The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: westen44 on October 03, 2014, 07:45:36 AM
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When a subject like this comes up, somebody usually says that if you think good music is hard to find, then you're not looking hard enough, etc. To some extent that may be true. But there is a difference between following the music of an established band and following the music of a band faced with an uncertain future--a band that may not even be able to make enough from music to fully focus on it. Like Gene Simmons says in this article, don't quit your day job is good advice.
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/gene-simmons-future-of-rock
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I've seen that before, and I've long said that I feel for any young person wanting to pursue a career in music these days. It's always been a brutal way of life, but now even more. When I wanted to play for a living, we had one thing going for us - available work. There were jobs, and money, for those who could prove their worth and worked hard. If you were willing to travel, there was a LOT of money out there. I don't think that world exists anymore. And for everyone who wants to look at Dave Grohl, and say "see, HE did it...", well he's just one person. For every Grohl, in my day, there were thousands of people who did exactly what he did and failed. I see the remnants of my generation, and see how many people destroyed their lives, and continue to do so, chasing that rainbow. Today's generation can probably multiply those numbers several times over.
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He makes some good points. And I agree with Gweimer, the live music scene that used to be so robust here is maybe 10% of what it once was. Many of the live music clubs are gone as well so the market is much smaller.
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POINT / COUNTER POINT: "ROCK 'N' ROLL AIN'T DEAD" by Dee Snider
Recently, my esteemed colleague, Gene Simmons of Kiss declared that "Rock 'n' Roll is finally dead". Really?
While I have nothing but respect for Gene, he couldn't be further off the mark. Yes, the rock 'n' roll "business model" that helped Kiss (and my band for that matter) achieve fame and fortune is most certainly long dead and buried, but rock 'n' roll is alive and well and thriving on social media, in the streets, and in clubs and concert halls all over the world. And the bands playing it are more genuine and heartfelt than ever because they are in it for one reason: the love of rock 'n' roll.
Spend some time seeing and listening to these incredible young bands and their rabid fans and you will know that rock 'n' roll couldn't be more alive. Yes, it's not the same as it was for the first 50 years of rock’s existence, but the fire definitely still burns.
And it wasn't some 15 year old kid in Saint Paul, Minnesota (to paraphrase Mr. Simmons) who killed the rock 'n' roll goose that laid the platinum egg...it was greedy, big city, record company moguls who made their own velvet noose to hang themselves with. It was they who took advantage of the consumer (and the artist for that matter) and drove them to use an alternative source of music presented to them.
For example, take the bill of goods the record industry sold the mainstream public when introducing the CD format. "We have to charge more for it, because it's a new technology and there's a cost to setting up the infrastructure to produce them." The consumer believed them--it made sense--so they paid a $18.98 list price for a product they had been paying $7.99 list for previously. After all "you can't break a CD with a hammer!" (Remember that?)
But when the infrastructure was in place and paid for in full, and the cost of producing a CD dropped to less than a dollar, did the record companies roll back the list price in kind? Not on your life. They weren't about to do the right thing and cut their increased revenue stream. Those fat cats were enjoying their ill-gotten gains way too much.
So when the general public finally realized they were being had, and the opportunity arose for them to stick it to the man, what did they do? The same thing their Woodstock Nation, baby boomer parents had done when they had their chance...they stuck it and they stuck it good. Does anyone remember Abbey Hoffman's "Steal this Book", the massive selling, early 70’s hippy guide “focused on ways to fight the government, and against corporations in any way possible.” Multiply that by a googolplex.
Is it hard to make it rock 'n' roll? You bet. Always was, always will be. Will rockers make as much money as they did "back in the day"? Probably not. But that won’t stop them, and they'll be motivated by a much more genuine love of the art, and great rock will continue to be produced, played and embraced by rock fans.
So in conclusion: Record company executives killed the old rock 'n' roll business model…and Rock 'n' Roll Ain't Dead!
Dee Snider/ September 10th, 2014
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People illegally downloading music killed rock just as much as the record companies did. Also, I like CDs. I still buy them and have been buying them for years. I suppose it's a weakness and I probably have spent too much. Nevertheless, I have no complaints. Bring on the CDs and I'll buy them. In fact, I just bought George Harrison's "The Apple Years 1968-1975" yesterday. At over a hundred bucks, it was kind of expensive, but well worth it to me. It's very hard to pass up a remastered box set of CDs from an artist you really like. But I guess I'm in the minority and maybe even a freak.
Plus, where are all the great new rock bands that Dee Snyder is talking about? Oh, in the streets, concert halls, and clubs all around the world. I'm sure they'll be easy to find even if 99.9% of the population has never heard of them.
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I like CDs and find them to be a valuable archival medium.
But Snider is 100% RIGHT when he said the public realizes they've been screwed by CD pricing. When I go into a store and see them charging $15 for a CD that comes from a 1960's or 1970's master, I know damn well they paid their production expenses decades ago. What's more, they paid all their marketing expenses as well - and they're not actively marketing a 30-year-old CD any longer.
And we all know that the promotion and marketing are much bigger cost factors for the music company than the production cost.
That should be a $5 CD. But that's not how it's sold...they're overcharging.
No wonder people download music. They've paid for the same music 3 or 4 times in different formats (vinyl, cassette, CD) and somewhere they've decided they've paid enough.
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The thing that has surprised me the most in this whole drama is that so many people, even fairly well known guys like Dave Grohl and Dee Snider, fell all over themselves to get some press by
riding bashing Gene's coattails, while missing or ignoring what Gene had to say. Dee is right. CD prices were a scam that the industry held onto as long as they could, and I would bet that absolutely contributed to Napster and everything that followed, but I haven't read where anybody successfully refuted Gene's actual point, in that the industry model for up and coming rock bands is dead, and has been for some time. Even if we argue over what killed it, I don't think anyone can say he's wrong there.
For a guy who's either long washed up or who never really mattered to real musicians and rock guys, Gene's hot air (which I, even as an old time fan, am well aware of) sure gets a lot of attention in and out of the industry.
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Years back, I remember a UK BBC programme called Tomorrow's World demonstrating the transfer of one 3 or 4 minute song by digital means from one place to another and it taking the length of most of the 30 minute or one hour show, and the fact that it was unlikely to catch on...
The Djinn is out of the bottle, but rock is not dead; just the manager...
As long as there are strings, timber, and a means of amplifying them, Gentlemen, and Ladies, the show goes on, and folks self-manage and pump it out on youtube and such, taking out the middleman, imho...
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Sometimes I spend quite a bit of time searching on YT for bands/artists that I may not know much about. Maybe I know nothing about them. Usually, the search is fairly fruitless. If I try to find live bands playing within driving distance, it's almost all country, hip-hop/pop, etc. Not really my cup of tea. Fortunately, I am able to get Later...with Jools Holland on cable now. At least there's that.
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Maybe rock was dead way before anyone ever heard of Gene Simmons.
I remember some guy saying years ago that Sgt Pepper was the death of rock & roll. Didn't understand that statement at the time but now I do.
I lament the death of live music in general more than any file sharing issue.
Everything in the world seems to be more & more form over function. Kiss was a shinning example. Remember their brief experiment with not looking like circus clowns?
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I spend a big portion of my life playing rock n roll...it's not dead, but I'm a dying breed....
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I have nothing but contempt for Gene Simmons. It's no secret that I've never liked him, but since I read that article last month and some of his other recent comments, I positively loathe him. He's not a musician, he's nothing but a jackass who performs only in order to get paid. An organ grinder's monkey has more artistic integrity.
For a relatively short time in the 70s and 80s, some performers could actually make money from the sale of records. Even then, 99.5% of artists never made a dime. Did those people stop creating? Did they stop playing?
Did you know that federal copyright never applied to recordings prior to 1972? Didn't recording artists create huge volumes of great music before then?
Don't talk to me about piracy. If piracy could be prevented, there's no evidence that the vast majority of pirates would buy what they pirate. There is evidence that more people will pay for music if it's made accessible at a reasonable price. The recording industry isn't interested in doing this. Screw them.
Don't talk to me about copyright. It's not "intellectual property" -- it's not property at all. It's a government monopoly that prevents people from using or sharing their property. Its purpose has never been compensating artists and creators. Look into its history -- it's always been about protecting publishers and distributors: the businessmen, not the artists and authors. Music throughout its history has been created and shared by communities. The idea that its purpose is to make money is very recent. The whole purpose of copyright is to prevent the sharing of culture so that the industry can make money and toss a few crumbs to a few creators.
The article has nothing to do with rock being dead. it's about Simmons lamenting that he can't make money from record sales like he used to. Screw him.
