The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: ack1961 on November 29, 2011, 01:40:25 PM
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I know little to nothing about any of this live sound stuff...
I'm trying to help the kids out getting their practice space ironed out..OK, OUR practice space (the old man needs his fun, too).
They practice (sometimes as many as 5-6) upstairs in our guest room (renamed the Jam room), but we're all having trouble hearing each other (even when it's just my 2 boys on guitar/bass & drums). The drums just crush everything else in this room (roughly 17'x20' carpeted) and it becomes a wall of sound.
Currently, I have a 16 channel board with XLR outputs going to 2 powered monitors:
- 180W as a monitor solely for the drummer - bringing vocal, guitars and bass from the board
- 300W we use as a floor monitor - same output, but for everyone else in the room
Unfortunately, my son's Vox guitar amp doesn't have an output (other than headphone out), so I need to use a kick drum mic/stand to pump it through the mixer. It all sounds fine until everyone starts getting a little too excited, then it becomes a tricky to distinguish instruments.
I was then thinking about IEM's for the kids for Christmas, but I'm struggling to understand how/if they'll be able to achieve a better mix through them. I am getting concerned about the noise levels in that room (from their hearing standpoint). I got them some Etymotic Research earplugs, but they don't always use them.
Are IEM's a viable option to start researching to solve this issue? We're out of rooms at the house.
Thanks,
Steve
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I don't have any experience with IEM's , but I am really interested in hearing what people have to say about them...
Have been concerned with sound levels on stage, and IEM's seem like they could be a solution. They are also lighter and smaller than the current JBL EON that I am using.
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Ramblings of a bitter ex teen:
Why you need monitors at all in a room that small is a mystery to me. You're just escalating the arms race...they probably don't listen to each other any way. Better off getting a smaller drum kit for practice so everyone can turn down. In the long run it will make them all better musicians. Limitations are good.
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In my opinion, you should only be putting vocals through the monitors. It sounds to me like everyone is competing with the drums, which can be tough to deal with. A plexi shield will help a LOT. If you get the drums under control, you're in good shape since you can obviously turn down the guitars and bass.
My band uses IEMs both live and in rehearsal, and I love them. Same mix no matter where you stand. How much money you got??? ;)
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Originally, the floor monitor was used solely for vocals, and everyone brought their own guitar amp. The room dynamics are part of the issue here - the 45 degree half walls on two sides, the low ceiling (8 ft.) just make everything bounce right back to the center of the room.
The other part of the problem came when junior got good (and very loud) on the drums. He couldn't hear vocals or guitars, so I used an old 180W bass amp to use as a monitor strictly for the drummer to hear vox/guitars. My bass rig is right next to him (and oriented towards him), so he gets about 600W of bass aimed right at his coconut - he feels that fine enough.
This is our only drum kit (and has subsequently cost me a small fortune in cymbals), and he uses it for practice and gigs. Getting a smaller one for practice is not going to happen. Besides, he's 13 and wants to rock to Sabbath and The Who, not play any of this synthesized pansy music that most of the kids are listening to these days. For this, I am thankful and look for another solution other than turning him down.
If IEM's are the wrong tree to bark up, then that's fine - I'm just curious. As for price range, I was hoping to get both kids outfitted for <$800. Not sure if that's possible or not.
The plexiglass is interesting...I will look into that a bit.
It must sound weird to most, but I'd sell a nut to keep these guys (and their friends) upstairs and playing instruments rather than driving around looking for stuff to do - sometimes, Jam Room overkill is a lure.
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This is our only drum kit (and has subsequently cost me a small fortune in cymbals), and he uses it for practice and gigs. Getting a smaller one for practice is not going to happen. Besides, he's 13 and wants to rock to Sabbath and The Who, not play any of this synthesized pansy music that most of the kids are listening to these days. For this, I am thankful and look for another solution other than turning him down.
He's going to need to learn to reign in his playing on his kit. Heavy-handed drummers who play that hard tend to get worse the longer the play if they can't hear/ listen to other players. You've already got way too much power for that small of a room. Unless you go with custom sealed molds, ($250-300 per set JUST for the earpiece molds) all IEM's will do is cause hearing damage.
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Unless you get go with custom sealed molds, ($250-300 per set JUST for the earpiece molds) all IEM's will do is cause hearing damage.
I have to disagree. I've been using the stock, black foam that came with my Shure SE425s for a year now, and they isolate very well. Molds would be better, but I don't personally feel the need. They ship with 3 different sizes, as well as some other misc. neoprene ones, etc. The 425s are $300 a pair. My whole PSM900 system - transmitter/receiver/buds - goes for about $1300. I got a small discount through Shure.
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We use them live and at rehearsal, I really them!
Specifically at rehearsal our drummer is the loudest ( he actually isn't a loud player tho, just average) thing in my typical basement. Our vocals, keys and guitar don't make any audible signal except what goes into the IEM. I don't put the bass into the IEM for rehearsal as it is present enough in the room tho I don't play loud.
The benifits are that you can really hear what your bandmates are doing and easily correct mistakes, save your hearing, not piss off the neighbours quite as much, not have to lug monitors or set them up, not trip on monitors when you're onstage.
