The Last Bass Outpost

Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: Dave W on October 27, 2023, 02:43:02 PM

Title: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on October 27, 2023, 02:43:02 PM
Ever since Sacheen Littlefeather's claimed Indian ancestry was exposed as a lie last year by Native American writer Jacqueline Keeler, I've been following  the exposés of Pretendians, especially in Canada.

Today a CBC show aired an exposé of Buffy Sainte-Marie. After watching it, I'm convinced that she's been deliberately lying about her claimed ancestry for 60 years, to her financial benefit. It's shocking, and what's really appalling are the ugly threats from her attorneys, and her personally in one case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMsqCWNCUc4
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 27, 2023, 08:06:36 PM
Alas!, Pretendians and Creetalians ... I watched it all.

My take is:

- Buffy does likely not have Native Canadian DNA in her blood. In something akin to the Stockholm Syndrome she has for whatever reason adapted to/adopted/culturally appropriated an indigenous North American identity. But does not being born as a Native Canadian mean that she cannot now be an accepted member of a Native Canadian tribe? Weren't the Caucasian protagonists in both A Man Called Horse and Dances With Wolves accepted as belonging to the Sioux Nation by born Native Americans by the end of those films? I know, just movies, but I never heard from an Native American that such an assimilation would have been impossible under tribal culture. What I did read a few years ago in connection with another "Pretendian" case from an actual Native American spokesman somewhere in the Southwestern US was that belonging to a Native American/Canadian community is NOT determined by DNA, but by shared culture, practices and values. If that is so, then fine, DNA doesn't count, at least according to the people who identify as Native North Americans.

- Buffy has been a spokes(wo)man for Native American/Native Canadian causes over decades. Is none of that to count anymore because it turns out she was a "Little Wop" and not a "Little Injun"? I have issues with that type of thinking.

- The allegation that she robbed someone with real Native North American DNA of opportunities and fame by taking his/her place is far-fetched. Life doesn't work that way. Buffy didn't buy gasoline cheap because of tribal discounts she was not entitled  to, she built a career based perhaps on an illusion, but it was still her career. And I don't think anyone gave a bison's furry ass that she claimed Native North American ancestry when she submitted "Lift Us Up Where We Belong" as the soapy anthem to a kitschy-reactionary film advocating how only the Marines can turn you into a decent person and how some military base floozies get elevated to be jet pilot officers' wives one day if they just let themselves be humiliated long enough and don't fake pregnancies. Awful movie, awful song, and the worst part is that we all know that set back by a hundred years Zack Mayo would have not flown a plane and shot down commies eventually, but ridden a US Cavalry horse and slaughtered Native Americans. It has always baffled me that Buffy was prepared to give a song for THAT movie.

- I don't voice an opinion on the abuse allegations, but let me say two things: (i) abuse of one daughter (or sister) while the other one remains unscathed (and unknowing) is probably more the norm than the exception in family abuse scenarios, (ii) if anything like that happened (and I'm not saying it did), then Buffy's quest to become an adopted Native North American child rather than the biological child or sibling of her father/brother is hardly a psychological surprise.

***

Buffy wasn't born in a reservation, there is no Native North American blood in her and she fabulated circumstances/incidents indicating otherwise. All of that can be assumed true, yet she can still consider herself and be viewed as part of Native North American culture and heritage. The CBC show would have been much better had it not skipped that salient point completely.

PS: Let's stick with movie scenarios ... Imagine a wagon trek of white settlers massacred and - of course - scalped  by bloodthirsty Injuns. Everyone is killed, but one Indian Brave feels compassion for a blond baby girl wailing in a wagon and takes her home to his Indian Squaw who just lost a child - I SAID THIS IS A MOVIE SCRIPT !  ;) - and they raise her as one of her own. 20 years later she's all beautiful and as her Tipi village gets raided by the US Cavalry she's (once again!) one of the few survivors. The US Cavalry Captain leading the raid, stunned by her flowing blond hair, seeks her out from the prisoners and says: "You're no Injun, you're a white woman, what did those savages do to you?!".

Do you agree with the Captain? CBC does.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on October 27, 2023, 09:09:39 PM
Re your movie script: it happened in real life. Google Quanah Parker.