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Jeez, Dave, don't sugarcoat it. Tell us how you really feel! :)
I grew up liking KISS, seeing them in 1976 when my dad took me. Much, much later, I lost a lot of respect for Simmons when Terri Gross interviewed him on "Fresh Air" and he treated her like a piece of shit, even calling her ugly and he could see why she was on the radio rather than television. It was awful.
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Thanks for saying what I was thinking, Dave.
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same here. simmons is useless but his non stop mouth lives on.
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One more anti-Gene Simmons fan here >:(
Rick
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Maybe rock was dead way before anyone ever heard of Gene Simmons.
I remember some guy saying years ago that Sgt Pepper was the death of rock & roll. Didn't understand that statement at the time but now I do.
I lament the death of live music in general more than any file sharing issue.
Everything in the world seems to be more & more form over function. Kiss was a shinning example. Remember their brief experiment with not looking like circus clowns?
Whoever made the statement about Sgt. Pepper may have had some insight. Although I wouldn't say it was the death of rock & roll, the Beatles had reached their peak as a creative and cohesive unit with "Revolver." They still came out with some really good stuff, but the consistency they had been maintaining ended after "Revolver." I have to agree with George Harrison that "Sgt. Pepper" was a bit boring and tiring, although my perspective naturally has to be that of an outsider and not that of someone who spent countless hours in a studio.
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Well, when you look at how the world views "hits" on youtube....and that when we (or other local acts) play 40 people is a good night (and no we're not bad)..well, parts of rock/live music are dead. And people feel entitled to download music for free, so yah...Simmons has a point...and I don't like him either.
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The article has nothing to do with rock being dead. it's about Simmons lamenting that he can't make money from record sales like he used to. Screw him.
That's a point. He should sell guitars, a much more positive trade.
Oh, wait - he does that too....
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That's a point. He should sell guitars, a much more positive trade.
Oh, wait - he does that too....
Considering the price he asks for basses supposedly made in Korea, he ought to get together with Gibson.
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Funny thing here is that everybody, for once, is right - to some degree. As a Kiss fan, I must give Gene his due for helping to create what was an iconic band. Nobody can take that away from him, or the other three original members - who have all been derided for various reasons over the years. If you read interviews with them from the 70s, you will find that the aim was always to put together the best elements of all the loud, visual rock bands they had seen, and increase it tenfold. There has never been any doubt that Gene was all about the business end, though, and he sees things through that prism way now than in 1975. Still, much of what he says re the rock n roll business is on point. The instant gratification mentality that exists within those who don't want to save their money to buy the new album by whoever (as most of us did) also permeates the creative end - where many can't be bothered to actually learn to play, or spend endless hours in a garage, making the mistakes that we all need to make. So naturally, they don't want to really work to "own" anything either - be it a CD, a car or a house - unless somebody is giving it to them.
Dee is also right, in that corporations have taken the soul of not only the artists but of the listeners and fans as well. But why should it be any different than in any other industry? Another argument for another day... I've always wondered, though, why I have to pay for digital versions of albums that I bought on vinyl in the 70s. I'm pretty sure that neither Gene nor Dee would stand up to fight that one.
Dave is right, Gary is right, Kenny is right, Rick is right - isn't that from a Cheap Trick song? ;D
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Funny thing here is that everybody, for once, is right - to some degree. As a Kiss fan, I must give Gene his due for helping to create what was an iconic band. Nobody can take that away from him, or the other three original members - who have all been derided for various reasons over the years. If you read interviews with them from the 70s, you will find that the aim was always to put together the best elements of all the loud, visual rock bands they had seen, and increase it tenfold. There has never been any doubt that Gene was all about the business end, though, and he sees things through that prism way now than in 1975. Still, much of what he says re the rock n roll business is on point. The instant gratification mentality that exists within those who don't want to save their money to buy the new album by whoever (as most of us did) also permeates the creative end - where many can't be bothered to actually learn to play, or spend endless hours in a garage, making the mistakes that we all need to make. So naturally, they don't want to really work to "own" anything either - be it a CD, a car or a house - unless somebody is giving it to them.
Dee is also right, in that corporations have taken the soul of not only the artists but of the listeners and fans as well. But why should it be any different than in any other industry? Another argument for another day... I've always wondered, though, why I have to pay for digital versions of albums that I bought on vinyl in the 70s. I'm pretty sure that neither Gene nor Dee would stand up to fight that one.
Dave is right, Gary is right, Kenny is right, Rick is right - isn't that from a Cheap Trick song? ;D
We're all alright...
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I like Gene Simmons. There I said it. And while I don't side with most of his political convictions, I find his obervations often perceptive. He's a smart man who intentionally sometimes dumbs down his statements for maximum provocative effect. If you have worn leather bat wings for most of your professional life you are allowed to do that me thinks.
The interview he gave to his son (since when is he a journalist?) contains some points I would agree on. The much derided "record company moguls behemoth" of the sixties, seventies and eighties wasn't a welfare operation and is probably responsible for ruining enough careers. But it also financed enough people that today wouldn't have a chance. I don't believe that in this day and age a band would meet the patience, say, DP did who recorded four albums within two years until the fifth one - In Rock - finally cracked the market. I don't believe that a young Bruce Springsteen would receive the budget to record Born to Run today after two failed albums that went nowhere. Judast Priest needed two albums from Gull and another two to three from CBS before making it. That type of "getting behind someone" (and I'm open to the argument that decisions on who the record companies of old got behind were often arbitrary, unfair and not always based on musical merit), albeit to cash in eventually, I just don't see in today's market.
And all those people moaning about CD prices: Cost of living-wise, a CD today is cheaper than LPs were in the sixties. And provides a greater longevity of music media storage than vinyl ever did.
But the worst thing about the decline of the CD (or any similar media) as a media for music is the end of the album culture as we know it. And I was always an album (I want to hear Sgt. Pepper, Machine Head, Sad Wings of Destiny, Wish You Were Here or Destroyer from the beginning to end, not just individual songs from those albums), not an individual songs or singles man. But that is exactly what we are back to today, the single (piggyback with the video) which took a backseat to the album by the end of the sixties has basically returned and dominates everything. That devalues music as an art form IMHO. Everyone's I-Pod these days seems to be what a K-Tel International hit sampler was in the seventies, yuck!
Now you can all slaughter me. Come on, I deserve it. I'll crawl back underneath my CD rack (it's probably fair to say that I buy 10 CDs or more every week, I'm not to blame for the downfall of a business model with vast cultural implications!!!).
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Now you can all slaughter me.
I heard somewhere that all simmons fans should be 'hung' :mrgreen:
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I'm a glutton for punishers!
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I totally agree with Uwe. I think a lot of the "feedback" Gene has gotten on his comment is directed toward the headline only - "Rock is dead". I think his real point is, rock as we grew up knowing it is dead. The industry is dead. There are no more big deals being cut, enabling artists to be able to survive while they focus on their craft. There's no development anymore. To continue what Uwe was saying - a band like Rush - it took them 4 albums (2112) to even begin to "make it", and a few more to get to the point of regular rotation on radio (Permanent Waves). That would NEVER happen today. One or two strikes, and you're out. And I have to laugh when I see guys like Dee Snider or whoever contesting what Gene had to say. Guys who established themselves 20-30-40 years ago - WTF do they know about what it takes to start at square 1 in the year 2014? And that's not to say it's not a debatable topic, but I'd prefer people read other points of the interview besides the "rock is dead" tag line.
Having said all that, there is some good to come out of the current situation, and that is, it keeps young artists in it for the art, not for the "big payout", or the ability to do Bon Jovi-style videos. That's my hope at least.
Regarding CD sales and the album format - I hope it can all stay alive. I'm an album person, as I think most of us here are. I like physical product. I like albums played in a certain sequence. I like artwork, lyrics, and credits. Vinyl is a hot ticket now, and I hope that is a sign of good things ahead.
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Since when has the definition of Rock become "the music that is commercially successful"?
Sure enough Rock music sales have come to staggering all time low.
But that is not what it's about, as far as I'm concerned.
To me Rock is a music genre. Not some economical standard that bands need to live up to.
I saw Five Horse Johnson in Paradiso, Amsterdam perform in front of a handful of die hard fans. Black Berry Smoke performing in a club venue the size of our living room. Swimming upstream because that is what you want to do. That is what Rock is all about.
Gene Simmons is confusing commercial stadium pop with Rock.
The music industry that Herr Simmons represents (or is a part of) is flat on it's back and still has no clue where they went wrong.
