The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: GonzoBass on February 15, 2014, 11:57:11 AM
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A bass with the serial number of my stolen Steinberger is for sale on another board.
I've e-mailed the seller but received no reply yet.
As with all Steinbergers, the serial number is on the neck.
The bass was white when I owned it
(25 years ago when it was stolen)
and now it's red with a red pick guard.
This makes me think the neck was bolted onto this body at some point.
Now...
Is the bass still mine
and do I have legal claim to it
or just the neck?
Any informed opinions are greatly appreciated.
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Gonzo, I don't have an answer to your questions, but if you've emailed an active seller and haven't gotten a prompt reply, I would contact the board owner and let him know.
Good luck!
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Thanks Dave.
The Admin knows and notified me of the original post.
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I don't know under US law, but under German law, a stolen bass' legal title can never be validly transferred no matter how many middle men there are, there is no bona fide acquisition of title, once stolen (= void title) it is contaminated forever, even if ten men in a row are bona fide and had no idea. But stolen means stolen (embezzlement works too), fraud (= only voidable title) does not suffice (if the purchaser is bona fide) because the defrauded relinquishes possession voluntarily (even though based on deception). The involuntary relinquishment of possession is the key ingredient why legal title cannot be transferred with something stolen.
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Just heard from a colleague with US background that the situation in the US is much the same as in Germany (as you would expect in something as fundamental as fungibility of stolen goods, most sophisticated legal systems try to prevent that via prevention of valid legal title transfer).
http://2012books.lardbucket.org/books/the-legal-environment-and-business-law-v1.0-a/s21-02-title-from-nonowners.html
"Void Title
A buyer may unknowingly purchase goods from a seller who is not the owner of the goods. If the seller is a thief, the seller's title is void -- legally, no title exists. Thus, the buyer acquires no title, and the real owner can reclaim the goods from the buyer. For example, if Jim steals goods owned by Mark, Jim has a void title to those goods. If Jim sells the goods to Sally, Mark can reclaim them from Sally, even though Sally acted in good faith and honestly was not aware that the goods were stolen."
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Thanks Uwe!
He's got it listed on his local CL-
http://southbend.craigslist.org/msg/4326690219.html
but I can't get a reply from the guy to confirm the serial number of the bass he's selling.
Although according to this listing,
he updated the ad the day after I e-mailed him.
:-\
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Isn't there a statute of limitations?
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Doubt it. Not in Germany at least. Original ownership doesn't become time-barred. Having a statute of limitation on stuff like that would contradict preventing long-tern fungibility of stolen goods. People would just stash them away, wait for the time-bar and then sell them legally and validly.
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Isn't there a statute of limitations?
There's this WWII art theft thing I've heard a little about....doesn't seem to be relevant there.
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A George Clooney fan!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBfMOmR4S9M
And if I may add: Some Western Nations stole their whole country from the original native in ... habitants. Tough luck if you didn't have a land registry to prove it. :-X
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There were no serial numbers involved...or they all got filed off.
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There were no serial numbers involved...or they all got filed off.
Single filed to Oklahoma
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There were no serial numbers involved...or they all got filed off.
http://www.npr.org/2014/02/13/276021092/ancient-dna-ties-native-americans-from-two-continents-to-clovis
looks like they found the serial numbers
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Never heard of that Clovis culture before, interesting. Always believed that even the ancestors of the native Americans settled North America much later.
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That's what a lot of people thought until recently , that's why this find is a big deal. The Clovis points were very similar to a similar sudden sophistication in flint knapping in Europe, but up until this there was no way to tie them to any dateable remains leaving the scope open for lots of different explanations, even support for Europeans across the edge of the Pacific icepack theory.
The Native Americans have always maintained they were the original inhabitants but there has been friction between them and the scientific community of late because they feel that science is trying to repaint them as just another immigrant wave, so it's nice that that now some science has proved their side for them.
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Guys, can we please keep this on the subject of Gonzo's bass? First, he deserves that much respect. Second, at least one member is confused enough by the subject drift to write me. I can see why, since Gonzo's bass has a serial number, and next thing you know people are talking about no serial numbers.
Start a new thread if you need to. Please.
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I've definately heard of people getting property (including guitars) back many years after the fact. Did you file a police report 25 years ago? dont think you mentioned if you did or not. Personally, I would go back to the department you filed it with and let them know you've tracked down the item and go from there. Not sure what they'll tell you about the neck vs body. Guess it was stolen and then parted out? Sucks either way.
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The "seller" clearly states "I bought this bass new when they first came out", so if reported to the Police at the time, and numbers recorded, place it back with them...
If it wasn't reported, verbal contract territory...
Good luck...
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The "seller" clearly states "I bought this bass new when they first came out", so if reported to the Police at the time, and numbers recorded, place it back with them...
If it wasn't reported, verbal contract territory...
Good luck...
Gonzo hasn't said whether it was reported to the police, but he has reported it online as early as 2002 on the Steinberger World Yahoo Group.
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Thanks Dave...
Yes, a police report was filed at the time of the theft.
I've contact that precinct
and I am in the process of tracking that report number down through "Public Records" here
but since this was stolen in 1988,
those reporst are on microfilm...
The only documentation I have at this point,
is the original warranty card with it's purchase date/serial number
and my original receipt.
It has been documented as stolen all over the web though.
That is what prompted the e-mails I received the morning this hit the web.
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Keeping them crossed...
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Raider of the Lost Paddle! Go, Indie, go!
(http://earnthis.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/indiana-jones-and-the-raiders-of-the-lost-ark-original.jpg)
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He listed it on eBay
and immediately sold it through the "make an offer" feature-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steinberger-Newburgh-XP-4-String-Electric-Bass-Guitar-red-Classic-/181330759293?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a3827ce7d&nma=true&si=NpVii5j5W1wDXC52jZeD0dUiJKk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
The Indiana police have been notified of this
but the detective I've been dealing with is off till Monday.
:-\
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You should contact ebay. They'll be able to identify and contact the buyer.
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He listed it on eBay
and immediately sold it through the "make an offer" feature-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Steinberger-Newburgh-XP-4-String-Electric-Bass-Guitar-red-Classic-/181330759293?pt=Guitar&hash=item2a3827ce7d&nma=true&si=NpVii5j5W1wDXC52jZeD0dUiJKk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
The Indiana police have been notified of this
but the detective I've been dealing with is off till Monday.
:-\
When I saw my stolen Jerry Jones on eBay with a BIN, it didn't take me long to bite the bullet and hit the button. I figured if someone else did it I might never get that bass back.
Hope you can get it back!
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I hope you and the detective can close this one quickly. But I would contact eBay too.
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I did notify eBay also.
The drama continues...