The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Fender Basses => Topic started by: uwe on March 23, 2011, 05:28:48 AM
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Dear Fenderistas,
I'm a bit exasperated as I had to bring Edith's wonderful present of a Candy Cola American Standard Jazz back to the shop - barely four months old, the truss rod adjustment hex socket has already become stubborn (or even frozen) to a point where the ball point hex allen wrench gouges the socket (not to mention the dents it leaves on the pickguard where the cavity is as you need so much brute force to turn it). Realizing that it wouldn't be long until the socket screw will break off the rod, I returned it for guaranty work with a heavy heart and asked for what wll most likely be a replacement neck. The shopowner understood and said it wasn't the first time either.
What is it with me and Fenders? I've owned four Fenders in my life, two from the US, one from Japan and one from Mexico. One broke off (US), one froze (US, the one just returned), one is stubborn and pretty much at the end of how far it can go (Mex) and one is just stubborn but at this point still works (J). I admit to being a neck adjustment obsessive and stickler - that a bass has its neck adjusted four times a year (every season basically) is not unheard of with me. Is it that there is no such thing as an easy-to-turn Fender adjustment screw because the necks pull so hard? Do you have to be The Incredible Hulk to turn them? I have no Gibson where you have to fight the wood as much, I have Yamaha basses where the adjustment screw turns so smoothly you can turn it with your hand (and it still adjusts the neck I hasten to add) and on my Musicmans, which have maple necks too, the adjustment wheels turn easily and smoothly as well. With Fender its always "turn-crunch-click-take breath-turn-readjust tool-turn-crunch-click-take breath-readjust tool" etc. Or is the slanted access via a ballpoint hex key not really a serious recommendation and you are still expected to take off the pg with its dozen screws :rolleyes: to get sensible access to the adjustment socket screw (whose shallow depth even then still raises worries)?
From a trussrod adjustment screw, be it wheel, socket, slotted or bell, I expect in 2010/11 that it turns smoothly, without you really needing to exert force/torque, without it creating weird noises, clicking or jumping in intervals, without strings needed to be removed, necks pre-bent manually, pick guards taken off for better access etc.
I take it that this is just simply unobtainable from the world's inventor of the electric bass, ja?, and you guys have simply gotten used to it? :-\
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Bad to hear.
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Fender truss rods are the same diameter as Gibson and work on the same principle. But the heel adjust ones are harder to turn, no doubt about that. OTOH what you're describing isn't normal.
I've never had a problem with the rod itself, just with a couple of necks that never seemed to stop moving.
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Can't explain it, Uwe. I've had a half-dozen Fenders and Fender-style basses with no truss rod nut problems. Go figure. :-\
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i have had about 15 pre 1975 fender basses in my life and never any trouble. maybe it's the new stuff. would not be surprising at all.
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Sorry to hear Uwe. I'm with nofi though, pre '75 basses are great.
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6 of them here, 58 to 65. Not a problem with any of them.This does not help you, I know.
Sounds to me like more bad luck than anything.
Have you tried "helping" the neck along? When tightening the rod, apply downward pressure on the end of the headstock. And of course, vice-versa.
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So yours turn with ease and that is how it should be on a Fender? Then that is good to know in case someone wants to talk me into "that this is normal".
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My Jazz was a doddle - no problems (okay, it is a Squier) - swopped the neck for a fretless Mightie-Mite - ditto...
Would it shock people if I said that the PC's truss-rod has never been touched since I've owned her... er, sorry, not a Fender...
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So yours turn with ease and that is how it should be on a Fender? Then that is good to know in case someone wants to talk me into "that this is normal".
No it's definitely not normal, don't let anyone tell you that. OTOH I wouldn't say "with ease" except for the headstock end adjustment on some 70s models.
It has nothing to do with not being vintage -- I haven't had a problem adjusting newer or older.
You could try being less obsessive about adjusting them so often. Even so, there's something wrong with this one.
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My 50th Anniversary Jazz and my American Standard Jazz V have some pretty tight truss rods, as did my G&L L2500 which eventually stripped and the neck was replaced under warranty. I like to set my necks as true as possible and use my saddles for action adjustment, which I'm pretty sure is higher than most of you guys would like. The hex head knob adjustment tool is useless and, as you've discovered, good for only gouging out your pickguard on its edges. Normal hex keys work much better. Odd that you mention your Stingray as having an easy adjusting neck. I couldn't turn the knob on mine if I had to, but I've not had any need to either. It's still on its factory setup from 11 years ago.