The show made it clear that she is an accepted member of a tribe (adopted) and that she has championed indigenous causes. But she is definitely not of indigenous blood. The fact is that a good bit of her career is built on false claims.  She took honors she didn't deserve, and that took away from others. It may not be as bad as Carrie Bourassa (mentioned briefly) and others who got tens of thousands in scholarship money, prestigious positions in academia with large salaries and grants, etc. But it's bad. And the threats show how morally lost she is.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 28, 2023, 05:39:34 AM
If she received any monetary support on the basis of being a born Native North American, then she is no better than a welfare fraud. OTOH, I wonder what these apparently "DNA Indians" are so obsessively digging for if she's indeed an accepted member of a tribe, DNA or no DNA. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

That said, this whole white (I don't see a lot of Blacks claiming to be part-Red) romanticized yearning for immersion in North American Native culture (prevalent in Germany too) is to me a form of adult escapism and listless search for spirituality. North American Natives were treated horribly by white migrants (that is what they were and nothing else, people tend to forget) and their land was stolen from them (I don't subscribe to the preposterous and convenient views that lack of a nation state organisation or the fact that personal ownership of things is not a focal point of your culture exclude you from having a right to the land you live on, no thank you, Ayn Rand, another migrant btw), but the way their culture and development was, it would have had a hard time surviving against any form of more organized intrusive culture - and if it had been the Egyptians, the Persians, the Romans, the Mongols, the Ottoman Empire, Napoleon or for that matter the Mayas, Incas or Aztecs that had invaded North America. Even without guns, killing off the buffalo or smallpox. You can't turn a whole culture (or several of them) into a protected species and seal it off from the world. People aren't exotic animals and cultures aren't inert. That doesn't mean you get to slaughter them though.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: morrow on October 28, 2023, 08:47:37 AM


She’s done much to espouse native causes. A lot of good work over the years.

I was surprised watching the show last night. But for me it does not diminish what she’s accomplished.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 28, 2023, 09:26:22 AM
Re your movie script: it happened in real life. Google Quanah Parker.


I had no idea, danke!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Cynthia_Ann_Parker_Gravestone.jpg)
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on October 29, 2023, 10:23:10 PM
I had no idea, danke!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Cynthia_Ann_Parker_Gravestone.jpg)

She died of a broken heart.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on October 29, 2023, 10:50:28 PM
Further on the Buffy story:

I started a thread about this at TDPRI. Apparently the thread went off the rails that night and it was deleted. But I did see the first response, from a member who stated that she never misrepresented herself. That's utter bullcrap. For more than half a century, she's represented herself as being born on the Piapot reservation of unknown parents, knowing that it was a lie. Although it's true that she was adopted into the tribe, that doesn't make her indigenous. And does anyone seriously think that she would have been adopted into the tribe if she had told them that she was a Caucasian of Italian/English ancestry?

I got a PM at TDPRI from a member who's an enrolled Cherokee citizen. He believes that the majority of people don't think that fake Indians are a problem and don't like that Indians have protected treaty and legal rights. I agree with him.

I don't believe the story about her brother abusing her, not for one second. She's lied about everything else and threatened retaliation for years, why would anyone believe this could be true? Now, sometimes an abused person doesn't speak up right away, but there's proof that she had a warm relationship many years after the abuse supposedly happened. No way would I ever believe that this happened.

It's a shame because IMHO it overshadows her talent and her good work.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2023, 04:55:09 AM
I'm not a Yank, so it's none of my business, Germany has its own ample share of skeletons in the closet, tens of millions of them.

But considering what "you" (= US-Americans with a migratory Caucasian background somewhere in the past, a lot of them ethnic Germans, I'm aware of that) took from North American Indigenous people, a bunch of protected treaty and legal rights for them today have given you on balance one hell of a good deal. Try finding another geographic expanse like North America and, especially, the US of A to take over. In other parts of the world, most Caucasian migrants were eventually evicted from the colonies they conquered, but you guys stayed by sheer numbers and an invasive expansive culture + technology geared toward domination. Tell me when the US is so broke that it can no longer afford special treatment of the few Native Americans "you" have left, I think it will be a while. Until that happens "you" can keep coping with "your" guilt for, say, another 100 or 200 years by granting them a special status that is a much belated pittance of a compensation for what "you" took.

People are so caught up in the here and now that they sometimes miss the historical perspective (not just a US issue I hasten to add). Would have European settlers said "No, thanks, way too expensive, we're going back home then." if the Indigenous People of North America had welcomed them with the comment "You're all free to settle here, that's fine, but in a few hundred years down the line, we'll expect some lucrative gambling casino operation licenses in return after you have killed most of us and relegated our culture to a few reservations!"?

Am I being unreasonable?