As long as boys and girls go pick up a guitar and crank it up to eleven to create music with their bandmates, Rock is alive and kicking. As far as I'm concerned.
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George Berkeley said "to be is to be perceived." If there are obscure bands out that that are never going to move beyond a very limited level of being heard, I have to question how much good that's going to do. Whether he is personally liked or not is not the real issue: I think much of what Gene Simmons is saying is correct. Also, from my own observations it seems to me that quite a number of people aren't very curious about rock music anymore. That's their choice. But it is going to change things and it already does seem to be changing things--not in a good way, either. Jazz moved to a niche market and the same seems to be happening to rock. It's seriously doubtful that is ever going to change. I'm all for playing music for yourself, being in a band because you love it, etc. But I think it was just way better when bands at least had a chance to make it. Now it doesn't even matter at all how good you are. You may be ten times better than the best band that has ever existed. But if almost nobody will ever know, that's like inventing a cure for an illness that only a few people will ever get to use. It would be great that those few got treated, but still a shame that so many more could have also benefited.
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Maybe the article should have more fittingly been called "the rock industry is finally dead". And the rock industry as it existed in the sixties, seventies and eighties (and even early nineties) which pushed rock music (some good, some bad, some average) into households as a cultural force is indeed dead.
Rob holds a romantic grassroots approach against it "as long as a couple of kids can get together and make music ...". True, that even then there will still be rock music, but there will be no platform for the long-term success of specific artists. It's a bit like saying that if the auto industry of the world came to an end, that would have no effect as long as there are people out there that ocassionally build a non-brand car for themselves. Or if Fender and Gibson disappeared overnight that would be of no consequence either, people could still build their own guitars.
Rob, in your grassroots world there would have been no lavish US tours with Thin Lizzy as opening act trying to enlarge their audience, there would have been no Tony Visconti anybody could have paid and there would have been no spectacular "Live and Dangerous" rolled out ever in full page advertisements in the NME, Sounds and Melody Maker. Thin Lizzy would have played in some English pub before 20 people and someone would have said: "They're very good, aren't they, too bad they are not going anywhere." (One of) Your favorite band(s) relied almost exclusively on the corporate infrastructure the seventies still provided.
The Beatles at the Ed Sullivan Show was not "swimnming upstream", it was shoving an English cultural phenomenon down the (eager) throats of tens of millions of Americans. And you could then rush out to a record store and buy the Beatles album (if they printed enough for the demand that is) and Capitol/EMI would then finance a Beatles US tour (hoping to profit in the medium to long course from further LP sales). All that is gone now. I'm not saying it could have been preserved, but I sure don't see anything that has effectively replaced it. Rock is going into a direction where it has the same relevance to the majority of people that authentic blues had to most listeners in the late fifties and early sixties, it's turning into a niche product. That is what happens in capitalism if something cannot be turned into (big) money.
There is hardly a band here that more than a few people in this forum like that doesn't deserve the term "corporate" in one way or another.
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You're only emphasising what I'm saying. The pop music industry is flat on it's back. Great bands got great sales way back when. And I'm happy they did. It was another era.
But the music industry has changed. (For the worse). It is sick to the core.
But there are still many great Rock bands out there today that record their music and share it online.
Spotify, Deezer, Bandcamp, YouTube. All great ways to globally reach an audience.
Does it pay? Hardly.
But today a band doesn't need a hundred thousand dollar budget to record a great album. That to has changed (For the better). Bands don't need to sell a whole lot of albums to reach break even.
I can't remember when I last listened to the radio to discover new bands. I think it must have been half way in the nineties. Ever since the Internet came along, I've been browsing for great Rock bands. A few years ago you had MySpace. Found a bunch of really great independent Rock bands there. YouTube has been a great source, Pandora, Lastfm. As well as the aforementioned Spotify, Deezer, Bandcamp, etc
And it doesn't mean Rock bands can't tour anymore. For sure, the stadium fillers are a dying breed. To be honest; I never enjoyed going to Rock concerts in a huge stadium. Never a good sound, watching the entire show on a rough grit screen because the musicians on stage are too far away.
I've always preferred smaller venues, where you can actually see and hear what is being played.
And if you're lucky, afterwards drink a beer with the band. ;-)
I like the way Rock bands get creative when circumstances change. For example Gov't Mule; they record each show they play and offer the mixed tracks with updated artwork a few days later on a special website they have.
Sure enough they won't sell millions. But they keep the fans of their music connected to what they're doing.
And they appear quite relentless doing so.
Rock took a left turn. And Gene Simmons missed it.
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How many of the great independent rock bands discovered on MySpace years ago are still around? Obviously, no one even goes to MySpace anymore, although supposedly one of the main original purposes was for bands to have a way to promote themselves. How well that worked out is debatable. How many successful bands around are there being promoted as the great YouTube band? There are exceptions to this, and I've seen a few, but using YouTube as a primary method of promotion seems like a hard row to hoe to me.
One thing I'm already sick of is bands adding an extra song that is only available on iTunes. I'd rather they just put everything on an album (in whatever form) and that way I can buy everything at once. This "you can get this if you do that, or get that if you do this" is for the birds.
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I like the album format...I just bought 2 bluegrass CD's directly from the band website. Figured that way they probably got more money. I don't own an IPOD.
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[quote author=Basvarken link=topic=9160.msg152925#msg152925 date=1413317750
I like the way Rock bands get creative when circumstances change. For example Gov't Mule; they record each show they play and offer the mixed tracks with updated artwork a few days later on a special website they have.
Sure enough they won't sell millions. But they keep the fans of their music connected to what they're doing.
And they appear quite relentless doing so.
Rock took a left turn. And Gene Simmons missed it.
[/quote]
The first time I experienced the insta-CD was at a KISS show around ten or eleven years ago. They had the first CD ready as the show ended and the second was ready 20 minutes later. They weren't the only ones but it was fairly rare at the time. The technology is cheap enough now that the last one I got was last year after a Glenn Tilbrook show on a tour that was basically four or five people in an RV road tripping across America.
The problem with this argument is that everyone is talking about different things. The rock music career model that KISS and everyone else in that era experienced is dead. Gene wasn't talking about indy bands or garage bands or anything else. Why it's dead can be argued, but that it's dead is pretty well established these days, isn't it?
I gave up on Gene being any sort of rock n roll hero to me years ago, but I'll give the guy credit for figuring out a way to keep his name out there and be a bigger entity in the pop culture at freakin' 65 than he ever was at 25 or 30. Not only did he have all sorts of rockers (current and has-beens) lining up to refute him (and, coincidentally, get their name in the press at the same time), but here we are still arguing about an interview that happened over a month ago. The guy hasn't recorded a decent song in decades but he's still on everyone's mind and lips (no pun intended), especially those who love to hate him.
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Since when has the definition of Rock become "the music that is commercially successful"?
Sure enough Rock music sales have come to staggering all time low.
But that is not what it's about, as far as I'm concerned.
To me Rock is a music genre. Not some economical standard that bands need to live up to.
I saw Five Horse Johnson in Paradiso, Amsterdam perform in front of a handful of die hard fans. Black Berry Smoke performing in a club venue the size of our living room. Swimming upstream because that is what you want to do. That is what Rock is all about.
Gene Simmons is confusing commercial stadium pop with Rock.
The music industry that Herr Simmons represents (or is a part of) is flat on it's back and still has no clue where they went wrong.
As long as boys and girls go pick up a guitar and crank it up to eleven to create music with their bandmates, Rock is alive and kicking. As far as I'm concerned.
Amen!
Maybe the article should have more fittingly been called "the rock industry is finally dead". And the rock industry as it existed in the sixties, seventies and eighties (and even early nineties) which pushed rock music (some good, some bad, some average) into households as a cultural force is indeed dead.
Rob holds a romantic grassroots approach against it "as long as a couple of kids can get together and make music ...". True, that even then there will still be rock music, but there will be no platform for the long-term success of specific artists. It's a bit like saying that if the auto industry of the world came to an end, that would have no effect as long as there are people out there that ocassionally build a non-brand car for themselves. Or if Fender and Gibson disappeared overnight that would be of no consequence either, people could still build their own guitars.
I couldn't care less about the industry. I care about music. The "rock industry" and the larger music industry only cares about profiteering by locking up culture and keeping people from sharing music as people and cultures have since the dawn of time. Damned shame that we can't lock all the music industry execs and lobbyists in a condemned building and then bulldoze it to the ground.