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i have had about 15 pre 1975 fender basses in my life and never any trouble. maybe it's the new stuff. would not be surprising at all.
My only Fender a 1976 works fine... in fact I have only adjusted the neck twice in the time that I have owned it... since 1976!
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My 74 Jazz had a neck adjustment over 20 years ago and hasn't been touched since as well. Most of my other basses get little tweaks from time to time this bass just doesnt need the attention.
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Do not use ball end wrenches, they chew up hex head adjusters as you have found. There should be no reason to adjust a neck seasonally unless you live without the modern conveniences of air con and heating which I doubt. I'm sure the variation of temperature and humidity are minimal wherever you keep your basses. You have a bad neck, which doesn't seem to be uncommon from Fender USA these days.
Was the 'socket screw' more than 3-4mm recessed into the neck when it froze? If so you may have run out of thread on the rod. The wood surrounding the rod sometimes compresses causing that problem but it usually takes years and a lot of adjustments (which also would indicate a problem neck). The solution can be adding a washer to get some thread back.
Unfortunately you have a 'vintage style' bass with it's difficult neck adjuster access without the reliability of an actual vintage instrument.
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If Leo had meant us to adjust our truss rods, he'd have put the hole somewhere where you can get tools into it.
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Uwe, your bass tr has a problem. Until a month ago, also owned an american standard P5, a 51 RI, and a Tony Franklin fretless. All worked correctly.
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If Leo had meant us to adjust our truss rods, he'd have put the hole somewhere where you can get tools into it.
IIRC, I think he did. The 'Bullet' trussrod was his idea, or at least was developed while he still owned Fender. MM and G&L have them. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong
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We have no air conditioning (it's extremely rare to have it in Germany outside of business space and cars), live under the roof (with high ceilings though) and have very effective floor heating. So you do notice seasonal changes quite a bit, necks get spikey in winter as the fretends stick out etc. In Germany, summer tends to be rainy and humid, winters dry and cold.
I distrusted that friggin Fender ballend tool from day one, just didn't look to me like you could get real torque with it. And sure enough you didn't. >:( I don't have issues with adjusting "from behind" (no, Mark, don't say anything now!) and see the advantages in headstock stability, but Musicman should be eternally thanked for that wheel idea!
I hasten to add that on my 20 year+ basses, I adjust the neck much more seldom. As wood grows older it seems to lose the capability of losing and gaining humidity to the extent of younger, fresher wood. Generally, after 10 years or so, my basses tend to settle in.
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Probably more to do with humidity variation than temperature. I forgot about your lack of need of air conditioning, I only go in January.
That 'no ball end' thing is another tip from Dan Erlewine.
Necks do seem to settle in after a few years. I haven't adjusted the neck of my '60 EBO since around 1970 and it has 45-105s on it.
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Been a while since I've done this, but it seems like I would take the pickguard off, and use a flathead screw driver to turn the nut. As big a one as would go into the neck opening without touching the sides.
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The new Fenders don't have the slotted screw anymore but a hex (allen) socket. And a comparatively small one at that.
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Maybe its an omen Uwe, that's screaming at you "you don't belong to the f****r world"! :P
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been playing fenders since 72. stripped a few ends peices (easy to replace) but never had one freeze up or such. some 70's necks were a mess though....
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Local player just brought ma a Japanese P bass with a TR issue. Now, thia guy sweats BUCKETS of evidently very toxic elements.... The rod was rusted in place! Couldn'budge it with any common efforts. Ended up removing it, putting it on the wood vise at the end of my bench. Then with the beefiest flat head I have, and the largest visegrip I have, and two separate applications of some loosening stuff I found in the cabinet, I got her to turn ( after waiting 45 minutes or so)
Now it's as straight as can be. Goes to show you. I was almost ready to make him a new neck!
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I think the real culprit is the WOOD. Fender apparantly can't get a hold of good quality properly seasoned maple anymore. I've been buying, selling, and repairing guitars and basses since 1974. I haven't seen more than a handful of Fender necks (guitars included!) made in the last 25 years that didn't have to have the truss rod maxed out in order to get the neck where it should be.
