The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: Dave W on September 27, 2018, 01:45:20 PM
-
Jake brought it up here last October: http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=10811.0 but there were no sound samples available. I emailed Jerry at the time and he had nothing.
Last night I noticed an SG and EB Bass Club thread at Talkbass, checked out the most recent pages, and a member there recently posted sound samples. He has a 32" scale neck mounted on an Epi EB-0 body. He installed the Unmudbucker in the neck position, and he installed a (mudbucker-sized) TB-Plus from a recent SG Bass in the middle position.
Here's the sound sample mp3: http://www.chris-todd.net/tunes/EB0_Sentell_and_TBPlus.mp3
What you'll hear, in order:
1. Fingerstyle, Sentell Unmudbucker at the neck
2. Fingerstyle, both the Sentell and the Gibson TBPlus in the middle position
3. Fingerstyle, Gibson TBPlus
4. Pick, Sentell
5. Pick, both
6. Pick, Gibson
Opinions? I think the Sentell sounds better than the TB-Plus Gibson, and more defined, especially considering that the Sentell is right at the end of the neck.
-
The Sentell sounded brighter than I'd care for on it's own, especially when played with a pick. The TB+ had meatier mids. They blended together nicely.
-
Favourable first impression on my end.
What I'm really curious about is how the Unmudbucker would sound in the bridge position, and how it would mix with a real Mudbucker in the neck...
-
I like the blended tones best, but that's true of most basses for me.
-
Go here (https://www.talkbass.com/threads/sg-eb-bass-club.1118100/page-98#post-21570374) and scroll down to see the Unmudbucker mounted in his bass. I'm not sure I could get used to that look! And if you have a '70 or later EB-0/EB-3, you'd see the much larger cavity with the corner screws of the cover being part of the height adjusting mechanism, instead of screwing directly into the wood.
-
Definitely a different look. Is that a Badbird II on that guys bass?
-
Definitely a different look. Is that a Badbird II on that guys bass?
Sure looks like it.
-
From what I can from the sound samples ,the top end is less "clicky" than a Model one while the bass end is nice and full .It would be instructive to compare the low end extension to a Mudbucker though.
-
Go here (https://www.talkbass.com/threads/sg-eb-bass-club.1118100/page-98#post-21570374) and scroll down to see the Unmudbucker mounted in his bass. I'm not sure I could get used to that look! And if you have a '70 or later EB-0/EB-3, you'd see the much larger cavity with the corner screws of the cover being part of the height adjusting mechanism, instead of screwing directly into the wood.
I had asked Jerry about building a pickup in an Epi MudBucker housing and he was willing to do that. It would have knocked a few bucks of the cost to send him the parts. I don't think I could get past the look of the clear pickup cover.
-
The clear cover must be Jerry's way of keeping the cost in line. He can buy ready made covers for most pickup styles but not for a mudbucker and a few others. He probably figures there's not enough market (yet) to justify the setup costs fro a run of chrome covers.
-
Well, if someone cant get past the clear look, he could always paint it black from the inside to avoid scratches etc.
-
Well, if someone cant get past the clear look, he could always paint it black from the inside to avoid scratches etc.
There's chrome paint too.
-
"Also available in smoky transparent"
-
"Also available in smoky transparent"
That's still transparent.
Even if he offered it in chromed plastic it's still not going to look like an original, not with those big alnico polepieces. Not that I care.
If I wanted to replace my mudbucker, I'd just choose a pickup that would fit in the cavity (or require so little alteration that the original could be put back without any alteration showing). Then I'd make a pickup surround ring to cover any visible part of the cavity.
-
Huh. Not sure I'm into it; too unmudbuckery. Better fingerstyle, but the TBplus was better with a pick; really surprised by the Sentell's lack of oomph actually.
-
Huh. Not sure I'm into it; too unmudbuckery. Better fingerstyle, but the TBplus was better with a pick; really surprised by the Sentell's lack of oomph actually.
