The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: lowend1 on October 23, 2018, 11:02:45 AM
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I didn't see this posted anywhere else here, soooo...
http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/News/en-us/Gibson-Brands-Leadership-Press-Release-2018.aspx?fbclid=IwAR1XMXp8pkf4WnTt0GBCF3vy0_6pMn3g-WIYpF54Y0vmWw4XydZZw4sM2U8
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Company press releases are always optimistic, aren't they? But after reading Curleigh's comments in the Nashville Post article, I'm optimistic too. https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/manufacturing/article/21028533/levis-leader-picked-to-be-gibson-ceo
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It does sound good - A nice change at last!
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Premier Guitar has an artcle about it as well...
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28071-gibson-announces-new-ceo?utm_source=Premier+Guitar&utm_campaign=2077c0f527-EM
Fingers and toes crossed...
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I just hope they take someone on who reads discussion groups like this one and try to engage with their customer base. I'm a member of the UK Basschat (and a casual browser of Talkbass), it's a great thing when manufacturers chip in - Tech 21 regularly post to Basschat.
Thing is, until they actually listen to what people want, they're always going to fail eventually. I know full well they have a business to run, but do they honestly need to flood an already saturated market with thousands of rebooted Les Paul models year in, year out? Probably not. I might actually be a good thing if they ceased production for a couple of years...it worked in the 1960s.
Ultimately (and I use the collective 'we' here, despite not currently owning a Gibson in any guise), what do we, as bassists, actually want from Gibson, because I have a significant wedge of money just burning a hole in my pocket. In recent years, we've gone from a period where nobody wanted a Thunderbird to a point where every Tom, Dick and Harry is playing one (which was largely why I bailed and started buying Lulls). In my gigging years I've never played with anyone (either as support or headliner) that's used any other Gibson model; not a single EB or SG-Bass variant. Add to this that pretty much every bass other than their core range seems to have either been short lived or abject failure.
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I'll be honest, hearing a Levi's exec is in charge actually sounds promising. Levi's is one of the few brands I'm actually somewhat loyal to. Funny enough, there's actually a decent parallel between the two, as both Gibson and Levi's draw on their heritage products for their current product line. Levi's Vintage Clothing line makes some excellent reissues of their old clothes, they really know how to go through their archives and accurately reproduce items. They also seem to be pretty good at introducing new products while maintaining the integrity of their core line, instead of going whole hog on some hair-brained idea and ditching the things everybody loves. And that's what I want to see with Gibson: a core, stable primary product line with little alteration (maybe some, even Levi's occasionally updates fits to best suit current trends), while still trying out some new ideas (ones that make sense) and maintaining the integrity of their heritage.
Edit: I see JC actually mentions my point in the second article.
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A pair of Levi's Vintage 501s sells on their site for $285, and they are imported. While they may mirror Gibson in that their legacy products are ridiculously overpriced, at least Gibson makes the product in the US - for now, anyway... :rolleyes:
https://www.levi.com/US/en_US/levis-vintage-clothing/levis-vintage-clothing-for-men/c/levi_clothing_men_vintage_clothing_us?ab=collectionsLP_LVC_shopmen_082119
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I just hope they take someone on who reads discussion groups like this one and try to engage with their customer base. I'm a member of the UK Basschat (and a casual browser of Talkbass), it's a great thing when manufacturers chip in - Tech 21 regularly post to Basschat.
Thing is, until they actually listen to what people want, they're always going to fail eventually. I know full well they have a business to run, but do they honestly need to flood an already saturated market with thousands of rebooted Les Paul models year in, year out? Probably not. I might actually be a good thing if they ceased production for a couple of years...it worked in the 1960s.
Ultimately (and I use the collective 'we' here, despite not currently owning a Gibson in any guise), what do we, as bassists, actually want from Gibson, because I have a significant wedge of money just burning a hole in my pocket. In recent years, we've gone from a period where nobody wanted a Thunderbird to a point where every Tom, Dick and Harry is playing one (which was largely why I bailed and started buying Lulls). In my gigging years I've never played with anyone (either as support or headliner) that's used any other Gibson model; not a single EB or SG-Bass variant. Add to this that pretty much every bass other than their core range seems to have either been short lived or abject failure.
Gibson's musical instruments business is profitable now despite Henry. No reason to think it will fail. If you think new Les Pauls and SGs aren't still very much in demand, you're not looking in the right places. I'm a member at MyLesPaul forums; between the complaints about Gibson you'll see lots of enthusiasm for new ones. And that's not even the largest Gibson-oriented forum.
I don't doubt that the TBird has been Gibson's best seller but I haven't seen one gigged here for years (and that one was in a band from out of state) but I do see EB/SG basses. You can't draw conclusions from one local scene.