The "BiFlex" truss rod Fender's used on American Standards and some other models (adjusts at the headstock through the walnut plug) since 1983 or so is pretty much a joke. If the Allen sockey ever needs to be replaced, it's a nightmare instead of a simple job because it's a captive nut. The purpose of the BiFlex rod is to be able to adjust out backbow should it arise. I haven't seen a back bowed Fender neck since the advent of the BiFlex truss rod, why they continue to implement it is a mystery to me.
On Custom Shop Fenders with vintage style truss rods, I've seen a lot of quarter sawn necks...mostly basses, but some guitar too. While there's nothing innately wrong with a quarter sawn neck (you pretty much have use it when using a softer wood like mahogany) Fender never used quarter sawn necks until relatively recently. The reason is STRENGTH. I don't think they can find good enough quality maple for half sawn wood to hold up, especially on basses. The quarter sawn wood has a "butcher block" look, since the silk of the grain is on the front of the headstock and back of the neck that I personally don't care for.
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No one else seems to have a problem getting properly aged maple, it's not in short supply at all. I find it hard to believe that Fender would. Repairmen I've talked to over the years say Fenders don't have an unusual amount of neck or truss rod problems.
Quartersawn is not stronger than flatsawn. Either type has its advantages and disadvantages.
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I have 3 'Fender Genuine Replacement ' necks, the kind that came in velvet bags with those words laser etched into the back of the headstock with build stickers, name stamps, date and correct headstock decals. 2 '57 P and 1 '61 J.
They require more adjusting than any other necks I own and the Jazz needed washers to get some adjustment back after bottoming out on the threads. Dates are around 2002.
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No one else seems to have a problem getting properly aged maple, it's not in short supply at all. I find it hard to believe that Fender would. Repairmen I've talked to over the years say Fenders don't have an unusual amount of neck or truss rod problems.
Quartersawn is not stronger than flatsawn. Either type has its advantages and disadvantages.
If properly seasioned maple is not in sort supply, then it might be the quality of the maple itself. Before the '70s, it was probably a lot of old growth wood, possibly air dried naturally over a period of years. After that, the wood isn't old growth and is kiln dried...that's a big difference.
I beg to differ about 1/4 sawn not being stronger than flat sawn. The grain's standing on end an a 1/4 sawn neck, MUCH stronger. Over the years, no. Fender necks are pretty good before the late '60s, then you see some necks with "ski slopes" or Rising Tongue, as Dan Erlewine calls it. Of course, the rod doesn't do anything that far up the neck anyway, so it's not a truss rod issue.
Almost every newer Fender neck I see with a vintage style truss rod at the body adjuster requires spacers because the rod has to be quite tight.
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JBT, I share your opinion on this, especially kiln drying vs. air drying. The Menominee Indians have been sustainably growing hard maple for over since 1908. The major change in production has been the drying process which stresses the green lumber when done too quickly.
I was also taught that quartersawn wood is more resistant to warping with changes in moisture as well as bringing out the figure in maple and white oak.
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If properly seasioned maple is not in sort supply, then it might be the quality of the maple itself. Before the '70s, it was probably a lot of old growth wood, possibly air dried naturally over a period of years. After that, the wood isn't old growth and is kiln dried...that's a big difference.
I beg to differ about 1/4 sawn not being stronger than flat sawn. The grain's standing on end an a 1/4 sawn neck, MUCH stronger. Over the years, no. Fender necks are pretty good before the late '60s, then you see some necks with "ski slopes" or Rising Tongue, as Dan Erlewine calls it. Of course, the rod doesn't do anything that far up the neck anyway, so it's not a truss rod issue.
Almost every newer Fender neck I see with a vintage style truss rod at the body adjuster requires spacers because the rod has to be quite tight.
First, you're assuming your experiences apply to all Fenders. That's no more valid than if I assumed that no Fender necks ever had problems because I've never had one with a problem (and I bought my first one 49 years ago). Now, if we had a survey of authorized Fender dealers who do their own in-house repairs, and if they reported more Fender necks coming back for warranty problems than other brands, then there would be a known problem.
Fender never used old growth wood or air dried wood. You would have to go back to the 1920s or earlier to find either in large commercial quantities.
AFAIK most repair experts think ski-slope neck is a truss rod issue coming from years of the traditional (Gibson design) truss rod holding the neck fibers in compression for years. It's certainly not limited to Fender or to maple, and to say it didn't appear until the late 60s is just plain wrong.