I think being unmudbuckery is the general idea. You obviously think he's achieved that goal. ;D
-
I was hoping he just took the edge off vs wound up a polar opposite beast. Imagine that wussy thing with the choke/baroitone switch on; useless.
-
I was hoping he just took the edge off vs wound up a polar opposite beast.
I've thought about having mine partially unwound, or rewound with the same gauge wire but fewer winds.
-
Good Idea.I wonder what the sweet spot would be for percentage of turns? it seems that 50% is too much.
-
How about a treble-bleed capacitor to un-mud a Sidewinder? Like the evil cap on pre-'85 Rics. Wouldn't that work?
-
How about a treble-bleed capacitor to un-mud a Sidewinder? Like the evil cap on pre-'85 Rics. Wouldn't that work?
I've wondered what would happen if you put a cap in series between the two coils of a humbucker. You get the low end of only one coil, but the upper mids and treble of both coils. A sorta 'half mud' setup.
The Sentell pickup is odd. I thought the plastic cover was just the thing they shipped it on. I didn't realise it was meant to be the cover on the bass as well. I don't like the naked coil look. :-[
-
Good Idea.I wonder what the sweet spot would be for percentage of turns? it seems that 50% is too much.
That's the problem, how to know when to stop.
How about a treble-bleed capacitor to un-mud a Sidewinder? Like the evil cap on pre-'85 Rics. Wouldn't that work?
It wouldn't help much b/c you have to have enough treble to pass to have a viable pickup. There's not much there.
The best easy mod to the stock wiring is to remove the .010 cap which bleeds most of the treble to ground. It doesn't stop the distortion but it helps the frequency response.
-
I've wondered what would happen if you put a cap in series between the two coils of a humbucker. You get the low end of only one coil, but the upper mids and treble of both coils. A sorta 'half mud' setup.
....
That's an interesting thought. I'll ask a local expert what he thinks.
-
That's an interesting thought. I'll ask a local expert what he thinks.
"No dice".
(https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/53366/image.jpg)
-
That is the idea behind the choke, except that is a 2nd order filter (-12 db per octave - I forget the corner frequency but I calculated it once ages ago) vs a single cap which would be a less aggressive 1st order filter (-6 db per octave). You only need that hard to find choke coil for the 2nd order filter, so you could easily replace it woith a cap tuned to were it works better for you. Off the top of me head aiming for somewhere in the 100-200 Hz range so that you'e 12ish db down as regards the fundamental of Low E , but you could adjust to taste. You could even put that on a pot - switch from a tone control per pup to master treble and bass tone controls (like a Triumph) and leave the choke circuit as is. In that latter case I would suggest a more aggressive cut because you could dial it back.
Incidentally, 2nd order filters also invert the phase of the signal so that may be better or worse for you when using both pups on an EB3 or EB2D.
-
For what its worth i used to have a switchable 250 pf cap to ground where the coils join on my mudbucker,it made a small un woofing contribution.
-
I've thought about having mine partially unwound, or rewound with the same gauge wire but fewer winds.
Both suggestions work fine. I never saw the point of struggeling to redesign the mudbucker, just fewer windings if you find the low end to crazy. I find about 12Kohm to 20Kohm output to be fine.
Good Idea.I wonder what the sweet spot would be for percentage of turns? it seems that 50% is too much.
Not really, the lowest output mud rewind I did was matching the output of a 70's P pickup. Think I posted ealier here, can't remember how many turns but I think it was 11 or 12 Kohhms. Equally blended on a '74 P, they have the same volume but the mud still has good 'gibson' sound - but more bite and treble. It was a late 70's unit with ceramic magnets, but still..
-
It's never been about having too much low end, it's about having low end that you can run without distorting. Too much distortion and you wind up with less low end.
I love my EB-0, the weight, balance, etc., everything else works great for me. I'll never sell it. But I'd like more clarity. If I don't have the mudbucker unwound or rewound, I'll probably put a different pickup in. Not any of the ones that are a drop-in fit.
-
If I don't have the mudbucker unwound or rewound, I'll probably put a different pickup in. Not any of the ones that are a drop-in fit.
