cabinet, or both through the Ampeg stack (Orange through the 410, Ampeg through the 115.)
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Thanks for all the info, you guys! Just yesterday I got connected to a guy down in Europe who's got a V4b without the master volume, and at a good price. Both my Ampeg B1RE, and my Dual Showman, has got the master, and I think it comes in handy. So, what do you think concerning the advantages of a V4B with master volume? Plus your thoughts about that amp - without MV - in connection with B410HE + B115E?
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'course I don't remember what I had for supper last night....but I don't remember a master volume. It's been 30 to 35 years, though. I could be wrong.
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There were a few 70's V4's/VT22 (combo) with master volumes, but no V4B's. The V4BH that was later introduced by SLM and is still in production (though I would strong recommend against buying a new one) has a master volume. There are master volume mods for vintage V4's that would 'work' in a vintage V4B too, but they're mostly for more distortion, not more headroom. An old V4B is going to sound pretty good through most cabs. It ought to be great through the B410HE and B115E.
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Thank you guys! You're the best! I understand now that the thought of an Ampeg V4B with Master volume is a matter of misunderstanding, on my behalf. I've had some trouble keeping my head together the last days, since I discovered the V4B for sale. Gotta get it! Thanks again!
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iamthatguy just reminded me of a setup I used for a while in the mid 90s. I re-wired my vintage SVT cabinet as (2) 4x10s. I ran the SVT head into the bottom 4 tens and a 1x15 cab, and ran the V-4B through the top 4 tens. Oh mama! That was a heavenly rig, but just too much to deal with on a regular basis.
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If you're looking for more power and clean headroom out of a V4B, the hot ticket has always been to have the amp retrofitted with 6550s - however, you can probably expect a change in your tone as well. Actually, some later V-series amps carried a label on the back panel which read "7027A/6550 - Use one type only". I think there was a factory hop-up kit offered...
Having said that, there's something about those 7027s that just flat out works in the V4B. Some have said that you can get similar results with a good NOS 6L6 type tube (like a 7581), but I have not had the chance to explore that.
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Shit! >:( Just got a message from the guy in England, the one who had the V4B for sale. He's just sold it, to another person! And it was only £400, which is around $650! I feel really disappointed... Well, well... They didn't make just one of them. But, f--k! I could almost smell it! Was just about to call USP to arrange delivery... :sad:
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' he who hesitates IS lunch '.
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Shit! >:( Just got a message from the guy in England, the one who had the V4B for sale. He's just sold it, to another person! And it was only £400, which is around $650! I feel really disappointed... Well, well... They didn't make just one of them. But, f--k! I could almost smell it! Was just about to call USP to arrange delivery... :sad:
The V4 is almost the same amp - minor differences in circuitry and reverb (which the "B" doesn't have), but totally workable.
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There are several V4's for sale on Ebay at the moment.
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As far as my expert witness says, there's a huge difference between the V4 and the V4B, as they work in different areas soundwise. He's got at least four of the B:s, but won't let go of any of them. :-[ And the V4B:s I can't find on Ebay. Except for one in the south of France. To get them from USA is to expensive for a simple guy like me. ??? If there ain't anyone with some economic ideas?
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If you're looking for more power and clean headroom out of a V4B, the hot ticket has always been to have the amp retrofitted with 6550s - however, you can probably expect a change in your tone as well.
You'll get a slight increase in headroom, but the 6550's require twice the bias of 6L6GC's/7027A's and will probably idle far too hot unless the bias circuit is modified but it's not worth the hassle. If you need more volume that badly, get a bigger amp, another V4 used in conjuction, or use more speakers. 6550's won't give the amp more than a 5-10 watt boost.
Actually, some later V-series amps carried a label on the back panel which read "7027A/6550 - Use one type only". I think there was a factory hop-up kit offered...
Not so on everything but the tube chart, and that's only half right. Ampeg did use 7027's and 7027A's and specify them, but it was because they got them at a discount from RCA, who was trying to use Ampeg's reputation for power to help sell them after the hifi market ignored them. A 7027 is just a 6L6GB / 5881 with extra screen grid connections, which are unused in Ampegs, and the 7027A is just a 6L6GC / 7581 with extra grid connections. If those connections were used in ultralinear configuration, then those tubes could potentially develop more power than their standard brethren in the right circuit, but there is no advantage to using them over a regular 6L6GC in Ampegs. The 6550 is a completely different tube, the next 'step up' in power in the US beam tetrode family of tubes: 6V6, 6L6, 6550.