Flatsawn vs. quartersawn: wood properties aren't subject to debate. You should download the Forest Products Laboratory (USDA) Wood Handbook: Wood As An Engineering Material (link (http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100&header_id=p)), especially chapters 3, 4 and 5. Wood strength tests are based on the type and direction of force applied, usually in relation to the grain direction, regardless of whether the wood is flatsawn or quartersawn.
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Commercial kiln drying used to be a much slower process than it is today. I believe it was less likely to 'case harden' wood than modern techniques.
The Wood Handbook ,quote, "Presents properties of wood and wood-based products of particular concern to the architect and engineer." Basically construction timber.
I believe this is as pertinent to the discussion of plainsawn vs. flatsawn wood, specifically how it relates to warping and cupping.
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1693.pdf
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First, you're assuming your experiences apply to all Fenders. That's no more valid than if I assumed that no Fender necks ever had problems because I've never had one with a problem (and I bought my first one 49 years ago). Now, if we had a survey of authorized Fender dealers who do their own in-house repairs, and if they reported more Fender necks coming back for warranty problems than other brands, then there would be a known problem.
Fender never used old growth wood or air dried wood. You would have to go back to the 1920s or earlier to find either in large commercial quantities.
AFAIK most repair experts think ski-slope neck is a truss rod issue coming from years of the traditional (Gibson design) truss rod holding the neck fibers in compression for years. It's certainly not limited to Fender or to maple, and to say it didn't appear until the late 60s is just plain wrong.
Flatsawn vs. quartersawn: wood properties aren't subject to debate. You should download the Forest Products Laboratory (USDA) Wood Handbook: Wood As An Engineering Material (link (http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100&header_id=p)), especially chapters 3, 4 and 5. Wood strength tests are based on the type and direction of force applied, usually in relation to the grain direction, regardless of whether the wood is flatsawn or quartersawn.
No, I'm just saying that I've seen enough Fender bass necks with this problem over the last 37 years to see a patterns. By no means is it only late '60s on Fenders that can exhibit Rising Tongue, or are older basses exempt. However, I have noted more neck problems and QC issues in general on CBS era Fenders, particularly 70s ones. I've found that '50s maple Fender bass necks rarely seem to exhibit warpage issues, although they can be prone to pulled up headstocks due to the large amount of wood scooped out behind the nut in that era. A friens of mine still owns a 1970 Jazz Bass neck with a pronoiunced ski slope...he says it was like that when he first bought it but never bothered to return it, altough it's unplayable. It's still new looking, but useless...Re 1/4 sawn vs. flat sawn, take a 2x4 and put it between 2 chairs. Stand on it with the grain flat and then try it with the grain on end. Which is more flexible? Not a perfect test, but you'll get the idea.
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"Ski Slope" isn't thought of as a truss rod problem, since the rod has the most effect from the nut to the 7th fret or so, but early Music Man literature boasts of a new improved truss rod design, that IIRC attemps to prevent this.
By the way, I'm not trying to impugn Fender basses in any way. I'm a huge fan of them and own 4 original '60s Jazz Basses, a sunburst slab board 1962 I've owned since 1993, a sunburst 1964 I've owned since '81, and Candy Apple Red and Olympic White '65s. Since 1974, I've owned more Fender basses than I can count. I like Gibsons and Rics as well, but at the end of the day There Are Fender Basses And There Are Other Basses...
However, I do know that '50s and '60s Fenders are far superior to ones from the late '60s on. I've just seen too many bad '70s Fenders and too many incredible Pre-CBS ones to not know that to be the truth. There are exceptions but in general, that has been my experience.
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Commercial kiln drying used to be a much slower process than it is today. I believe it was less likely to 'case harden' wood than modern techniques.
The Wood Handbook ,quote, "Presents properties of wood and wood-based products of particular concern to the architect and engineer." Basically construction timber.
I believe this is as pertinent to the discussion of plainsawn vs. flatsawn wood, specifically how it relates to warping and cupping.
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/publications/pbfiles/PB1693.pdf
True, the Wood Handbook is about all woods used in engineering and architecture. But the properties don't change if you use them for guitarmaking.
That's a good description of the differences, an expansion of what's in the Wood Handbook.