That's why I said earlier that Gene Simmons isn't a musician, he's just a jackass who performs in order to get paid. I also said that an organ grinder's monkey has more artistic integrity, but on second thought I didn't mean to insult the monkeys by comparing them to Simmons. The monkeys don't have a choice.
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"I couldn't care less about the industry. I care about music. The "rock industry" and the larger music industry only cares about profiteering by locking up culture and keeping people from sharing music as people and cultures have since the dawn of time. Damned shame that we can't lock all the music industry execs and lobbyists in a condemned building and then bulldoze it to the ground."
Dave, that is so incredibly naive, I can't believe you wrote it. Libertarian voodoo wonderland crap. Do you really believe Shakespeare would have written (or whoever did it for him, can of worms here ...) all his plays had he not been able to profit from his work?
"That's why I said earlier that Gene Simmons isn't a musician, he's just a jackass who performs in order to get paid. I also said that an organ grinder's monkey has more artistic integrity, but on second thought I didn't mean to insult the monkeys by comparing them to Simmons. The monkeys don't have a choice."
He's musician enough for me. I bet you have never concentrated on one of his bass lines on those earlier albums. Without smoke bombs, make up, big mouth comments, just a very melodic and contrapunctual, even motownish bass line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4kTtGbNa-8
But that's obviously not music in your book and he's not a musician.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyWyaklmLGg
"A jackass who performs in order to get paid ...".
A most brilliant argument, Dave, really, how can he, that then puts him in the same league as Mario Lanza, Yehudi Menuhin, Rudolf Nureyev and Maria Callas. All four, IIRC, "performed to get paid". Dis-gus-ting.
"no artistic integrity"
I don't know what your definition of "artisitic integrity" is, but ole Chaim has certainly always been the most outspoken Kiss member as regards criticizing their own work. He's on record for disliking almost all their 80ies output, for straying from their initial hard rock with albums such as Dynasty, Unmasked and The Elder, for limp production (Crazy Nights), the list goes on.
Uwe
Gruppenführer of the DJDPDL (Descendants of Jewish Displaced Persons Defense League)
PS: If I could pick a rock star to have a nice dinner and some, no copious amounts of red wine with, I'd probably pick Herr Simmons ahead of all Deep Purple and Beatle members, deceased or still with us. I'm sure we wouldn't agree on many things, but it would be an entertaining night. I think the guy is cool, undiluted, tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek and pleasantly world-weary. He's by far the most interesting aspect of Kiss, musically or otherwise. And his make-up was the coolest of them all (Peter looked like a Cats Musical extra, Paul like a girl and Ace like a Marvel Comic figure), so there! :P
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Sveden weighs in...
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/yngwie-malmsteen-says-new-bands-have-no-chance-of-becoming-rock-stars/
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[quote author=Basvarken link=topic=9160.msg152925#msg152925 date=1413317750
I like the way Rock bands get creative when circumstances change. For example Gov't Mule; they record each show they play and offer the mixed tracks with updated artwork a few days later on a special website they have.
Sure enough they won't sell millions. But they keep the fans of their music connected to what they're doing.
And they appear quite relentless doing so.
Rock took a left turn. And Gene Simmons missed it.
The first time I experienced the insta-CD was at a KISS show around ten or eleven years ago. They had the first CD ready as the show ended and the second was ready 20 minutes later. They weren't the only ones but it was fairly rare at the time. The technology is cheap enough now that the last one I got was last year after a Glenn Tilbrook show on a tour that was basically four or five people in an RV road tripping across America.
Yeah, the insta-CD (thank you, George) is a great idea in theory - but not without its issues. A couple years back, Peter Frampton was coming to NJ with his great "FCA35" show and selling CDs following. Unfortunately, union regulations in NJ required a "royalty" payment by the artist that was rooted in data from the days when his albums sold millions of copies. Rather than pay the fee, they passed on recording and I settled for a copy of the previous night's show in MA.
A year or so later, I attended the BadCo / Skynyrd show up in Bethel Woods, NY. With BadCo being my favorite band of all time, I was excited to hear that CDs of the show would be available following the concert. Again, things went awry - we were told at the CD booth that they had "run out of discs" and would be shipping in a week or so. I paid my money and was told to expect a receipt by e-mail. Two weeks later, no receipt, no CD, no acceptable communication from the company. I contacted the venue to see if they had any inkling of what was going on. No response. I barraged the company's Facebook page, along with other disgruntled consumers on a daily basis. Finally a report surfaced that an employee of the company had gone AWOL with the customer list and money (really?), and that we would be contacted by a representative to arrange shipment. I received a call from their "top man" in the department (more on him in a minute) who assured me that CDs would be shipping that week. Not so much. After more FB posts and additional excuses, the discs finally arrived - a total of almost three months after the show. The phone number of the rep who called me showed up on my caller ID, so I started doing some creative sleuthing on FB and Linkedin to pass the time while waiting for my discs. Turns out he was / is the bassist for a fairly well-known West Coast hair metal(ish) band.
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Sveden weighs in...
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/yngwie-malmsteen-says-new-bands-have-no-chance-of-becoming-rock-stars/
And for once Yngwie is spot on right. The internet can give you huge exposure for a short period of time (Andy Warhol's "everyone will be a star for 15 minutes or so" comes in here) at little or no cost, but it doesn't have enduring clout nor focus to break a band permanently.
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"With BadCo being my favorite band of all time ...".
I had no idea, Lowie! David Coverdale once quipped that BadCo sounded "like a mix between us (he meant the MK III DP line up) and JJ Cale", I thought that was somehow apt, the Brit Blues Rock influence coupled with some Americana and Cale's inherent sparseness. (Of course you could rightfully argue that David Coverdale was only second choice to DP's initial wish to have Rodgers sing in the post-Gillan era, they had even goaded Glenn Hughes into the band leading him to believe he would sing with Rodgers, something Hughes looked forward to.) BadCo were probably the most economically playing hard rock band of all time, kind of CCRish in that respect.
So what are your favorite albums? I liked "Straight Shooter" over the (nevertheless very good, but a little too much "old Mott the Hoople-riffs rehashing") debut and really dig Burning Sky, decadent as it was as an end-seventies product and with Ralphs being relegated to mere sideman status for Rodger's compositions (he wrote the whole album).
I only saw them live once with Brian Howe (opening for Deep Purple in 1987, Boz was still with them), it was competent, but BadCo without Rodgers ...
Speaking of Boz, you are aware of this here AND THE MUSICIANS INVOLVED ON THIS RECORDING?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=384LnOxoDRM
Jon Lord was set to join BadCo in the late seventies following the demise of DP MK IV. Burrell, Ralphs and Kirke wanted him in, but Rodgers had seond thoughts about BadCo becoming all too "dinosaurish" in a New Wave environment with Jon's trademark Hammond sound. So Jon eventually joined Whitesnake.
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Other than Boz, I'm at a loss here - enlighten me.
I'm assuming that Blackie Lawless was not involved... :o
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Tsk, tsk, tsk - Blackmore on lead guitar, Ian Paice on drums and Jon Lord on keyboards. Derek Lawrence who had high hopes with Boz used them as session musicians just shortly before they recorded as Deep Purple.
Then you are unaware of this as well? :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIHq714ywBg
Lord on keys, Ashton on vox, Ralphs on guit, Burrell on bass and Kirke on drums. Only Rodgers is missing!
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I'll give the guy credit for figuring out a way to keep his name out there
He certainly does, just look at this thread! Regardless if one likes him or not, at least people gather round the campfire here and
bring out many interesting points about a very important subject. That's good work, Genie boy!
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PS: If I could pick a rock star to have a nice dinner and some, no copious amounts of red wine with, I'd probably pick Herr Simmons ahead of all Deep Purple and Beatle members, deceased or still with us.
If I was paying, I'd take David Bowie in the mid 70's.
' Just peppers and a glass of milk for me, please ' :)
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I'd prefer him more around the Station to Station/The Man Who Fell to Earth/Thin White Duke phase, he was strangest then. Diamond Dogs and Station to Station I even prefer over the (already very good) Ziggy stuff.
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And for once Yngwie is spot on right. The internet can give you huge exposure for a short period of time (Andy Warhol's "everyone will be a star for 15 minutes or so" comes in here) at little or no cost, but it doesn't have enduring clout nor focus to break a band permanently.
Whahaa! Yngwie is spot on?! When did that happen? :popcorn:
Yngwie is ranting about making a chance of being a Rock star and being able to buy a Ferrari.
That has nothing to do with Rock music itself.
