The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: uwe on September 18, 2014, 11:39:27 AM
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2014/sep/17/scottish-referendum-explained-for-non-brits-video
Me? I'm essentially undecided, with a pro-Union slant. I like the Scots (and their political views), but I dread micro-state-ism, it's archaic. But since the English tend to be stuck up vis-à-vis their northern neighbors, there is a little devil in me holding for independence. Yet my brain says it's all wrong and how a Scotland-less United Kingdom would essentially consider itself even more what it has always considered itself since the US saved its ass in WW II: A 51st US State and an aircraft carrier of the US anchored in the North Atlantic rather than a European country. Without the Scots, the residual Brits will never realize that they are Europeans, I haven't given up hope for them yet.
Of course, the British "written constitution-less" system suffers for its lack of federalism. Federalism is awkward, hugely costly and often ineffective, waters down decisions and promotes compromise, both the US and Germany would know. It also prevents something like what's now happening in the UK. What federalism was granted to Scotland in the last decade or so might have not been too little, but it might have been too late.
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The 51st U.S. State is British Columbia, just fyi ;D
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Re today's vote, I saw this comment and it literally made me laugh out loud: Too wee, too poor, too stupid. And while I don't really think the Scots are those things, I think it's illustrative of poor decision making that may or may not have gone into this whole mess (thanks to Tony Blair) that 800,000 Scots won't even get a say as to whether they may wake up tomorrow as foreigners in their own (former if the yes vote prevails) nation.
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I just removed one comment that I found rather inappropriate (and racist even).
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Coming from who it came from, I believe that was irony, Rob!
Irony, how I hate it. Despicable.
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I was referring to this.
http://blog.godreports.com/2014/08/1400-children-raped-and-trafficked-in-british-town-by-men-of-pakistani-muslim-heritage/
I could have worded things in abetter way but basically I think an independent Scotland could choose to adopt laws allowing their citizens to protect themselves and their children from a similar tragedy.
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Journalism in optima forma... :sad:
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The history of nations is to unite and divide over and over. China has had 5000 years of it. The British empire has been contracting since at least the end of WWII, this is just the latest chapter.
If the vote is a 'yes' I imagine those with strong enough pro England feelings could emigrate if they tried hard enough. I'd personally like to see the Scots make a go of it.
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Well, an independent Scotland sure has a romantic sound to it. I suspect that they get more financial support than they give to the Brits. But, like Uwe, it does have a nice rebel tinge to it. As for me, I want to split NY state in half: from Albany east to NYC for one state, the rest of us west of Albany another. That would be sooooo empowering!
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I heard today on NPR that Scotland is relatively wealthy - what with the north sea oil and the spirits it exports.
As far as splitting NY the Texas state constitution allows Texas to secede. All the screaming about about the financial impact of Scotland breaking away imagine if Texas actually left the US - last I read Texas was the 7th largest economy in the world on it's own.
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The 51st U.S. State is British Columbia, just fyi ;D
^ just wants it for the cash crop exports :P
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^ just wants it for the cash crop exports :P
It's not us Washingtonians that want B.C. - other way around. I'm good with it, B.C. is a lovely Province!
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Gutted...
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Understanding why...
Mum and dad lie overlooking the sea in a graveyard that has been the final resting place of most of my family going back several generations... I know dad would have voted yes and I'm pretty certain so would mum...
The Scottish psyche is fractured by its roots... so much of the Hebrides is now changed from what it was and so many "white-settlers" are living there now, hence the 10.5K no plays 9k yes (circa 21k live there) but what of the history...
The Islanders only, finally, got the right of tenancy of their homes in 1912; prior to that they were treated like cattle... my mothers people were transported from the Atlantic west coast as an entire village, because they were good fishermen, and the owner of the Island, who was a Lord made his money from the opium trade... my family had no choice in the matter... my paternal side worked as "Tacksmen" for that Lord... in a modern vernacular I am descended from thugs that worked for a drugs-baron... fact.
The Gaelic language was banned in school... my dad was forced to learn English, "because it was the law" and post WW1 so many were dejected and still emigrated as it was the only chance they had at getting a decent life free from oppression and hunger... how many people in America/Canada/New Zealand/Australia have Scottish and Irish roots, all down the British (read English = Westminster) Rule of Law, which still exists to this minute...
The Clearances... study that period, and, unfortunately, the Stewart side of my family has that "blood" on it's hands, and understand the value of sheep versus Highlander and the bloody removal of families for the aforementioned animal...
The Highlands... once covered in forest, now a barren land, cleared for the same woolie-jumper by the "Lairds" from the south...
The men that laid down their lives for generations and generations often returning home post fighting for their King, only to find there families moved-on...
Yes... gutted...
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Oh yes, and Alex Salmond understood that Europe is the bigger picture...
It will not be many more generations before all that will be left of the British (read English) Empire, is their language...
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Thank you for the eloquent history lesson, Kenny. We'll see what comes of the promises made to convince so many to vote no.
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I think the outcome of the referendum has put the lid on any England aspirations to have the UK leave the EU - that would provoke a secession of Scotland once again. Whitehall will be careful.
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I think the outcome of the referendum has put the lid on any England aspirations to have the UK leave the EU - that would provoke a secession of Scotland once again. Whitehall will be careful.
I was listening to BBC coverage last night. The English pols have already started dragging their feet on promised changes.
This is the 'democratic' version of what the Russians are doing to the Ukranians.
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I think the outcome of the referendum has put the lid on any England aspirations to have the UK leave the EU - that would provoke a secession of Scotland once again. Whitehall will be careful.