That was more or less my point, both unwinding and rewinding mudbuckers give great results so I don't see the point of all the replacement muds - if you have a gibson pickup to begin with.
Unless you want it to look all modern and fancy or sound like a J or P of course :-X
-
That was more or less my point, both unwinding and rewinding mudbuckers give great results so I don't see the point of all the replacement muds - if you have a gibson pickup to begin with.
Unless you want it to look all modern and fancy or sound like a J or P of course :-X
I have nothing against Js and Ps but I wouldn't want my EB-0 to sound like either one. :)
-
I had thought of converting the tone control on a EB0 to progressively adding an earth to the centre junction of the 2 coils, that way you would be dialing the sound more towards single coil as it went.Never got around to trying it though.
-
Would it work to wind it similar to a Hobbit pickup (with 8 wires coming out of it) & add a three position switch to it?
-
Like so you could have (e.g. only 2 pos vs 3) full mud and underwound? Sure. Bit of a delicate job, that, but certainly possible. The more taps, the more difficult (expensive). Dunno who would agree to do it, but possible.
Grog's progressive bleed to ground idea makes me worry about hum; those are huge coils. Wasn't there someone here who actually tried coil tapping a mudbucker?
-
I don't know what any of those things might wind up sounding like, and I don't want my mudbucker to be the guinea pig. :)
Grog's comment about Hobbit wiring jogged my memory. The Hobbit is wound with much thicker wire. The Curtis Novak Fatbucker (mudbucker replacement) also uses thicker wire. But I don't particularly like the sound of it. Not bad, but not something I'd spend over $200 on. He also makes a couple of Darkstar versions to fit a mudbucker rout but I've never cared for that sound.
-
Like so you could have (e.g. only 2 pos vs 3) full mud and underwound? Sure. Bit of a delicate job, that, but certainly possible. The more taps, the more difficult (expensive). Dunno who would agree to do it, but possible.
Grog's progressive bleed to ground idea makes me worry about hum; those are huge coils. Wasn't there someone here who actually tried coil tapping a mudbucker?
Yes, coil tapped one for the '58 explorer bass I built. Not sure if I posted, had so many projects at a certain point. I did do Insta posts of it. It works, but I don't think I ever really needed to switch between these different textures - when I do coil taps for experiment I nearly always ditch the switch (!) when I'm certain of wich position is best sounding. A slightly unwound (or as Dave pointed out, wound with thicker wire/more turns) works like a charm and that's all it takes. It's great as a single too, one coil earthed, but yes it hums and needs extra shielding.
Adding a coil tap only adds about 45 seconds to the winding process; solder a small wire on, tape it or nailpolish it, secure the wire with tape - and off you go. But setting up the machine for mudbucker and actually winding it does take much more time than a strat singlecoil!
-
I don't know what any of those things might wind up sounding like, and I don't want my mudbucker to be the guinea pig. :)
The Curtis Novak Fatbucker (mudbucker replacement) also uses thicker wire. But I don't particularly like the sound of it. Not bad, but not something I'd spend over $200 on. He also makes a couple of Darkstar versions to fit a mudbucker rout but I've never cared for that sound.
Speaking of Novak, has anyone tried this one or found soundclips?: http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-BSx2.shtml (http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-BSx2.shtml)
I'd say it's expensive (almost to the point of silly) for one pickup but there might be some nice options for those who like the Bisonics.
-
Speaking of Novak, has anyone tried this one or found soundclips?: http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-BSx2.shtml (http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-BSx2.shtml)
I'd say it's expensive (almost to the point of silly) for one pickup but there might be some nice options for those who like the Bisonics.
Not yet. There is a demo of the EB-BS which has only the single coil Darkstar/Bisonic mode, it doesn't sound good to me at all and it doesn't sound like a Bisonic or Darkstar.