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Nonsense, Rob, rock has all the world to do with fast cars, wimmin, alcohol and drugs, don't be silly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpitvLeNjuE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTMeNfEhpxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf1VkXjxktQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUYC5Q-bqgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS7XOWaQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz44xS5MzYE
Your sanitized concept of rock frightens me: No cars, no wimmin, no drink, no drugs, no dry ice and lasers, just playing music together and posting it on Youtube with organically bleached flyers from renewable forests at living room concerts, in that case then the Kelly Family is rock too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7X64_RRNL8
Rock without fast cars and other immature things is like omelettes without eggs.
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Haha. Neither of those bands were singing about buying a Ferrari.
Plus; a souped up Ford is a whole lot cooler in my book than a Ferrari ;)
This is Rock today Uwe
And there even is a (not necesarily fast) car in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQPfQvLIseA
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LMFAO!! The Kelly Family and rock.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTOd39107EY
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Incest is a terrible thing and a crime against future generations!
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Whatever it was that happened, if that alien song is any indication, it was something pretty freaking bizarre.
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No cars, no wimmin, no drink, no drugs, no dry ice and lasers
90s "alternative" bands took the fun out of rock and roll. :-\ :bored: ;D
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So true. And did they elicit notable audience reactions
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wBhbhTy-p08/SKt7GZfogLI/AAAAAAAAAXU/w5Pv3oLnXk4/s400/PURPLE.jpg)
or fly their own planes,
(http://rockononline2012.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/deep-purple-getty-fin-costello-1974.jpg)
much less develop new means of communicating with the media?
(http://consultoriadorock.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/ritchiecamara2.jpg)
Nuff said.
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Tsk, tsk, tsk - Blackmore on lead guitar, Ian Paice on drums and Jon Lord on keyboards. Derek Lawrence who had high hopes with Boz used them as session musicians just shortly before they recorded as Deep Purple.
Then you are unaware of this as well? :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIHq714ywBg
Lord on keys, Ashton on vox, Ralphs on guit, Burrell on bass and Kirke on drums. Only Rodgers is missing!
Guilty as charged. :-[ I am shamed.
To be fair though, on the first one - Blackmore machen mit der "wau-wau"?
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You mean his wah-wah phase? Yeah, he had that up to the early seventies and then he discarded it completely since everyone did it. The third epynomous DP album is referred to in DP fan circles as the "wah-wah album", he was all over with it. He had a whammy bar phase too (before, again, discarding that completely). The only technique he's stuck with throughout his career was his unique style of slide playing (on a regularly tuned guitar).
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"I couldn't care less about the industry. I care about music. The "rock industry" and the larger music industry only cares about profiteering by locking up culture and keeping people from sharing music as people and cultures have since the dawn of time. Damned shame that we can't lock all the music industry execs and lobbyists in a condemned building and then bulldoze it to the ground."
Dave, that is so incredibly naive, I can't believe you wrote it. Libertarian voodoo wonderland crap. Do you really believe Shakespeare would have written (or whoever did it for him, can of worms here ...) all his plays had he not been able to profit from his work?
LOL! None of Shakespeare's works were copyrighted! The world's first copyright law (the Statute of Anne) wasn't passed until nearly a century after Shakespeare died. And yet he was able to profit from the performance of his plays. Likewise composers were able to profit before musical compositions were covered by copyright (1830s in the US) and record companies sold millions of records before sound recordings were covered in 1972.
Thanks for demonstrating my point. :)
Libertarian? Not hardly. Unfortunately most libertarians have bought into the absurd notion that a government-granted monopoly is "property."
"That's why I said earlier that Gene Simmons isn't a musician, he's just a jackass who performs in order to get paid. I also said that an organ grinder's monkey has more artistic integrity, but on second thought I didn't mean to insult the monkeys by comparing them to Simmons. The monkeys don't have a choice."
He's musician enough for me. I bet you have never concentrated on one of his bass lines on those earlier albums. Without smoke bombs, make up, big mouth comments, just a very melodic and contrapunctual, even motownish bass line.
...
But that's obviously not music in your book and he's not a musician.
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"A jackass who performs in order to get paid ...".
A most brilliant argument, Dave, really, how can he, that then puts him in the same league as Mario Lanza, Yehudi Menuhin, Rudolf Nureyev and Maria Callas. All four, IIRC, "performed to get paid". Dis-gus-ting.
I'm not sure whether you're being obtuse or just misunderstood the context, so let me rephrase: he performs for the sole purpose of getting paid. That better?
Of course everyone likes being paid, I wasn't implying otherwise. Simmons has no other purpose. And that's why he has no artistic integrity.
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... The only technique he's stuck with throughout his career was his unique style of slide playing (on a regularly tuned guitar).
Not that unique, Guv...!
I remember when Warren Haynes stepped into Duane Allman's boots (last time I saw ABB was with him and Woody) he learnt all the slide solos on standard tuning before he found out DA used "E" tuning...!
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I didn't mean the standard tuning was unique (Blackmore doesn't like alternate tunings, that's all), but his slide approach and phrasing. With Blackmore you can sometimes not tell whether he is playing slide or not (the scalloped neck can allow for a slidy tone in notes even without the aid of a slide). He's a bit like George Harrison in that way as they both tend to avoid the "noisiness" that often comes with slide playing and don't yank the bottleneck around to cover too much of a distance between notes on the fretboard. They are both rather unbluesy slide players and have more of a steel guitar player approach.
Blackmore also doesn't slide chords in general, it's either single notes or his trademark double stops. Like he does here when at 5.24 he starts playing the riff with a slide. Now that doesn't exactly sound like when Johnny Winter or Rory Gallagher dig out the slide, does it? Most people don't even realize that it is slide playing at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YwkYLnOQew
Or here at 1.14, that doesn't sound like it came from a Mississippi Delta blues shack either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ5quMAjfs0
And finally here, he switches to slide at 3:10, the difference to his non-slide playing before is not that stark (and later on proceeds to play Beethoven's Ninth with the slide):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6nR2aNO1pg
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Point 1: LOL! None of Shakespeare's works were copyrighted! The world's first copyright law (the Statute of Anne) wasn't passed until nearly a century after Shakespeare died. And yet he was able to profit from the performance of his plays. Likewise composers were able to profit before musical compositions were covered by copyright (1830s in the US) and record companies sold millions of records before sound recordings were covered in 1972.
Thanks for demonstrating my point. :)
Libertarian? Not hardly. Unfortunately most libertarians have bought into the absurd notion that a government-granted monopoly is "property."
Point 2: I'm not sure whether you're being obtuse or just misunderstood the context, so let me rephrase: he performs for the sole purpose of getting paid. That better? (Uwe: Naw, by your own high standards still weakish.)
Of course everyone likes being paid, I wasn't implying otherwise. Simmons has no other purpose. (Uwe: Sez who?) And that's why he has no artistic integrity. (Uwe: Ah, now I understand, like Chuck Berry then, who has for decades declared that he only performs for money. Chuck Berry has no artistic integrity, you live and learn!)
Objection!
Point 1: The might and clout of the sixties and seventies record industry wasn't so much based on the copyright regime but on the lack of technical means to get 100% copies of almost any music within seconds. If you think copyright laws were their secret recipe, then that is a simplistic monocausal explanation. It's just that copyright laws are your pet hate subject! :P
Point 2: Conjecture! You don't know what's going on in Herr Simmons' mind when he plays. True, he has always downplayed the musician in him (leaving that role to "artsy" bleeding heart musician Paul Stanley), but that is just because of his act as Mr Nasty with the inconvenient truths/soundbite chef in Kiss. The truth is: If he disliked playing bass and performing, he could have stopped doing both long ago and just live off the royalties of Rock'n'Roll All Night. What makes you think that he is not enjoying himself here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyWyaklmLGg
Maybe, just maybe he likes all five: bass playing, making loads of money, sex, putting on make up and putting you off! ;)
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:popcorn:
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I think Blackmore's slide playing is more of an outgrowth of his affair with the cello, as is the octave effect.
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I never thought of it that way, but you're right! Very perceptive.
Still waiting for your BadCo album faves though!
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rock has been dead musically for decades. have not heard anything truly original in years and i am constantly looking. there is only so much you can do with bass, drums, guitar and keyboards. is this where someone posts a pic with a rockin' oboe? or another blackmore oddity? my 2 cents.
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Fair point, but then classical music is dead too. 12 notes (and not all possible combinations of them are pleasant to the human ear), an orchestra set up, you might have more options than with a four- or five-piece rock band, but you hit the wall eventually.