Having said that, there's something about those 7027s that just flat out works in the V4B. Some have said that you can get similar results with a good NOS 6L6 type tube (like a 7581), but I have not had the chance to explore that.
I've got lots of both (and a couple of V4's). They're the SAME tubes (http://www.triodeel.com/7027.htm).
As far as my expert witness says, there's a huge difference between the V4 and the V4B, as they work in different areas soundwise.
There isn't. There are only minor parts value differences in the preamps and one is easily converted to the other. Their power sections are the same. The quality and output of the power tubes makes a much bigger difference in sound than the amp being a "B." Any differences your expert hears are far more likely attributable to the quality of the tubes in the individual amps than the model designation.
He's got at least four of the B:s, but won't let go of any of them. :-[ And the V4B:s I can't find on Ebay. Except for one in the south of France. To get them from USA is to expensive for a simple guy like me. ??? If there ain't anyone with some economic ideas?
Get a 'regular' V4. They're more plentiful and not very popular as guitar amps, and hence, generally cheaper than V4B's. If you absolutely HAVE to have it to V4B specs, any decent tech can easily convert the preamp.
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V-4 and V4-B, close enough for rock and roll. And 3 caps away from being the same tonally except for the 'Ultra Low' switch according to this guy.
http://stonemarmot.com/rants/?p=38
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You guys never stop to amaze me! This is absolutely something I'm gonna dig deeper into! Thanks again!
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ampeg-V4-Guitar-Bass-Tube-Amp-/220880390289?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336d7f4891
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ampeg-V4-Guitar-Amplifier-Excellent-Condition-/180744411645?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1534d9fd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ampeg-V-4-Tube-Amplifier-80s-Vintage-/120799605193?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2037b1c9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ampeg-V-4B-vintage-/260880331558?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbdadf326
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ampeg-V4-100-Watts-Bass-QOTSA-Guitar-Amp-Baby-SVT-/190592070671?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c602c340f
Get it back in shape or build your own:
http://www.fliptops.net/catalog/index.php
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I've seen one of the 7027A/6550 labeled amps - it was a MV-equipped VT40 (the later front panel variety) at a guitar show years ago. The note was silk screened onto the rear panel with all the other stuff.
From Ned Carlson's (Triode Electronics) FAQ page:
>>Some models of Ampeg V-series specifically say on the cabinet schematic that 6550 (or KT88 or KT90, they are all interchangeable) can be used directly in place of the 7027's. Others don't...there's several varieties of all these amplifiers, since changes were made through the years of production. There's probably a few odd variations floating around that even serious Ampeg experts haven't seen! At any rate, if you want to make darn sure your 'Peg 'll handle the extra current draw of 6550's, plug 'em in and check the voltage across the filament lines (pins 2 & 7) of the output tube sockets. If you're getting much less than 6.3V AC, then it's no go.If that checks out OK, then let the amp run for awhile, and check how hot power transformer is getting. If it's getting too hot (it'll get warm but shouldn't burn your fingers), you've either got to go back to 6L6's or change the negative bias so the 6550's aren't drawing as much idle current.
Note that a lot of folks have used 6550's in these model Ampegs for years..but there's always that odd exception, and we don't want you blowing up a power transformer, so we strongly suggest checking this stuff out as noted above.
Q.So where's the bias adjustment?
A. Ain't none.Some folks with the knowhow can install a bias control adjustment in an Ampeg,and it's a neat idea, since some folks might like the sound of tubes biased hotter (higher than the 25-35 ma you'll typically see), and tubes like 6550 can certainly handle a bit more current. But I would note that because of the high (over max published ratings) screen voltages, I'd play safe and not bias tubes for more than 75% of rated dissipation (plate current X plate voltage): eg: for a 6550, not more than 30 watts, for EL34 or 6L6, not more than 18..tho some 6L6 and large bulb 6CA7 might be able to handle 25.
Q. Are you sure about that 6550 thing in the bigger Ampegs?
A. Yep. Here's a couple of pertinent comments...
Lord Valve Stateth:
Some of the later ones, the master-vol types made while Ampeg was still Ampeg, say right on the schematic that you can plug 6550s in with no mods at all. It's down in the really small print with the 'notes'. LV
Bluemuse wrote:
Ampeg literature from the mid-70s for the VT-22 and VT-40 at least, say there was a Performance Kit available consisting of four 6550 output tubes and tube retainers, yielding 130 watts from the normally 100-watt VT-22, and 80 watts from the normally 60-watt VT-40. I don't know if there is anything else besides the tubes that was included in the kit.
