Author Topic: More on the Gibson raid  (Read 23340 times)

nofi

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #135 on: November 05, 2011, 02:26:21 PM »
there was a fanzine back in the ninties that explained why sting is responsible for all the wrong in the world. it was called 'blame it on sting' or something like that.
"life is a blur of republicans and meat"- zippy the pinhead

uwe

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2011, 10:32:11 AM »
The Lacey Act kills rock music, but Gibson will prevent it:

"Gibson Announces 'Fight For Your Right to Rock' Contests

Gibson Guitar Corp. has announced the "Fight For Your Right To Rock!" contests. Participants can submit a video, original song or logo expressing how the Lacey Act can be made fair. Contributors will have the opportunity to win a customized Gibson USA Les Paul Standard adorned with the winning logo. On August 24, 2011, agents from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service raided Gibson facilities and seized more than 10,000 guitar fingerboards made from Indian rosewood, along with computers and other records. At issue is the Lacey Act, which was amended in 2008 to prevent trafficking in illegally harvested or illegally exported plants. However, Gibson has complied with Indian law and no concerns have been raised by the Indian government. "Through this contest we're asking people to lend their voice so that those in power understand that there's true concern," said Gibson Chairman and CEO Henry Juszkiewicz. "To be clear, we're not looking to abolish the Lacey Act — we're asking that it be amended — that it be made fair and clear.""

Quite. Two thoughts though:

1. I wonder whether the prize guitar ("LP Agent Orange Signature") will have an ebony or rosewood board to which "Indian Authorities" have agreed?

2. May I submit a cover of the Beasty Boys "You gotta fight - For your Right - Without foooooooilage"

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Highlander

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2011, 12:51:48 PM »
Videos...? wood could be fun...

Indian wood, Isn't it good... The Woodworms
It woodn't have made any diffference... Wood Rundgren
Wooden it be nice... The Beech Boys
Big Log... Rubber Plant

... and of course, no discussion concerning wood wood be complete without the correct sourcing of the pwooduct... I have a fwiend in Wome called Biggus Choppus... possibwy with his best luthier by his side...



Of course, I might be barking up the wrong twee... ;D

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Dave W

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2011, 03:17:28 PM »
Quote
However, Gibson has complied with Indian law and no concerns have been raised by the Indian government.

 :rolleyes:

I see Henry's disinformation campaign is still going.

uwe

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #139 on: November 07, 2011, 04:33:02 AM »
No complaints have been voiced from the Indians.



Seriously, that campaign is so incredibly dumb and self-mutilating. I bet that for every Lacey Act opponent/"I don't give a damn where the wood comes from as long as it's rosewood or ebony" there is a Gibsonite with conservationist leanings. You don't alienate parts of your customer base like that.

I'm no tree hugger but given the option of using a wood that is environmentally less dubious than ebony or rosewood, I'll gladly take a bass with preciosa or baked maple or whatever board.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 04:42:55 AM by uwe »
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the mojo hobo

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #140 on: November 07, 2011, 06:05:08 AM »

I'm no tree hugger but given the option of using a wood that is environmentally less dubious than ebony or rosewood, I'll gladly take a bass with preciosa or baked maple or whatever board.


I wholeheartily agree.

Psycho Bass Guy

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #141 on: November 07, 2011, 03:36:52 PM »
:rolleyes:

I see Henry's disinformation campaign is still going.

Bullshit sells... and better than Gibson basses.

Dave W

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #142 on: November 16, 2011, 09:50:43 PM »
McClatchy has a new article.

Same old same old from Henry, with a couple of other things I don't remember seeing before: first, that Theodor Nagel GmbH (who apparently own Luthiers Mercantile) filed for bankruptcy after the raid. Not sure exactly what that will mean in the long run, but at least LMI is still operating for now. Also, some comments from Bob Taylor and his supply chain manager. They obviously think they can live with the 2008 amendments and have taken steps to make sure of their supply.

uwe

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #143 on: November 17, 2011, 07:45:39 AM »
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/gibson-guitar-ignites-debate-over-environmental-protections/2011/11/11/gIQAACDtIN_print.html

So a Democrat congress man is now advocating a change to the Lacey Act - how does that fit into the dark conspiracy theories?

And that internal Gibson email about the "Madagascar grey market" where wood can still be obtained ain't too great either.  :-\


"To win GOP support, Cooper wrote a bill that covers far more than musicians. It would remove requirements for retailers and manufacturers bringing in non-solid wood products — such as pulp and paper — to identify their source, as well as prevent the confiscation of illegally logged wood from someone who did not knowingly possess it.

Environmentalists, forest product manufacturers, union officials and several lawmakers warned that revamping the Lacey Act could have profound economic and ecological consequences.

Northland Forest Products chief executive Jameson S. French, who helped push for the 2008 amendment, said the measure “sent the message to the global business community that the U.S. meant business about no illegal wood products being brought into this country.”

The American Forest and Paper Association estimates that illegal logging costs the U.S. timber and wood products industry $1 billion a year, and it opposes any immediate change to the Lacey Act. French said America’s grade lumber exports have soared in recent years as overseas suppliers look for hardwood products that can reenter the United States without a problem.