"Truly original" is of course a high standard. I guess The Beatles, Hendrix and Frank Zappa pass that test, but even in the seventies there was very little "truly original", much was just refinement of previous ideas. Don't laugh, but I thought The Police sounded like something else when they arrived on the market in the late seventies, that mix of reggae, Summer's weird chording, Sting's sparse, but dominant bass playing, the overzealous drumming, the falsetto vocals, it sounded quite new. But I also remember how they were derided as "white man's reggae played by prog has-beens" in some quarters.
And for the avoidance of doubt: I never bestowed "true originality" on Deep Purple, they forged their own sound by doggedly hanging on to that Strat/Hammond twin riff attack, whether it was en vogue or not, plus were unafraid of long improvisations and unafraid to swing rather than plod, but the ingredients of their music were always plain to find with their predecessors or even contemporaries.
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I never thought of it that way, but you're right! Very perceptive.
Still waiting for your BadCo album faves though!
Sorry about that. I got distracted by the original subject of the thread vis a vi Gene...
Straight Shooter is my favorite, although one can't deny the impact of the first album. On SS, Rodgers sounds more raw - and more like he did with Free. Likewise, Mick Ralphs' leadwork kind of sets a standard for me, in terms of tone. Some of that stuff still sends chills up my spine, whereas the first LP is a little more subdued. SS is the reason Ralphs is my favorite guitarist, followed by Leslie West, whose influence on MR was palpable. Run With The Pack was a very good album, as was Burnin' Sky, but neither really approached the urgency of the first two. Desolation Angels had some very bright spots but it was clear that there was a downward trend. Electricland? Let us not speak of it. Paul Rodgers is my favorite vocalist, followed by Lou Gramm, so it is no surprise that I liked the Brian Howe version of the band with regard to new songs, but Howe was ill-suited for singing Rodgers' material. There are some great original B-sides on the BadCo Anthology, along with a couple of credible "new" songs.
BTW, IIRC, Rod Price played in standard tuning with Foghat...
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"Some of that stuff still sends chills up my spine, whereas the first LP is a little more subdued."
That is a perfectly apt way of putting it. Straight Shooter is looser and more confident. Good Lovin' Gone Bad was a chest-beating entrance.
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Without smoke bombs, make up, big mouth comments, just a very melodic and contrapunctual, even motownish bass line.
He obviously never learned to play anything remotely Motownish until recently :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q15LqTowvhA
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I always liked how drums and bass locked in on Bad Co. albums...right in the pocket
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Saw them at Earls Court circa '77... simply quite stunning...
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Objection!
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Point 2: Conjecture! You don't know what's going on in Herr Simmons' mind when he plays. True, he has always downplayed the musician in him (leaving that role to "artsy" bleeding heart musician Paul Stanley), but that is just because of his act as Mr Nasty with the inconvenient truths/soundbite chef in Kiss. The truth is: If he disliked playing bass and performing, he could have stopped doing both long ago and just live off the royalties of Rock'n'Roll All Night. What makes you think that he is not enjoying himself here?
...
Maybe, just maybe he likes all five: bass playing, making loads of money, sex, putting on make up and putting you off! ;)
Objection? Are you an attorney or something? :mrgreen:
Of course it's conjecture, we can't look into anyone else's mind, but you can know someone by his actions. And to me, his actions are motivated only by money and more money. Sure, he could have retired, but that would mean he wouldn't be putting himself out there to make more money.
He's not about music. Never has been, never will.
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I'll agree that greed can be a bad thing and, in my opinion, is one of the worst things I see out there. I'm speaking in general terms. But wanting to play for money isn't necessarily a bad thing, if not taken to the extreme. (I was going to provide examples of some musicians who I think might have been more motivated if they had been paid more, but decided against it.)
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He's not about music. Never has been, never will.
Hurumph to that - It's not long ago I heard him say in a tv-interview that it did'nt really matter who played on stage, as long as they used the KISS brand and songs. Anyone could be hired for the job. I think it vas a response to a question about why they put ace makeup on
the guitar player that replaced him.
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Next tour they will have Carol Kaye on bass with gene makeup, noone will notice :mrgreen:
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Next tour they will have Carol Kaye on bass with gene makeup, noone will notice :mrgreen:
:toast:
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I'm not a KISS fan, never have been. Yet I feel all this Gene Simmons bashing is missing the whole point. The subject (I thought) was about the state of rock music. I guess not. I can't think of a single artist out there who doesn't have foibles. Even now I'm mulling over some unpleasant things I've just found out about one of my greatest musical heroes. It's disappointing, but life goes on. If everybody starts bashing all imperfections that are found everywhere, we might as well start engaging in self-flagellation if thoroughness is the goal. I feel the point that Gene Simmons was trying to make was valid. Certainly, I haven't seen anyone anywhere even come close to refuting it. But kill the messenger.
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He obviously never learned to play anything remotely Motownish until recently :mrgreen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q15LqTowvhA
Cheap, cheap, cheap shot! If you had Chris Squire, Geddy Lee and Steve Harris in the same situation, none of them would do a better job than Herr Simmons in that vid. Why? Because it's not their style and none of them has ever seriously played music that requires (or invites) a bubbly bass line like that. That said, Gene works at it and towards the end gets close. I doubt that I would have done better (much more likely: worse) because I don't play bubbly bass lines very often either, it's not that I rehearse to Jamiroquai CDs all day!
And his own caustic and self-deprecating comments about anybody being able to take his place within Kiss: Gene knows he's putting on an act for the Kiss audience and that no one is in those arenas because they want to hear his style of bass playing. That is just being realistic: If you wear leather bat wings and dragon heads as boots, people don't come to you for your bass playing. With Kiss, the image and spectacle will eternally dwarf whatever musical merits there are. That is the Faustian pact they signed when they mapped their career.
But what surprises me is that here in a forum full of bassists with ears the conventional wisdom that someone dressed up like Gene on stage and mouthing off like Gene in interviews can somehow not play bass is simply assumed to be fact without anybody actually giving his playing a listen. I've said it again and again: If anything, he plays more than your average bass player plays (or needs to play) in a hard rock setting. His style is firmly entrenched in sixties bass playing to the point of being old-fashioned (even in the seventies) for all its overt rock'n'roll bass licks. By today's (lamentable) standards he overplayed on much of Kiss' seventies output, way too busy (which - together with Peter Criss' swinging drumming - explains why the Kiss rhythm section never really sounded bludgeoning in the seventies). The "root note disease" grabbed a hold of him following Kiss taking off the make-up (he blamed producers for asking him to deliver AC/DC type bass playing), but in the nineties he returned more to his former style.
He really, really should pay me for how often I take a stand for him here and I'm not even a fan of his band. But in a whimsical mood I bought all of Kiss' studio product (what I didn't already have) comparatively recently (dutifully on CD, thereby supporting the Simmons and Stanley endangered estates) and listened to Kiss for days in the car. What struck me was that he is one of the few hard rock bassists who plays overtly behind the beat throughout (it's probably not even conscious with him and at the same time the reason why his bass playing never sounds elegant). And that also explains why his covering of Ms Kaye's bass licks is pretty much doomed to failure as she had a penchant for playing (beautifully) ahead of the beat. Simmons' sluggish feel takes all of the "boppiness" out of it. You should hear me when I - being an ahead of the beat player - attempt to do a Robbie Shakespeare bass run. Or perhaps you better shouldn't! :mrgreen:
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Hey Uwe... Loosen up!
:mrgreen:
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Uwe makes a great point about style and what is comfortable for whom...
If someone thrust a Grabber (or better yet, an stage blood-encrusted LoBue with high action) into Carol's hands and asked her to nail the bass line in "Goin' Blind", what would the result be?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80h5RQu55Z8
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Hey Uwe... Loosen up!
:mrgreen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMW_ROS94Kk
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To me, the point is about the industry and today's musical tastes, not Simmons' playing.
In popular music today the 12-bar blues style is losing ground. There are umpty-'leven different niche types of music, and some of them have completely abandoned that musical structure. Fine for those who like it, I'm a creature of habit and I prefer that style.
The industry is dealing with fragmented tastes in music listeners, and doesn't have direction. It's adrift in an old rowboat with one oar, trying to figure out which direction to paddle in hopes that it will find another oar (aka: a good business idea) that lets them row in a direction that will re-open the big cash box. But it's depending on oars instead of building a sail. (Maybe that metaphor has gone as far as I can take it...)
I find it hard to have much sympathy for the production-line music that is found today, but I am somewhat comforted by the fact that musicians still write and perform, and even if I don't care for many of the micro-niche musical styles out there, people are keeping busy making music.
Meanwhile, I can stick that Blues Brothers CD in the player and enjoy some 12-bar style.