PS: Re Buffy, I think she certainly created an image of being bio-indigenous (out of a sense of wishing to belong, is that so terrible?) and I don't have a memory of her stating "According to my birth certificate I'm the biological daughter of my Italian parents, but I always doubted that and believe I was adopted." That would have perhaps been more forthright. A DNA test today could of course answer a lot of questions (last I heard the Cree never invaded Italy), but I understand that at her age and with the activist life she has lived, she perhaps doesn't want that clarity. I respect that. If someone told me today that my daughter or my son weren't co-conceived by me and that I should get a DNA test to prove it, I'd say "Are you out of your frigging mind, why should I care about that?!" I get uneasy with the DNA obsession some of the "true biological" Native North Americans show in that Canadian TV report show: Do we now have Class A and Class B tribe members? Germany's past of biological race determination throws a long shadow with me. The CBC show tried hard to portray the estranged family as being bullied and victimized, it made me wonder what would have needed to have happened in my family if my daughter now went round telling everyone that she's adopted and a descendant of Vietnamese boat people and whether I would really have the urge to "set the record straight" in public. Whiffs très of sublimation to me - from all sides.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Sigmund_Freud_1926.jpg/440px-Sigmund_Freud_1926.jpg)
Chief Sigmund, no Native American DNA reported, but still a
man of great wisdom and insight.


And I don't think anyone of us can form an informed opinion on whether the abuse allegations are fact or fiction. I'd also caution anyone to jump from "She lied about being Native American." to a convenient "Then she must have lied about being abused too." All liars sometimes tell the truth. And Dave, that's another thing Chief Sigmund would tell you, having an outward "warm relationship" doesn't rule out prior abuse, people come to terms or cope with, suppress and displace the most horrible things. Just watch this movie sometime, very thought-provoking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af6VbPT5O4k

(Without spoiling too much, Laura Dern plays a woman who as a very young teen was sexually groomed and abused by a (not related to her) attractive couple, but she has stored it away as "I was almost a full-grown woman at that point and wanted it too."-Lolita type incident because she just won't allow herself to be a victim. The movie recounts how in fact she was - visibly - still a child back then and how her sexual encounter was not co-spawned by any budding adolescent sexual inquisitiveness on her part, it was forced on her. The film contrasts how she really looked and acted back then i.e. what really happened with her false memories of it.)


That said, if Buffy was abused as a child by her Caucasian relatives then that might give her motivation to long for a Native American ancestry, but it would not make her any more or any less an "Indian".

PPS: You're not alone, Dave, Edith agrees with you that Buffy's a sham re the assumed ancestry and denying her true own.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on October 30, 2023, 08:17:50 AM
Well, I'm happy that Edith agrees with me.

There's no way Buffy Sainte-Marie could ever convince me that she was abused.

Those you call "true biological" Native North Americans aren't obsessed with DNA, They accept enrolled tribal members unless there's reason to believe that they achieved that status by fraud, or that they're lying about being enrolled.

IMHO Pretendians cause real harm. It's good that Jacqueline Keeler and others are rooting them out.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2023, 08:56:15 AM
I will from here on now identify as a Led Zeppelin fan.

What is and what has always been ...

(https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m81f872T1z1qdqzl4o1_500.gif)
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2023, 09:33:55 AM
PS: Is Francesca Cree too?

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57cec06debbd1afd7c1eaf07/1683907894608-UUXGPT4V3XLXHGLY9EDD/Francesca+Alinovi.002.jpeg?format=1500w)
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: morrow on October 30, 2023, 03:00:26 PM
I found this interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/663419805777170
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2023, 03:43:32 PM
What is she saying? I'm not on facebook, so I can't hear the audio.

*******

“It's not the full story,” another resident told CTV News, when asked about the CBC documentary. “So for me, my prayer is for the family that have claimed Buffy.”

Many online are taking Sainte-Marie’s side, adding to the debate about “Pretendians” and cultural appropriation.

“There’s basically two camps,” a Regina resident told CTV News.

“Some people entirely defending Buffy and another group that are really upset with her and they feel betrayed.”


Is it still possible in this day and age of extreme positions to neither "defend her entirely" nor be "really upset and feel betrayed"? I think it's unfortunate that she felt the need to, uhum, embellish her CV, not exactly role model behavior for anyone nor for the cause. But is it beyond comprehension and a look into the moral abyss of human depravation?


(furtively) Are jokes still allowed?

Meanwhile new details pertaining to
Buffy's true ancestry have come to
light ...



(https://img3.pillowfort.social/posts/38dae98beccb_Buffy%20and%20Big%20Bird%208%20compressed.gif)
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Ken on October 30, 2023, 05:10:16 PM
Has Big Bird chimed in on the matter?
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2023, 05:29:52 PM
He doesn't give interviews anymore ever since he was accused of messaging black stereotypes.