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Re 1/4 sawn vs. flat sawn, take a 2x4 and put it between 2 chairs. Stand on it with the grain flat and then try it with the grain on end. Which is more flexible? Not a perfect test, but you'll get the idea.
That has nothing to do with flatsawn vs. quartersawn. No matter what you may read on guitar forums, turning a flatsawn board on end does not make it quartersawn. You can't change the way it was cut from a tree. It's still a flatsawn board on edge.
And the reason it's stiffer is because any beam in 2x4 orientation (deeper than wide) is stiffer than a 4x2 beam when the load comes from above. The same thing would happen if you did the same test using a quartersawn 2x4.
A guitar neck doesn't have that kind of load anyway. It's an overhanging beam with force applied at the ends.
Re the other stuff, we're just going in circles. I've personally seen way more older guitars with rising tongue than newer. The professional repairman who I respect most thinks that the truss rod design is most responsible.
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"I've personally seen way more older guitars with rising tongue than newer. The professional repairman who I respect most thinks that the truss rod design is most responsible."
+1 My luthier says so too.
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"I've personally seen way more older guitars with rising tongue than newer. The professional repairman who I respect most thinks that the truss rod design is most responsible."
+1 My luthier says so too.
I have seen more Rising Tongue on older (as in late '60s-'70s) than newer...as I mentioned, I haven't seen it as much on '50s-mid '60s guitars, but I have seen some.
What IS more prevalent on newer guitars as I was saying, is bowed necks...with way too much relief and super tight or even maxed out truss rods. The '50s-'60s Fenders I've owned and currently own require very little tension on the truss rods to get the necks where they should be.
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While I DO have some Fender basses, I admit that I find the body end truss adjustment a royal pain in the ass and a silly design. But I also can say that I've never had to tweak any of them four times a year. I have encountered a stiff adjustment nut on occasion and even one neck that was maxed out on the adjustment but still playable...but most necks have been OK.
Uwe....could it be the Fenders that enter your "Casa De Gibson" become SO immediately terrified and intimidated upon seeing the mass of Gibsons that they simply freeze like deers in a headlight, becoming unable to be adjusted?
Or maybe they are just faking it, so you take them back to the store to get away from the gang of Gibbys?
Sounds like intimidation.
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Every Fender I have has a nice stable neck including the Squier Bronco. My '63 has had one adjustment in 30+ years. My 2000 MIM Jazz has never needed an adjustment.
Maybe my basses are old and tired. Yes, like Steve Martin in The Jerk, I need nice FRESH basses!
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You guys just live in more humid climates than I do, I admire you. (When I lived in Africa, the 90% humidity never bothered me and these days it would even be good for myy allergic asthma!)
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You gus just live in more humid climates than I do, I admire you. (When I lived in Africa, the 90% humidity never bothered me and these days it would even be good for myy allergic asthma!)t
I think it's lack of humidity. I live at 5,000 feet in Colorado and humiditt runs low all year.
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You gus just live in more humid climates than I do, I admire you. (When I lived in Africa, the 90% humidity never bothered me and these days it would even be good for myy allergic asthma!)
I thought Deutchland was kinda "wet" country, falsch?
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We have enough rain in summer, but the last few winters have been very dry and cold. That said, rain has been scarce this spring so far too and nature is showing it too.
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This is totally unscientific but...I have only had the ski slope effect on Jazzes...I have never thought of it as a CBS, etc problem...I even had a Japanese jazz with it. I always thought it was peculiar to the jazz bass. Never had a Precision with the problem.
I do have a precision with the "rubber neck" problem. I just feed it more washers.
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This is totally unscientific but...I have only had the ski slope effect on Jazzes...I have never thought of it as a CBS, etc problem...I even had a Japanese jazz with it. I always thought it was peculiar to the jazz bass. Never had a Precision with the problem.
I do have a precision with the "rubber neck" problem. I just feed it more washers.
I've seen it on just as many P-basses as J-basses. Doesn't make sense since P and J necks only differ in width at the nut...by the time it tapers to the "ski slope" area, they're about the same.
Yeah, I've had rubber neck basses, Fenders AND Gibsons. They usually aren't the best sounding instruments due to the neck's unstiffness.
If you have to keep feeding that neck washers, it's a problem neck. Eventually it'll get to the point where it's not going to work any more.