I would have thought if Scotland won independence it'd want to be independent from the EU as well. The whole thing isn't exactly coming up roses for Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Greece either right?
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Kenny,
I would be interested in reading of this...can you recommend any well written histories of modern Scotland? Your post made me understand that I don't have a clue about what's really going on here.
Pat
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Kenny,
I would be interested in reading of this...can you recommend any well written histories of modern Scotland? Your post made me understand that I don't have a clue about what's really going on here.
Pat
At least 2 of us.
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I'm feeling much better today... onwards we go...
Books...
Remember that my views are somewhat narrowed by my Island history, so... oh yes, and most of the best titles I have are already packed for that planned trip to the land of the (not so) free and not looked at any older title in over a decade so going from memory... ;)
A Dance Called America by James Hunter - perfectly titled for some of yous folks about what became of some of my ancestors and why they left...
On The Crofter's Trail by Craig David - another study on the Clearances...
John Prebble books are a good intro - Culloden, Glencoe, The Highland Clearances... he did some good general and other histories on Scotland too...
Some of you will know of a film called Zulu, which was based on an article of his, and he also wrote the film's script...
A Shilling For Your Scowl by James Shaw Grant is an interesting and eye opening account...
Social Island histories - a couple by a cousin of my late mums, Calum Ferguson, called Children Of The Black House and Lewis In The Passing - my Island's culture, like the language, is dying, but (the language) is still stubborn enough to lie down and accept it - these are probably too specific for you though... there is an older title called Peat Fire Memories by Kenneth MacDonald - all three of these titles are first hand tales...
Which bit of the history do you want to learn more about and i'll try and find you a specific title or titles...? the boxes need re-packing anyway... there are quite a few that are yet to be packed together anyway as I tend to buy new and older titles whenever I go Home...
One of the last I got was called The Soap Man by Roger Hutchinson - the story of the last man to OWN the Hebrides - Lord Leverhulme - of Lever Brothers & Unilever fame... after his death, his wife eventually gifted the Island, in trust, to its inhabitants, sort of...
I have a few hundred titles on Scottish and Island histories and such... there is even a large format title I have on the unique wrought ironmongery of the Island, as in WWII it was considered too expensive to have it all taken down and re-cycled... fascinating book, in a highly geeky way...
Oh yes, the 1745 Rebellion that ended at Culloden in 1746... not so good for my family as the Appin Stewart's, my ancestors, fought on the side of the Jacobite cause and post that battle fled for their lives as most of those that fought were hunted down and killed: man; woman; child...
As for the English V Scots nature of the battle, that bit of history is not entirely clear for some as Scots fought on both sides of the line...
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this will get me started...
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Let me know how you go...
Uwe... check out UKIP... that is what is keeping Cameron awake at nights...
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Let's not mention Glencoe. ;)
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Walked that road, as you know, and have both sides in the family, as you also know... :mrgreen:
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The John Prebble books seem readily available...probably a good place to start?
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Old books, but it's an old story... they are a good read... enjoy the history lesson...
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I was a little surprised to see the humility displayed by some of the English who seemed to be literally pleading for Scotland to stay. In a world which seems to be sinking into chaos at times, Scotland certainly got international attention for a while. Plus, 45% may not have been enough to win, but the way I look at it, that's still quite high.
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Politics is banned here so I'll step lightly...
The British Empire should be called the English Empire as that is what it has always been...
James the Sixth of Scotland destroyed the Scottish economy, threw it away in an appalling fashion, but a cousin of his, Elizabeth I, died with no heir, so he got the gig by signing over the whole country whilst the then equivalent of the Civil Servants (the people that did and still do run things, not the puppets that are there for a while as "figureheads") took control of it all...
As a land mass Scotland is pretty insignificant but without it England is as diminished as its Empire and the only thing my government is concerned about is its feet under the top-table...
Political facts: it is difficult to put the equivalent across to an American population but here goes...
Three party politics... Conservative = right wing, Liberals = middle ground, Labour = socialism/right-wing
Others: the Irish, Scots and Welsh have a semi devolved political structure, which loosely translated means let's throw them a bone and let them think they have control of their lives...
The realities for the three parties and why they would wish to keep Scotland is as follows...
Labour - Scotland is a predominately Labour/Scottish Nationalist Party block vote and a general consensus of opinion here is that they would never get a clean majority again without Scotland...
Liberals - we're screwed...
Conservatives - Oh My God, what will the Americans think...?!?!?! Our Permanent Seat on the UN Security Council will be lost...!!! The G8 will become the G7... they only think of themselves and the powers they would lose and not the people - You have E Pluribus Unum, and our political leaders have Ubi Sit Pecunia and stuff you lot...
The spanner-in-the-works is UKIP - the United Kingdom Independence Party - which will take a lot of Tory voters with it next May, which is the thing they presently fear the most; that and trying to balance the books re what they have promised the Scottish people and how the rest of the country now is angry about it...
Geographical fact... there is a ring-road around London called the M25 and within it lives 2.5x the population of the whole of Scotland...
End of political education discussion...
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I was hoping this subject would come up here, since I don't (personally) know any Scottish people, other than the person that took me over there all those years ago (I got hired to photo a wedding there in 2000) Anyway, she is super pro-independance, but since she's technically from Alabama (her great-grandparents came there a long time ago) I don't think she counts...
Is the independence vote something lots of actual Scottish people are involved in, or is it more of a media thing? Thanks.
Oh yeah, thank you for the book reccomendations, I always like to find new historical subjects to read about that I otherwise wouldn't have heard of.
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It was for all the residents of Scotland...
All over for a Generation...