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How can rock be dead when Definition of Madmen just came out with a new album and the Nasty Habits, Knight Patrol and the Eggmen are still touring?
Rock's not dead. If it's lasted this long, it's got proven legs. If Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, Gretsch, Peavey, Dean, Ibanez, G&L, Carvin, Yamaha and the cornucopia of other guitar manufacturers can still have a reason to stay in business making electric guitars, then rock isn't dead.
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if its not dead then it is terribly boring. see my last post.
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It just smells funny...
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There is still loads of good music around (and I don't see Simmons wishing to doubt that).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8YAxsUmmRE
But the infrastructure for propelling it with longevity to the public has suffered. Moan all you want about the record execs of yore, they also nurtured talent, if out of coincidence or sheer greed. If you take a band like ... let's say ... Led Zeppelin, we haven't discussed them in a long time here, I think it's fair to say that their (very much deserved) success was based one third on their talent as musicians, one third on Atlantic being a very supportive record company to them and one third on Peter Grant's managerial skills and ruthlessness.
I rule out that any band of similar musical stature today would be able to go as far - there would be no Atlantic Records/Ahmet Ertegün and no Peter Grant to help them.
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Still the question: is success required to be alive?
And if so, what is the definition of success?
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On a related note---
http://www.cleveland.com/music/index.ssf/2014/10/the_black_keys_patrick_carney.html
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Still the question: is success required to be alive?
And if so, what is the definition of success?
Pots of money...?
Ah... I fell into the trap...
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Still the question: is success required to be alive?
And if so, what is the definition of success?
Oh my, now we have a Dutch philosopher among us! Wait a minnit, weren't you the guys that invented or at least celebrated (Calvin might have been Swiss) Calvinism: You need success or you won't go to heaven. Heaven is filled with wealthy people. (For the avoidance of doubt: Rob is Catholic, so can only be blamed for Dutch Calvinism in a roundabout way, but I still wanted to make the argument! 8) )
The presence or absence of a mighty record industry has nothing to to with the quality of music or the enjoyment of people listening to or making it. That wasn't Simmons' point. But without out a committed industry (and it can be committed to just make money, that doesn't harm if the music backed by it is coincidentally good) you won't have the same concentrated push for breaking and sustaining an artist. The internet is arbitrary and fickle in the fame it provides.
Let's take two examples: I bought the new Neil Diamond CD Melody Road (Don Was produced, very 70ish and non-Las Vegas, but not as sparse as the Rick Rubin stuff) yesterday. And I saw Robert Cray (I told you my music taste is eclectic) in a club of 450 people (excellent concert, I like the soul influence in his music blues purists tend to view as sacrilege) yesterday. I first heard Neil Diamond in the early seventies - I guess it was "Song Sung Blue", the girls at TASOK liked that and I thought it wasn't bad - and I first heard Robert Cray (like most people probably) sometime in the late 80ies. Rob, how high do you think the chances are that some band with momentary youtube popularity, but not a corporate behind it will
- in 40 years still be selling music,
- in 25 years still be giving concerts before a sizeable amount of people?
So yes, I think it is more difficult today to make being a rock musician (I'm not even saying "rock star") your choice of employment for a longer lasting period (not that it was ever easy or without risk). I - and obviously Gene Simmons - do not necessarily think that that is a good thing. If a job is no longer attractive, it tends to die out. That is why we have more car mechanics than horseshoe makers. And even the car mechanics are probably in the meantime outnumbered by IT cracks.
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It's all very sad. I have to buy my horse shoes on ebay these days :-X
I'm not into sports of any kind, but in this match I happen to cheer both teams. I believe firmly that Rock will survive, as long as someone get a kick out of playing and hearing it. As mentioned above, guitars still sell and people make them - and kids who wanna rock buy them ( although sales could be misleading - maybe it's just wealthy lawyers buing them for future investments )
Can't we just say times are though?? Yes, music industry is not what it was and might never be the same again, but what is? Everything changes, who knows - it might be better in the future?
I have this cozy lunchrestaurant/pub ilocated in an old house in a small town. But even small towns have big malls now, and people will rather eat/drink/meet/have coffee in that very same place they buy everything else. They want to be able to park the car in the same building, if it rains they won't get wet etc. I've never seen times as tough as these, business-wise. Ten years ago everybody in town loved this new 'easy' shopping thing. Today, the whole town seems to hate it. All small shops are out of business, and buying proper food/groceries is difficult. After some time, there will be a demand for quality. I firmly believe times they are a changing, although it might take a long time.
Off-topic maybe, but I think humanity will accept only so much crap before fighting back. Death to shopping malls and internet, let's start anew! (Oh, about that internet comment.. I'd miss the LBO, but one could still use pigeons? The last first bass pigeon outpost?)
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Someone would eat the pigeon...
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Someone would eat the pigeon...
Something along those lines has already happened with the passenger pigeon. Not the same thing as the carrier pigeon, but close enough.
http://www.history.com/news/the-last-days-of-the-passenger-pigeon-100-years-ago
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The Last Pigeon Outpost - LOL!!!
Malls, don't start me on those, they were invented for wimmin or something. I never like to go there (they are the concept of a department store blown out of all proportion and I didn't even like department stores when they were still prevalent), Edith does (which proves my point). I'd rather spend a quarter of an hour looking for an illegal place to park, catch a parking ticket and walk to a couple of shops in the rain. I don't like the absence of real daylight and outside climate in huge buildings, nor of car traffic on streets, so malls have a hard time with me.
That new Neil Diamond CD is real nice. It sounds like it came out in 1971 in a good way. Don Was really captured Diamond's essence.
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That new Neil Diamond CD is real nice. It sounds like it came out in 1971 in a good way. Don Was really captured Diamond's essence.
That's my favorite era of Neil's career so I'll have to check it out. See, we can agree on some things!
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Have I ever doubted that, you despicable conservative beelzebub?!!! :-*
Hey, I even listened yesterday to two CDs of Uncle Ted's between-songs diatribes on his recent Ultralive Ballistic Rock or whatever it is called. If only Ted talked less and Derek St. Holmes sang more ... But what I did notice is that the way Nugent works an audience - NRinAneness aside - owes more to what, say, James Brown did in his soul revue or how the J. Geils Band used to do it than to a classic metal approach. Even the music is in its frenziness (but all the same grooviness) closer to James Brown live than, say, your classic hard rock suspects. So his mouthings about playing "soul music" or "Motown" (even on this CD) are not without merit if you do not so much apply it to the type of music but how it is played.
Where were we? Ah yes, the new Neil Diamond.
You can hear two songs here and they aren't even the best ones on the CD:
http://www.neildiamond.com/music/melody-road/
And there are two vids here:
http://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/music/514647/Neil-Diamond-comeback-single-Melody-Road
I know that old Neil is always a bit on the corny-o-meter, but I'm a sucker for his voice.
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owes more to what, say, James Brown did in his soul revue or how the J. Geils Band used to do it than to a classic metal approach. Even the music is in its frenziness (but all the same grooviness) closer to James Brown live than, say, your classic hard rock suspects. So his mouthings about playing "soul music" or "Motown" (even on this CD) are not without merit if you do not so much apply it to the type of music but how it is played.
Those are perfect examples. Politics aside I think Nugent's upbringing in Michigan made for an interesting cultural homogeneity that would surprise some. His music has a groove that definitely owes a lot more to Motown than Metal.
I first heard Neil in the mid 70s (his Love at the Greek album was huge - mom's everywhere played it in their station wagons so their kids couldn't escape it) and the schmaltz was pretty evident, but I heard something in his delivery that made me seek him out once I was buying records on my own. When I heard Hot August Night and the studio albums that made up that material, I was hooked. I bought his records right along with my Sabbath, Cooper, and KISS albums. The guy in my local record shop thought I was nuts.
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LOL - I can relate! Edith is still wondering today whether my ability to hear Miles Davis, Scorpions, Bob Dylan, New York Dolls, Carpenters and some weird prog in a row on one single afternoon (only Herr Zimmermann would find her favor) is a sign
- that I have climbed new heights of an eclectic music-Zen state most lesser mortals are barred from ever even getting near,
- or, more likely, that I am just totally indiscriminate in my music tastes and simply like something blaring in the background!