BTW, I've never been able to find washers with an outside diameter and hole that fits for this purpose, the diameter hole that would fit the truss rod isn't the hole that comes with that size washer. It's better to make a correct size spacer out of brass rather than stacks of 1/32" thick washers anyway.
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Tell me more about rubber necks!!! I've had them from Rickenbacker, Fender and Gibson. And I have real stiffers where the truss rod needs to be released in full from Gibson and WAL. Those necks are mostly (with the exception of a fretless LP DeLuxe I have which has a maho neck) three-ply maple necks with two thin stripes of another wood sandwiched in between. Seems to be a good recipe for stiffness. But ultra-stiffness is not necessarily a good thing, it can lead a bass to sound dead. Which is a reason why not everyone cares for those biflex trussrods (which you don't really need on a bass anyway). Or why the Kramer alu necks did not conquer the world.
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Tell me more about rubber necks!!! I've had them from Rickenbacker, Fender and Gibson. And I have real stiffers where the truss rod needs to be released in full from Gibson and WAL. Those necks are mostly (with the exception of a fretless LP DeLuxe I have which has a maho neck) three-ply maple necks with two thin stripes of another wood sandwiched in between. Seems to be a good recipe for stiffness. But ultra-stiffness is not necessarily a good thing, it can lead a bass to sound dead. Which is a reason why not everyone cares for those biflex trussrods (which you don't really need on a bass anyway). Or why the Kramer alu necks did not conquer the world.
The potential for thread deviance in the above statement is unequaled in my experience with this forum. I bow to the master.
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, SAY NO MORE! :rolleyes:
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Tell me more about rubber necks!!! I've had them from Rickenbacker, Fender and Gibson. And I have real stiffers where the truss rod needs to be released in full from Gibson and WAL. Those necks are mostly (with the exception of a fretless LP DeLuxe I have which has a maho neck) three-ply maple necks with two thin stripes of another wood sandwiched in between. Seems to be a good recipe for stiffness. But ultra-stiffness is not necessarily a good thing, it can lead a bass to sound dead. Which is a reason why not everyone cares for those biflex trussrods (which you don't really need on a bass anyway). Or why the Kramer alu necks did not conquer the world.
Belive it or not, I've seen several aluminum necked basses with starightness issues. (A few Kramers with far too much relief and and a Travis Bean with a back bow!)
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Do not use ball end wrenches, they chew up hex head adjusters as you have found. There should be no reason to adjust a neck seasonally unless you live without the modern conveniences of air con and heating which I doubt. I'm sure the variation of temperature and humidity are minimal wherever you keep your basses. You have a bad neck, which doesn't seem to be uncommon from Fender USA these days.
Was the 'socket screw' more than 3-4mm recessed into the neck when it froze? If so you may have run out of thread on the rod. The wood surrounding the rod sometimes compresses causing that problem but it usually takes years and a lot of adjustments (which also would indicate a problem neck). The solution can be adding a washer to get some thread back.
Unfortunately you have a 'vintage style' bass with it's difficult neck adjuster access without the reliability of an actual vintage instrument.
It's not the temperature so much as the humidity. If you live in a cold climate, you will have drying issues in the winter and possibly bowed necks and/or sharp fret ends. There's no way you can warm 20 degree F. air to 72 F. without drying it out. Humidifiers on the heating system can help, but most people fail to maintain them since the filters are expensive and they're a pain to de-scale.
By the same token, if you live in a really swampy place, like Florida, for instance, you might have backbow problems.
Here in New Jersey the winters are moderately cold and summers are pretty hot and humid. I've found that vintage wood is much more dimensionally stable than newer, which often require seasonal adjustment. I've been advised that any instrument that's not going to be played for 3 months or more should have the strings loosened a fifth in pitch. (Except ones needing little or no truss rod tension.)
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On the whole, a 100 year old piece of air dried wood is going to be no more or less dimensionally stable than the same species and thickness of one year old kiln dried wood. There are differences in individual pieces since no two pieces of wood are the same, but that's not due to age. If "vintage woods" are more stable in your experience, then your experience isn't broad enough.
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I suggest googling 'case hardening kiln drying'. I very much believe that modern techniques of drying wood put stresses on lumber which result in problems that take longer to manifest themselves than earlier practices which involved more time in turning green lumber into dry...and I don't really put much faith in government agencies beholden to corporations looking to make a fast buck which support today's two week or less cycle. Slower is better and kiln drying was a slower process in the past.