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I have to disagree. I've been using the stock, black foam that came with my Shure SE425s for a year now, and they isolate very well.
That may be, but you're also not dealing with that amount of volume in such a small space.
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Given the setting, it sounds like IEMs would serve more as ear plugs than as listening devices.
Playing loud is fun, but it does sound like the overall sound level needs to be controlled.
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Given the setting, it sounds like IEMs would serve more as ear plugs than as listening devices.
Playing loud is fun, but it does sound like the overall sound level needs to be controlled.
To some extent they do serve as ear plugs Al, they definately cut off the highs from cymbals and when you spend the night with your left ear a few feet from them on a small stage I'm very glad I have them. You really can control the volume and for me that helps what's left of my hearing, we really aren't a loud band - it doesn't serve our purpose to be too loud as it drives people (especially women) away and then nobody dances......So we watch it with the volume.
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An advice for European IEM-users. I heard stories about the frequencies used by those devices. It seems a lot will change and those frequencies will be used by other devices, so IEM and other wireless stuff will be useless in the next few years. I guess you have to buy new ones or manufacturers will have to offer upgrades or something.
I heard those rumors, but I can't confirm them.
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This is what we're dealing with in the US:
http://fohonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3279&Itemid=1
Real bummer for people that already own lots of older wireless gear.
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'used for public safety AND new 4g wireless stuff'. i bet i know which of those two is the real benefactor.
" when corporate america throws its mighty shield..."
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What is the practical difference between the $600 Shure set-up and the $1300 Shure set-up?
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'used for public safety AND new 4g wireless stuff'. i bet i know which of those two is the real benefactor.
" when corporate america throws its mighty shield..."
You don't know the half of it! The FCC won't even listen to the NAB any more. She only sleeps with cell boys and their big money.
I love the Cap quote.
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The first time I saw a plexi shield for a drummer was in the late 80's. My band got a new drummer who was a jazz fan and he showed up to our first gig with it. He said it was all the rage but I thought it looked ridiculous. Until we played. Best we ever sounded both on stage and in the recording we made that night. I could actually hear everything and was amazed at how much easier it was to play that way. As long as everyone doesn't sneak over to their amp to turn up a shield may be a great, affordable option.
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The drum shield idea is interesting (I've been looking at ClearSonic products), but I'm not sure it addresses my main concern; The drummer is already having trouble hearing vocals and guitars. A drum screen is going to make it even more difficult as he is going to be engulfed in his own sound and it would block direct amplification from the room. I would think that the drum shield helps everyone else in the room, but is of no benefit to the drummer. I would think that an IEM or dedicated monitor (for the drummer) would be essential if you deploy a drum screen.
I get the concept, and it certainly has merit in some applications, but I may be missing the point of these shields for my purposes.
Not trying to be stubborn, just trying to understand as much as possible.
Thanks for all the replies.
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I suggest again: a moderate size speaker sitting next to the drummer can assure that he hears any signal needed. We have done this a lot - our drummer keyed off the lead guitarist, and I had no trouble locking up with the drummer. We just ran an extension off the lead guitarist's amp.
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Why not deaden the room some? IEMs might very well be needed but for far less than a couple of sets of IEMs you could sonically control the room. Drop a layer of Homesote sheets on the floor followed by some cheap plywood, layer of dense padding and some durable carpet. You could deaden some of the opposing walls/ceiling with insulation and few movable/insulated partitions would help as well. Your neighbors will thank you and you will be able to hear the TV downstairs to boot ;) This would help the noise level overall and kill some of the ricochet problem. I'm with everyone else on volume control - it's something that everyone needs to learn but hard to grasp as kids.
Next, we can discuss hearing loss, 30 years later, of former kids that just wanted to rock loud ;D
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Next, we can discuss hearing loss, 30 years later, of former kids that just wanted to rock loud ;D
EEEeeehhh?
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EEEeeehhh?
HUH!! WHAT!?? Quit mumbling already!!
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Make the drummer play with brushes and make everyone else turn down. :rimshot:
No, but in all seriousness, I know how this goes. I was in a band when I was around 15 that had the same problem. Drummer too loud, no one could hear each other, everyone kept turning up their amps that were way too big for a garage, too much sound for such a small space. You know what happened? I'm 26. I have tinnitus. Mild in one ear, severe in the other (the one that was close to the drummer all day.) And let me tell you, a constant high frequency ringing in your ears that NEVER goes away is very frustrating.
I'm not sure what you should do. But do it quick, for the kids' sakes. IEM's seem like using a fire hose to put out a candle, but that's just my opinion. I would suggest seriously getting the drummer to play softer, and padding the hell out of that room to minimize sound reflection. Also, get them to wear the earplugs. Those hi-fidelity ETYs aren't so bad. You kinda have to push them in far enough in order to reach a spot where the sound cuts through again without being nothing but bass, so make sure they do that.
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Thanks for the advice.
Before the holidays, I laid down the law to the kids and their bandmates who use the Jam Room.
For live band playing: ETY's at a minimum (I think I've purchased 8 pairs by now)
For the Drummer, we'd like for him to use headsets, but -20 dB ETY's at a minimum - headsets when practicing.
For the parents, we now use the Vic Firth over-ear headsets - they work well (especially at the dinner table).