Anyways, I'm seeing Accept in a few hours, they now have a yank (and, of course, staunch gun control opponent ... Baltes, the German bassist, on him: "We avoid discussing things like that in the band, cause we can never agree!") singing for them who is not doing too bad a job! (Bit as if Udo Dirkschneider could sing which of course he never could!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbUXHTWZ9vk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXocdOBRQ80
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXVYmCHk7_k
That music is comic book-inane, but pleasantly so! :mrgreen: A guilty pleasure. I saw them last sometime in the early 80ies opening for Saxon and Judas Priest who were then touring their much underrated Point of Entry album.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0nofYWJ4Z4
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- or, more likely, that I am just totally indiscriminate in my music tastes and simply like something blaring in the background!
My wife is in no doubt. She regards me as a continual source of noise. If I don't create it myself, I generally seek it out.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0nofYWJ4Z4
Oh, that is him! What a find!!! He and Accept are a good match both visually and musically, there is an obvious rapport on stage, they played a lot of stuff from the last three CDs with him plus the obvious Udo-era hits which he delivered well as well. Accept never reached a Scorpions type status in Germany (or anywhere else), but they had the Langen Stadthalle close to filled and that means an audience of 1.500+ on a Monday evening who all knew the more recent stuff. For a band that never had a hit in the charts and peaked commercially 30 years ago, I think neither Mark Tornillo nor his Kraut mates need to complain at this rate.
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This fits with the initial subject of the thread: I read today on the business pages of a newspaper that 2014 is likely to be the first year since platinum sales were recorded that will not feature a single platinum album. If Beyonce and Lorde are lucky, they might each make it with their 2013 releases that need to hit 800,000 sales each, but it's unlikely at this point. Only individual songs seem to attain platinum status anymore, this year it is something like 60 songs, last year it was something like 80 platinum "singles", but only a handful of platinum albums.
Does anybody remember the time when more or less every household had a Dark Side of the Moon or a Frampton Comes Alive? I used to mock people who had them!
I don't believe that in the future albums will leave a similar cultural imprint and that kind of saddens me. Yeah, laugh all you will, "Frampton", "cultural" and "imprint".
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Oh, that is him! What a find!!! He and Accept are a good match both visually and musically, there is an obvious rapport on stage, they played a lot of stuff from the last three CDs with him plus the obvious Udo-era hits which he delivered well as well. Accept never reached a Scorpions type status in Germany (or anywhere else), but they had the Langen Stadthalle close to filled and that means an audience of 1.500+ on a Monday evening who all knew the more recent stuff. For a band that never had a hit in the charts and peaked commercially 30 years ago, I think neither Mark Tornillo nor his Kraut mates need to complain at this rate.
Yeah, I spent many a night in the NJ clubs back in the early 1980s, when Tornillo and TT Quick were a mainstay. They initially started out as an AC/DC tribute of sorts.
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This fits with the initial subject of the thread: I read today on the business pages of a newspaper that 2014 is likely to be the first year since platinum sales were recorded that will not feature a single platinum album. ...
That would be a good thing, if true.
Nothing to do with rock being dead, of course. Just another sign of an outdated business model.
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+1 :mrgreen:
Rock doesn't need to worry. There's lots of talent ready to take over the torch.
(just not sure if Accept or any of the other dinosaurs will survive, Uwe... :popcorn:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1boUYB9LFJY
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I dunno, but I wouldn't have minded a couple of platinum (or even just gold) records in my time, they make nice wall hangers ...
(http://magar57.altervista.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/d2.jpg)
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+1 :mrgreen:
Rock doesn't need to worry. There's lots of talent ready to take over the torch.
(just not sure if Accept or any of the other dinosaurs will survive, Uwe... :popcorn:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1boUYB9LFJY
Let's discuss that in thirty years from now, Rob, when The Warning still have sales and sell out 1.500 seaters. People will then surely have copies of that youtube vid still at home and take it out to marvel at it regularly.
Dinosaurs can be a dogged breed. Their extinction was last proclaimed in 1977 by punk, yet it seems that the scaly ones have outlived what the mohawked newcomer rodents proclaimed at the time.
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Gotta resurrect this to make a point:
For all those who believe that Gene Simmons is a bad bassist ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFocChqelXU
I think he's quite busy, melodic and - even for 1974 when this was recorded - endearingly old-fashioned. More Macca than Geezer Butler. The album "Dressed to Kill" (my first Kiss album and I listened to it intently) is full with good time-bass lines like that. The "Demon's" bass playing was utterly undemonic, he wouldn't have sounded out of place with Chicago. Sheesh, he even doubled vocal lines!
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Great find, Uwe. And that's the playing and player that made me want to play bass in the first place.
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It bugs me that unfounded conventional wisdom is that he is a lame player when he actually played more than what was required. And it always drew a smile on my face that he had this horror image yet played what was essentially pop bass. People didn't actually listen, but just made assumptions.
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Yep. Obviously the image was also a draw for my ten year old self, but the bass lines were so much like what I grew up hearing in the late 60s and early 70s that the music drew me in even more than the show. That kind of melodic pop music was my introduction to rock music. For a long time, any band where I could hear shades of the Beatles at least got my attention, and I heard that in KISS' music pretty early on.
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He's always admitted that he was/is a Beatles-nerd.
(http://images.nymag.com/news/features/childhood/memories130408_simmons_560.jpg)
PS: I know it's incredibly cheesy, but "Anything for my Baby" was my favorite track on Dressed to Kill.
Though Stanley force-rhyming "nearer" (pronounced "neeeeruh" by him) with "mirror" (pronounced "meeeeeruh" by him) on 'Come on and Love me' was a corny highpoint too!
"You were distant, now you're nearer
I can feel your face inside the mirror"
Wouldn't he be "seeing" rather than "feeling" her face inside the mirror unless they were both snorting cocaine at the same time? :mrgreen:
But being corny was part of Kiss' charm. 8)
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Ever since I saw Gene's bass playing described as being entrenched in 60s rock to the point of being old fashioned by 70s' standards that got my attention. Also, the part about him playing behind the beat. I totally identify with this style of playing. I haven't listened to KISS much, but maybe I should. But if that kind of bass playing is considered bad by some people (and I'm sure it is,) then my own bass playing is also bad. If it is, then so be it. I'm not changing; it's way too ingrained now. Plus, I actually like it.
Edit: I decided to check around at other places and read what other people might be saying. I'm not so well-versed in musical terminology as Uwe, but "playing behind the beat" is not a bad thing. It has nothing with that. I actually saw some comments somewhere else in which people thought it was an excuse for having bad timing. Sheesh. Tming is the least of my worries. It's always what I've been best at. The down side, though, is that sometimes I do wonder if I should have been a drummer. Nevertheless, having good timing as a bassist is critical, IMO.
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If playing behind the beat is a bad thing, then John Bonham was a horrible drummer. Most people would disagree. Bonham had a great sense of timing, but he was almost always behind the beat. I didn't mean it as a bad thing, it's just comparatively rare with hard rock bassists to be behind the beat though Boz Burrell of Bad Co was way behind the beat too, it was part of Bad Co's charm.
Take Lars' behind-the-beat drumming away from Metallica and the band wouldn't sound the same and lose a lot of its heaviness. Strangely enough he's an Ian Paice fan and prefers him over Bonham (Paice is on top or slightly ahead of the beat, it's his swing style).
I'm personally more of a ahead-of-the-beat player, more so as a young man than today, but you don't really have a choice about that, you are what you are.
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John Paul Jones talks about playing behind the beat here; I think it starts at about 12 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaa1axJ63Qg&feature=player_detailpage#t=710s
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Gotta resurrect this to make a point:
For all those who believe that Gene Simmons is a bad bassist ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFocChqelXU
I think he's quite busy, melodic and - even for 1974 when this was recorded - endearingly old-fashioned. More Macca than Geezer Butler. The album "Dressed to Kill" (my first Kiss album and I listened to it intently) is full with good time-bass lines like that. The "Demon's" bass playing was utterly undemonic, he wouldn't have sounded out of place with Chicago. Sheesh, he even doubled vocal lines!
Is it my speakers, or is the bass the only thing that sounds good on this recording? Thumbs up for Gene (for once:-) but everything sounds like a magnetophone recording except that bassline.
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It was just a demo for the sessions for Dressed to Kill! His bass on the final version is also more sparse, he was still experimenting.
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Did not have time to go through that John Paul Jones video. I will say this however. He was a huge fan of the Meters and followed them religiously and attended any of their gigs he could. I know cause we are connected by family ( the Meters that is not Zep)and he would always be sitting pretty at out of the way places like Cotati, CA, off the River in Mississippi etc). Yes if playing behind the beat is a bad thing I am doomed as well. I learned from George Porter and Zig Modeliste ( personally) all about the drum/ bass relationship. AND where would a certain Richard Starkey and his influence be with a a good sense of the back beat. That band came together when he came in.