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I'm well familiar with case hardening. A casehardened board warps when you cut it. If the warpage were minor enough that you were able to use one in a piece of furniture or an instrument, instead of turning it into pallet grade wood, I've seen no evidence that it would later change dimensions any more or less than an air dried piece or a perfectly kiln dried piece.
I'm also not sure that kiln drying schedules for commercial hardwoods today is much different than when we were young. Construction grade softwoods, definitely.
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I guess it comes down to this:
Are there more necks with problems than in the past and if so, why?
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I guess it comes down to this:
Are there more necks with problems than in the past and if so, why?
I asked Ray Henning about this when I was still in Texas. He's been a Fender dealer and authorized repair center since 1960 (Heart of Texas Music in Austin). He said he sees fewer neck problems today. That's just one shop, but one with broad experience. He's also yet another repairman who will tell you that you're more likely to find ski slope on older necks.
No doubt, though, neck problems can happen with a new instrument.
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From my, uhum, limited experience of a 150 basses or so which I continuously keep alongside each other in the same two environments (my office, fully air-conditioned, and my home, not air-conditioned) and as a trussrod adjustment obsessive I venture forth the following bold statement: Once a neck is older than ten years (the occasional rubber neck candidate excepted), it needs less adjustment than when it is "fresh". That is not to say that younger necks are worse, they just breathe with the climate more, new Gibsons are especially notorious that way, going back an forth the first few years. It's not an issue as long as the trussrod works easily both ways. It does become one when the trussrod is less than willing or less than accessible. On my basses thirty years older and more I only adjust necks - if at all - every couple of years (and not always tighter either). When those basses were young I would have probably felt compelled to adjust them more often too, I'm not saying that the wood was better then, just that it is older today just as today's wood will be three decades from now too.
I used to think that older wood lost the ability to absorb and lose humidity more than younger wood, but Dave, that old owl of scientific certainty, will no doubt immerdiately pounce on me for that, where is my helmet ... :-X :-X :-X
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5124/5278933117_f1eb17d8b5.jpg)
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fwiw
I have noticed that newer basses require frequent adjustments, and older one--yes 10 years sounds about right...are more stable.
I like them to get to the point where you don't have to fool with them.
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My experience has been the opposite, although it's not with 150 instruments.
Moisture exchange is only one issue, and that's more of a matter of finish thickness than age or type. Consider that you have 150-200 lbs. of string tension on that neck and a truss rod counteracting it. With the traditional truss rod design, that leads to crushed fibers, which leads to s-curves and a tendency to take a permanent set.
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My experience has been the opposite, although it's not with 150 instruments.
Moisture exchange is only one issue, and that's more of a matter of finish thickness than age or type. Consider that you have 150-200 lbs. of string tension on that neck and a truss rod counteracting it. With the traditional truss rod design, that leads to crushed fibers, which leads to s-curves and a tendency to take a permanent set.
One would think that a finished neck would be more stable, but '50s and '60s Fenders with basically no finish left on the back of the neck are usually among the most stable necks...
Maybe on a newer instrument.
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One would think that a finished neck would be more stable, but '50s and '60s Fenders with basically no finish left on the back of the neck are usually among the most stable necks...
Maybe on a newer instrument.
Again, I've seen no real evidence to support that. It runs counter to what I've read from Dan Erlewine, Frank Ford et al over the years.
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In my experience with my own instruments, it takes 20 to 25 years for the neck to completely stabilize. Before they reach that age, I find myself adjusting the rod twice a year. Ebony boards on a maple neck are the worst for seasonal changes, I think. Most stable would probably be maple necks without a seperate fretboard.
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In my experience with my own instruments, it takes 20 to 25 years for the neck to completely stabilize. Before they reach that age, I find myself adjusting the rod twice a year. Ebony boards on a maple neck are the worst for seasonal changes, I think. Most stable would probably be maple necks without a seperate fretboard.
My personal experience supports this theory. My Cargill has an ebony board on a laminated maple neck and one of my Jazz's has a one piece maple neck.
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Wood doesn't stabilize by itself after years. Whether it's a guitar or a coffee table, a piece that's prone to noticeable movement will always be prone to it.