The environmental stakes are high as well. National parks in Madagascar have been decimated by illegal logging since a 2009 coup d’etat created political disarray there. In places such as Masoala National Park, a reserve affilated with the Zurich Zoo, poorly paid poachers create trails into the forest, consume forest lemurs and flying foxes to sustain themselves and fell five trees for every one of precious wood they take because ebony and rosewood timber cannot float on their own.

Part of the drive to retool the Lacey Act stems from its requirement that businesses take “due care” to ensure their suppliers were not violating the law in the wood’s country of origin. Langer calls the requirement “onerous.”

Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D-Ore.), who co-authored the 2008 amendment, said responsible businesses shouldn’t have a compliance problem. “The whole concept here was to promote people being more conscious of what happened in their supply chain,” he said.

Gibson and other major guitar manufacturers conducted a fact-finding mission in Madagascar in 2008. Taylor Guitars and Martin Guitars stopped obtaining wood from Madagascar, but according to an e-mail that has surfaced in the federal probe, a Gibson employee wrote that a local supplier could still obtain ebony from “the gray market.”Juszkiewicz — who backs Cooper’s bill but is still seeking changes in it that would provide U.S. firms with greater certainty about what wood is acceptable to import — said he believes it is possible to obtain legitimately harvested wood from Madagascar. He said he decided to keep buying there because he doesn’t see “prohibition” as an answer. “How does that fix the problem?” he asked, adding that a better approach is to say, “We want to buy the wood from you, but we only want to buy the wood that’s good.”

Alexander Von Bismarck, who as executive director of the D.C.-based nonprofit Environmental Investigation Agency documented the illegal timber trade in Madagascar, said the country doesn't need that kind of help.

“We found that the money that flows to the timber barons is systematically moved overseas while the logger in Madagascar gets a few dollars a day to break into a national park and steal wood,” he wrote in an e-mail. “That’s not supporting development, that’s just supporting crime.”  "

We've taken too much for granted ... and all the time it had grown ...
From techno seeds we first planted ... evolved a mind of its own ...

Dave W

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #144 on: November 17, 2011, 08:11:23 AM »
That Democratic congressman also opposed the 2008 amendments. And his district includes Nashville.

The whole Madagascar situation makes Gibson looks bad. Especially that email.
Quote
French said America’s grade lumber exports have soared in recent years as overseas suppliers look for hardwood products that can reenter the United States without a problem.

That's a good thing.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:46:30 PM by Dave W »

dadagoboi

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #145 on: November 17, 2011, 08:49:14 AM »
"French said America’s grade lumber exports have soared in recent years as overseas suppliers look for hardwood products that can reenter the United States without a problem."

IMO that's a BAD thing.  Historically, Colonies export raw lumber.  Nations export value added PRODUCTS which produce a lot more wealth.

Top quality veneer logs have been exported for years from the USA to Japan to be made into products sold back to US consumers among other uses, rock maple also (I just bought 5 MIJ "Fender" necks made of it).  Neither Germany or China exports much raw material, they are buyers.  They seem to understand the value of the manufacturing sector of their economies, not to mention education in things other than finance and lawyering.  Look at the makeup of the US "Economic Panel" for an example of how clueless Washington is.

Dave W

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2011, 09:03:57 AM »
"French said America’s grade lumber exports have soared in recent years as overseas suppliers look for hardwood products that can reenter the United States without a problem."

IMO that's a BAD thing.  Historically, Colonies export raw lumber.  Nations export value added PRODUCTS which produce a lot more wealth.

Top quality veneer logs have been exported for years from the USA to Japan to be made into products sold back to US consumers among other uses, rock maple also (I just bought 5 MIJ "Fender" necks made of it).  Neither Germany or China exports much raw material, they are buyers.  They seem to understand the value of the manufacturing sector of their economies, not to mention education in things other than finance and lawyering.  Look at the makeup of the US "Economic Panel" for an example of how clueless Washington is.

I would agree with you in that context. But that situation wasn't caused by timber laws. Given that the manufacturing is already over there, strictly in the context of being able to reimport the finished goods without problem, the law has helped.

Now, if we prohibited exporting US woods, some manufacturing would come back here. You know that's not going to happen, though.

dadagoboi

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #147 on: November 17, 2011, 09:16:29 AM »
I would agree with you in that context. But that situation wasn't caused by timber laws. Given that the manufacturing is already over there, strictly in the context of being able to reimport the finished goods without problem, the law has helped.

Now, if we prohibited exporting US woods, some manufacturing would come back here. You know that's not going to happen, though.

You're absolutely right, Dave.  Manufacturing jobs of almost any kind are not coming back.  Interestingly enough, wood furniture production is on the upswing in the US, due mainly to increasing labor expenses in China and shipping costs.  Unfortunately very few consumers in the rest of the world yearn for what is considered mainstream furniture here.

There's a large IKEA plant being built in the US, I would guess highly automated and probably for mostly kitchens.   IKEA sells more complete kitchens in the US than any other company.

OldManC

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #148 on: November 19, 2011, 12:35:32 PM »
I don't want a Gibson bass with a maple board that's been painted black, so I hope Henry gets his shite together soon and finds a way to work within whatever boundaries have been dictated to him by the law.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 04:48:51 PM by Dave W »

Bionic-Joe

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Re: More on the Gibson raid
« Reply #149 on: November 19, 2011, 01:50:50 PM »
I've got a great idea....How about...we all talk about Gibson basses...instead of Political crap???? Capeesh??