(https://th-thumbnailer.cdn-si-edu.com/HbF1M9YIKLNRk7mKxOcbIRU9yko=/fit-in/1072x0/filters:focal(878x1706:879x1707)/https://tf-cmsv2-smithsonianmag-media.s3.amazonaws.com/filer/42/34/4234f379-7014-4f99-a1d3-38635468b053/gettyimages-517399102.jpg)

True fact: When Sesame Street first ran in Germany in 1972 (undubbed and with the original inner-city 'brownstones & garbage cans' vintage Harlem neighborhood), our German English teacher told us we could do no better for our English than watch that show. I really liked it - and especially Big Bird! The show became such a success even in its original form that German TV decided to adapt it. German-dubbed episodes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwFMjJodxP4

and ones made specifically for the German market with original German language spoken by a German host team - never as good as those early US ones - would follow.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Ken on October 30, 2023, 05:32:51 PM
Fake news!  Big Bird loves everyone!
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2023, 05:36:41 PM
That's what I meant, a real Uncle Tom. All feathery in his appalling lack of
class consciousness and subservient attempts to appeal to the white masters!

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o7bu62Dh8y53bwZag/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on October 30, 2023, 07:12:32 PM
@uwe: Come on now, let's not get overdramatic and carried away. No one is accusing Buffy Saint- Marie of sinking into the moral depths of human degradation.

@morrow: her story is interesting, but I see it as irrelevant to Buffy Saint-Marie's situation. Buffy isn't claiming that she was misled by the Santamaria family. The birth certificate is real. Nothing about her claims adds up.

Meanwhile, she has responded. She's defiant, and she's still obfuscating, not denying. The statement by the Piapot in support of her is ludicrous, calling the accusations against her colonial and racist. For pity's sake, the people who found her out are Indians who are doing the opposite.

She could have saved face by admitting the truth and asking for forgiveness. Looks like it's too late for that now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UsyEnIpuCQ

Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: lowend1 on October 30, 2023, 07:37:41 PM
Some people like to make up shit about themselves. In grammar school, there was a kid to used to tell us that he had the Mach 5 in his garage and that Gigantor was stored in his attic (supposedly the roof of his house slid open so G could get out). If they aren't called out for it early on, the lies get bigger, and after a time they can't go back out the way they came - so they expand and embellish until it becomes a pseudo-reality. I'd be interested in knowing if she engaged in this kind of stuff as a kid.

I have a hard time getting all twisted up about the business of "stolen land". There is significant evidence in studies that there are no truly "indigenous" people in the US anyway - that everyone's presence here is a result of migrations that can go back 30,000 years - from Eurasia (via the Bering Land Bridge) or South America on the west coast and the Nordic countries on the east. I also don't place a lot of stock in the theory that people spontaneously leapt into existence from hot springs (that's probably as likely as the Gigantor story). At the time America was colonized/settled, territory or land was acquired by, well, taking it. Sometimes you had to fight to maintain what you already had because there was no means of proving that it belonged to you. This was common among Indian tribes as well - somebody showed up, said "I'm taking this" and the battle was joined. There were no land deeds, no mortgage bankers and no Century 21 offices in the center of town. No lawyers, either - cough, cough. That is not an excuse or mean that it was right - that's just the way it was. We can't view yesterday's transgressions through the prism of today's standards.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 30, 2023, 07:47:56 PM
There were no original indigenous people in North America, so the Asian Nomads from Siberia who walked or shipped over the Bering Land Bridge/Sea were the first humans in North America and took the not-yet-owned-by-anyone land. All ownership has to start somewhere, legal documentation or even the cultural ability to keep written records about it is irrelevant.

One look at indigenous Siberians tells you where "Indians" came from:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/No-nb_bldsa_3f048_Nentser_%28folkegruppe%29_kvinner_og_barn_foran_inngangen_til_teltet_sitt._%286435260555%29.jpg)

And they were "here" (meaning North America) first.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on October 30, 2023, 09:19:02 PM
The history of mankind has been the movement of groups or tribes into the territories occupied by other groups or tribes. Nothing new there. As for who was in the Americas first and where they came from, that's still speculative. There's some evidence that tribes from the south Pacific sailed to South America before anyone walked across a land bridge.

But that's irrelevant to this situation. Indians have certain treaty rights and statutory rights. You don't have to agree with it, but it's reality. In the US, at least, they aren't demanding their lands back. But they do want their legal rights respected. 
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 31, 2023, 06:52:57 AM
"As for who was in the Americas first and where they came from, that's still speculative. There's some evidence that tribes from the south Pacific sailed to South America before anyone walked across a land bridge."