OTOH I realize that in the world of vintage guitar myths, the laws of physics don't apply. :-X
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I'll put it down to coincidence then ;) :)
I once had a studio owner get annoyed at me because I used to move the partitions in a particular rehearsal room diagonaly across one of the corners of the room. I did this because after a lot of rehearsals and moving my amp into different positions I found that the sound of my bass in that room was best when I did this. Normally I'm a setup and go kinda guy but this room just had a bad sound for bass players regardless which band and style of music was played in it.
The owner spent weeks arguing with me in terms of physics that I wasn't hearing what I was hearing. Ultimately I guess most of us most of the time will side with personal experience over scientific explanation. Rightly or wrongly.
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I second the ebony board thing. They are my porcupine candidates with the fretends eating themselves out of the ebony winter for winter. Again, it's something that dies down as a bass reaches seniority.
"The laws of physics don't apply ..." - LOL - Dave, you doubting Thomas, what can the Holy Vintage Inquisition do to reinstill some faith in you?! ! - )
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"The laws of physics don't apply ..." - LOL - Dave, you doubting Thomas, what can the Holy Vintage Inquisition do to reinstill some faith in you?! ! - )
I swear, if I made a guitar out of some of the solid hardwoods in my kitchen, that wood would suddenly be endowed with magical vintage qualities. It would stop its seasonal movement and start "breathing", it would become drier and lighter and have superior tonal qualities.
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I swear, if I made a guitar out of some of the solid hardwoods in my kitchen, that wood would suddenly be endowed with magical vintage qualities. It would stop its seasonal movement and start "breathing", it would become drier and lighter and have superior tonal qualities.
Another factor with necks made of maple is how long the rough cut neck blanks are allowed to sit before final shaping.
Many years ago, Steve Hayes, a local luthier highly knowledgeble about woodworking told me that you can build a mahogany neck in a day but maple necks need to sit for at least 6 months in order for the stresses in the wood to work out. Otherwise, the neck will move after it's finished.
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Mahogany is more stable than maple but I wouldn't make a mahogany neck right away either. You never know what will happen after you start routing or shaping a piece of wood. It could be air dried for 30 years and look like it's perfectly straight grained and then routing it could release some internal stress you had no way of knowing was there.
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Back to the original topic - it's coming back today, Fender Deutschland have swapped the neck as is common with these, errrm, bolt-on instruments so I've heard.
I was missing it already too.
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Just standard maintenance! ;D
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You mean if I order now, I don't get just one installed neck, but two uninstalled replacement necks and a special knife for cutting tomatos? Yousy!!!
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You mean if I order now, I don't get just one installed neck, but two uninstalled replacement necks and a special knife for cutting tomatos? Yousy!!!
But wait, there's MORE...!
http://www.ronco.com/index.aspx
(http://www.ronco.com/_images/_rollover/mainknifeadbogo.jpg)
OR...you would like maybe a nice Pocket Fisherman with that??
(http://www.ronco.com/_images/_rollover/mainpocketad.jpg)
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way back in the eighties my son bought a set of ginzu(sp) knives as a joke. they are still sharp today without ever being sharpened. i guess this means anything can happen.
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way back in the eighties my son bought a set of ginzu(sp) knives as a joke. they are still sharp today without ever being sharpened. i guess this means anything can happen.
And you use them in the kitchen so daves harwood kitchenette travel bass might be lighter than air. ;)
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Well, it's back. New neck and all, action is perfect, no need to tweak the trussrod sofar ... but you all know me!!!!
Of course, my mind is playing tricks on me already and I believe to hear that the original neck sounded a tad bit better ... Out, demons, out!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce-v2EyG52Y
Are Edgar Broughton clips political? :sad: :sad: :sad:
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Resist your urge to fiddle with it!
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You mean it's some kind of replacement action for masturbation?
Darn, I should have known.
Circumcision is supposed to help?
(http://susanne-illhardt.com/wp-content/uploads/Struwwelpeter.png)
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Well, it's back. New neck and all, action is perfect, no need to tweak the trussrod sofar ... but you all know me!!!!
Of course, my mind is playing tricks on me already and I believe to hear that the original neck sounded a tad bit better ... Out, demons, out!!!!
It ain't broke, so don't mess widdit. With any luck it will be nice and stable and you won't need to.
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Day 3 and I still haven't inserted the wrench ... some cheering of you guys would be in order.
"My name is Uwe and this is my third truss rod adjustment free day."
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We'll be your support group.