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I don't care how the amps were labelled. 6550's won't work safely without having the bias circuit modified, period. The "upgrade kit" was Ampeg's way of selling off excess stock SVT power tubes and was supposed to be installed by an Ampeg service center, and the bias adjustment would have been done at the same time. Like the "requirement" of two cabinets for the SVT, it was a marketing ploy and nothing more. I don't have a problem with using 6550's in the V-series Ampegs, but it's not the end-all be-all magical sound change it is often made out to be. I do prefer the sound of 6550's in them, but for the average musician who will have to find and pay a good tech to do the work, it's an unneeded extravagance.
Also note that in regards to modern tube types and makes discussed in the link that I posted and lowend quoted, the information is fifteen years old and some of it is now outdated and incorrect.
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The date on that information really could be a big deal. Several years back, the best techs around were all jumping on the 6550 swap as being the best bang for buck mod out there for anything that ran 6L6 tubes. A few years later the same guys were changing their opinions to it's good on some and dangerous on others.
I'm no tech and I am somewhat talking through my ass here, but I am one of the guys who did get away with the swap on a cheapo Airline amp . A few years ago I went back to the 6L6 tubes anyway based on the advice from PBG.
Rick
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There was a long period of time in the 90's through the early 2000's where it was pretty hard to get decent 6L6's. Mesa and most dealers were either selling crooked-glass Chinese junk or Sovtek 5881's. New Sensor hadn't started making true 6L6GC's yet and Svetlana's production and QC was very irregular, as was EI's. There was no JJ Electronics. Even crappy Chinese 6550's would work fine in circuits designed for 6L6GC's as long as their heater current draw didn't kill the filament windings in the amps' power trannies; that's also discussed on Ned's page. The outdated info is in regards to the then-current 7027's; AFAIK, all the ones being made now meet the actual 7027A/6L6GC specs.
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PBG, in your experience, do the current 6L6s produce full power in something like a V4/V4B? What are your personal faves (that are available now) in terms of performance/reliability?
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I'd trust the JJ 6L6GC's, KT66's, and the New Sensor "Tungsol" 6L6GC, "Electro Harmonix" 6L6EH, "Svetlana" (NOT Flying C) 6L6GCSV, and Sovtek 6L6WXT+. I've had positive experience with older examples of Svetlana/Flying C 6L6GC's, but they've been having lots of problems lately. I've also not had much trouble finding old stock US made 6L6GC's, but I realized that I may have just lucked out.
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I've had good luck with the Sovtek 6L6WXT+ in my B15 and V4BH. They seemed to have a little more output than the JJ's I had been running, and I don't notice any real difference in the tone.
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I've got a set of JJ 6L6s in an old Gibson Atlas and they provide a cleaner sound with a little more headroom before breakup than most tubes, and I have a set of Winged C 6L6 tubes in an old Airline/Dano which have a much earlier break up and sound identical to the old Motorola tubes that originally were in the Atlas.
Rick
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I had a V4-B head years ago with RCA 7027A's, it was a nice sounding head but lacked for headroom. I used to use it for rehearsal. SVT's always sounded better to me, the ultra lo was voiced a little different I think.
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6550-based output sections have an inherently stronger sub-bass extension because the 6550 has over twice the peak current capability of the 6L6GC and current=bass.
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Used a vintage V4B in the mid 90s. Didn't have enough headroom for a loud rock band.
I had the same experience back in the 70s with one. Nice sounding, but not loud enough unless you want full blown Felix Pappalardi.
But then Everett Hull didn't like loud music. ;)
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All right, you guys. I followed your lead, and got me V4. Bought it from a well known Swedish organist/bassist who had two of them. Told me it'd been in for service half a year ago (when new end-tubes (?) were installed), which I find believeable, as the guys a professional musician. The V4 seems to have been taken care of very gently. The end tubes
The sound is, as you guys above told me earlier on, great. I don't regret one bit buying the V4 instead of a V4B, though that would have been great, also. I guess my amp is from around -76, as it don't have the distortion knob. 2 channels, bass, mid, treble, the (for me) unnecessary reverb, and master volume.
I've only tried the V4 out in my rehearsal place, but I can compare it to my Fender Dual Showman, and know that it, concerning volume prestanda, will do anywhere in the places I'm used to gig. I've placed in on top of my 1x15, and 4x10 Ampeg cabinets, and I really enjoy the feeling of a small earth quake that I get in company with my G-n Ripper with T-bird pup.
I haven't decided yet whether to go with your thought of changes, Dadagoboi, but I might in a while. Just for the joy of it.
Again, a big Thank's for you helping me in my desicions, fellows!
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Congratulations Staffan!