-
The Bisonic/DS have as very specific construction with the dual pole pieces (e.g. those weird butress arms) and huge flat magnet that I do not see at all on the Novak EB-DS, so I would expect it to not really sound similar... except that Novak is very aware of this and actually makes proper Bisonic copies (seems a bit deep to me, as in, wouldn't fit all the basses people put dark stars in but hey, it looks the part):
(http://www.curtisnovak.com/pickups/images/BS-DS-3.jpg)
vs Darkstar (which, from what I recall, I could never tell apart from an actual Bisonic):
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lakland.com%2Fimages%2Fdarkstar.jpg&f=1)
In fact there have been a few iterations of his EB-DS so possibly some sound better/closer than others, like this early one I doubt is anything similar (also maybe just single coil):
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcurtisnovak.com%2Fpickups%2Fimages%2FEB-BS.jpg&f=1)
But now thjey have 2 extra rows of (dummy?) poles:
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcurtisnovak.com%2Fpickups%2Fimages%2FEB-BSx2.jpg&f=1)
-
Hard to know his thinking. If it's not constructed like a Bisonic, it's not going to sound the same.
-
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcurtisnovak.com%2Fpickups%2Fimages%2FEB-BS.jpg&f=1)
But now thjey have 2 extra rows of (dummy?) poles:
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcurtisnovak.com%2Fpickups%2Fimages%2FEB-BSx2.jpg&f=1)
I don'y think they're dummies. That pickup is supposed to be dual Bisonics so you can have a humbucking effect. But like Dave said, those two single coils does'nt look like they are identical construction to a Bisonic so they would'nt sound the same. Maybe at least similar?
-
I don'y think they're dummies. That pickup is supposed to be dual Bisonics so you can have a humbucking effect. But like Dave said, those two single coils does'nt look like they are identical construction to a Bisonic so they would'nt sound the same. Maybe at least similar?
Yes but 3 rows of pole pieces, but only 2 coils means... ?
Also yeah, that was my point; how much like a bisonic can these sound without that specific construction. Similar at best.
-
The middle ones must be dummies, no? There's no windings around them?
-
Yes but 3 rows of pole pieces, but only 2 coils means... ?
Also yeah, that was my point; how much like a bisonic can these sound without that specific construction. Similar at best.
The middle ones must be dummies, no? There's no windings around them?
These are his mudbucker replacements. The middle row of screws are there to attach the chrome cover to the body.
He does make a separate Bisonic style that looks like the original Bisonic construction.
-
Hard to know his thinking. If it's not constructed like a Bisonic, it's not going to sound the same.
Bisonics aren't that unusual, in fairness. The coil in them is quite small, like a Strat pickup really, with two big-but-thin Alnico magnets on the back to power it. Remove the weird and wonderful pole adjustment mechanism and art deco aesthetic, and the thing is basically a four-pole P90 pickup with a slightly unusual laminated core in the middle of the coil.
In a world with ultra modern and efficient amplification and cabs, it makes sense to leave mudbuckers as they are! Let the rest of the rig take the strain.
-
Bisonics aren't that unusual, in fairness. The coil in them is quite small, like a Strat pickup really, with two big-but-thin Alnico magnets on the back to power it. Remove the weird and wonderful pole adjustment mechanism and art deco aesthetic, and the thing is basically a four-pole P90 pickup with a slightly unusual laminated core in the middle of the coil.
In a world with ultra modern and efficient amplification and cabs, it makes sense to leave mudbuckers as they are! Let the rest of the rig take the strain.
That's like saying it's the same, but different! ;D It's not that simple, as I'm sure Rick Turner would tell you.
I'm not a fan, but if someone wants to hide a Bisonic under a mudbucker cover, okay by me.
Even the original Ric horseshoe had a simple small coil. There's a lot more to the tone circuit than that.
-
In a world with ultra modern and efficient amplification and cabs, it makes sense to leave mudbuckers as they are! Let the rest of the rig take the strain.
Have you used one?
Easier said than done. Even with a 10 band graphic EQ out front. It's not about power (bass) power handling; it's about the resonance of the pickup being in that range, so it swamps out all the mids and highs. The only antidote is the built in choke (which could have been more useful if they custom designed/ordered a new part instead of just repurposing 1/2 of the dual inductor part from the Lucille model's Varitone).