Yes, I was aware of that, maybe they even came both from the Northern tip and the Pacific Region. What has always bothered me with the "They came from the South"-theory is that the Aztecs and Mayas at least (not the Incas, however they used strings with knots to keep a record of things) had a system of glyphs that can pass as archaic script/writing. No such thing among North American Natives. Also that South/Middle American tendency for assembling in vast civilizations (Aztecs, Mayas, Incas) was apparently never repeated in North America. It seems to me that even the earliest North Americans already had a dislike for central government!!!  :mrgreen:

You're all Injuns at heart.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Ken on October 31, 2023, 09:30:37 AM
There were no original indigenous people in North America, so the Asian Nomads from Siberia who walked or shipped over the Bering Land Bridge/Sea were the first humans in North America and took the not-yet-owned-by-anyone land. All ownership has to start somewhere, legal documentation or even the cultural ability to keep written records about it is irrelevant.

But do they have a flag?
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: gearHed289 on October 31, 2023, 09:36:14 AM
I was brought up believing that Bugs Moran was my grandfather's cousin. It wasn't until the internet came along that I had any reason to not believe it. Turns out Moran wasn't even Irish! (French immigrant father, Canadian mother). Some of my relatives still get twitchy when I give them the news.  :rolleyes: At best, grandpa Heslin may have been Moran's lawyer's cousin. The point to all this is, some people may innocently think they are something they're not. But I'm certainly not saying this applies to Ms. Sainte-Marie.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on October 31, 2023, 10:04:07 AM
But do they have a flag?

 :mrgreen: Mandatory to claim something for yourself that actually belongs to everyone!

(https://media.tenor.com/xKoW8Ou4ZZMAAAAd/moon-flag.gif)

Luckily you never really went there. Candace Owens, a woman of great insight and perception, said so to Bill Maher so now I'm convinced too.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: lowend1 on October 31, 2023, 06:54:21 PM
All ownership has to start somewhere, legal documentation or even the cultural ability to keep written records about it is irrelevant.

"Possession is nine-tenths of the law." Or so they say, anyhow.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on November 02, 2023, 07:22:13 AM
Turns out that Buffy's younger sister took a DNA test, and she is genetically related to Buffy's son Cody (Dakota Starblanket Wolfchild). Also, turns out that Cody has been stating for several years that his mother is Indian by adoption, not by birth.

Also, her 1982 marriage certificate to Jack Nitsche, which she signed, says she was born in Stoneham, Massachusetts. That's information that she provided.

I think that settles it.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on November 02, 2023, 08:03:03 AM
In that case there seems to have been, uhum, some variation in what she told/projected to people and authorities over the years.  :-X

Once she is lifted up where she belongs, the Manitou will no doubt forgive her, being the magnanimous type.

At least she hasn’t claimed a direct DNA lineage to George Armstrong Custer, I find that consoling.

I remember Big Bird being bewildered by Cody's sudden appearance on Sesame Street, there was a
twinge of jealousy too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2RwZW2j3-U

Given how breastfeeding mothers really didn't occur on US screens until then, it was also very
educational, but then that was always something Sesame Street excelled at. These days, someone
would certainly be up in arms how inappropriate this is for a children's show. Progress has setbacks.
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: Dave W on November 02, 2023, 09:57:52 PM
In that case there seems to have been, uhum, some variation in what she told/projected to people and authorities over the years.  :-X

Once she is lifted up where she belongs, the Manitou will no doubt forgive her, being the magnanimous type.

At least she hasn’t claimed a direct DNA lineage to George Armstrong Custer, I find that consoling.

I remember Big Bird being bewildered by Cody's sudden appearance on Sesame Street, there was a
twinge of jealousy too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2RwZW2j3-U

Given how breastfeeding mothers really didn't occur on US screens until then, it was also very
educational, but then that was always something Sesame Street excelled at. These days, someone
would certainly be up in arms how inappropriate this is for a children's show. Progress has setbacks.

Baby Cody was also shown naked, being bathed. Today, the authorities would be called.

For that matter, back then the Sesame Street kids went on adventures that would horrify today's helicopter parents.

Sesame Street today.  ;)

(https://i.imgur.com/APV7ers.jpg)
Title: Re: Buffy Sainte-Marie
Post by: uwe on November 03, 2023, 09:38:54 AM
True, but if he went to a Florida school he wouldn‘t be allowed to see a nipple either, even if Michelangelo sculpted it. Between cancellation from left and right, there seems to be no curriculum left in the middle.

I‘m not satisfied until they teach about Robert E. Lee‘s hidden uniform fetish gay sex life again!