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A pair of Levi's Vintage 501s sells on their site for $285, and they are imported. While they may mirror Gibson in that their legacy products are ridiculously overpriced, at least Gibson makes the product in the US - for now, anyway... :rolleyes:
https://www.levi.com/US/en_US/levis-vintage-clothing/levis-vintage-clothing-for-men/c/levi_clothing_men_vintage_clothing_us?ab=collectionsLP_LVC_shopmen_082119
Levi Strauss moved manufacturing overseas a couple of decades ago, long before Mr. Curleigh joined the company. You can't be a big player in the clothing industry otherwise.
Gibson moved its lower priced line overseas almost 50 years ago. They just didn't label them Gibsons. The American-made guitar is an icon, there's no chance that new management will destroy that even if they decide to label some imports with the Gibson brand.
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I think this is very positive and I also saw the parallels between Levi's and Gibson.
And how appropriate it is that The Savior's initials are JC? Like Dutch soccer legend Johan Cruijff and that bloke who features in the second part of the bible.
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Levi's lost my business at least ten years ago when leans that were still rather new would have the belt loops break in the wash. Since then I have only used Union Line jeans from All USA Clothing. They are much more durable and do not cost any more than Levi's at JC Penny.
https://allusaclothing.com/mens/bottoms/union-line-25305-denim-jeans-usa-made.html
I don't see myself buying a new Gibson bass anytime soon as I already have too many.
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I do love my Levi's 527 jeans. ;D
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I buy Levis 559 jeans used on Ebay for $20 or less. Don't really care where they're made.
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Levi's lost my business at least ten years ago when leans that were still rather new would have the belt loops break in the wash
I like Levi's, fit wise, but quality, IME, has suffered of late. I bought a pair of 541s last year that started to tear at the at the rear pocket within a couple of months. To their credit, Levi's does have a 2-year warranty on their products, under which they have replaced two pairs of the above jeans (the first replacement started to tear in the same spot in around the same time frame). The last time around, I had them send me a pair that were not prewashed, and so far, so good.
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Levi's lost my business at least ten years ago when leans that were still rather new would have the belt loops break in the wash. Since then I have only used Union Line jeans from All USA Clothing. They are much more durable and do not cost any more than Levi's at JC Penny.
https://allusaclothing.com/mens/bottoms/union-line-25305-denim-jeans-usa-made.html
I don't see myself buying a new Gibson bass anytime soon as I already have too many.
Too many basses? I didn't know that was possible!
If Levis are $50 then I can see buying $50 American-made jeans as an alternative. But I buy regular fit Wranglers, $17 at Target and Walmart. I wear each pair about once a week and they last a couple of years. No complaints.
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I do love my Levi's 527 jeans. ;D
They're 26 better, right? ;D
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I buy Levis 559 jeans used on Ebay for $20 or less. Don't really care where they're made.
I'm a 516 guy all the way, but they stopped making them in 2004 or so. So it's ebay for me too :)
Strangely, they all are located in Germany. A weird collector, perhaps?
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I'm a 516 guy all the way, but they stopped making them in 2004 or so. So it's ebay for me too :)
Strangely, they all are located in Germany. A weird collector, perhaps?
We don't know any weird collectors is Germany, do we? :vader:
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Too many basses? I didn't know that was possible!
If Levis are $50 then I can see buying $50 American-made jeans as an alternative. But I buy regular fit Wranglers, $17 at Target and Walmart. I wear each pair about once a week and they last a couple of years. No complaints.
The room that the basses are in is slated for demolition in the spring, but when the project is complete there will be more room.
My jeans are 36" length which can't be found everywhere.
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Levi Strauss moved manufacturing overseas a couple of decades ago, long before Mr. Curleigh joined the company. You can't be a big player in the clothing industry otherwise.
Their old factory is less than 5 miles from my house.
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Levis can't top this. :mrgreen:
https://youtu.be/rwAfG1jmkDE
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:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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I haven't actually read this yet, but should be some interesting tidbits - http://msretailer.com/gibson-ceo-curleigh-interview/
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Good to hear he's listening. Hope he listens to some bass players too, at least ones like us.
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It sounds positive to me.
As the article says, he just took over on November 1st. Unfortunately there's no shortage of people of limited intelligence dumbasses who don't realize that instant change won't happen.
CME just announced a limited run of custom color SG Standards (https://reverb.com/news/gibson-releases-exclusive-custom-color-sg-standards-via-chicago-music-exchange), at no extra cost, and the Gibson bashers are already at it in the comments on Reverb. Not that Gibson didn't deserve bashing for Henry's disastrous last few years, they did, but that's over now; now the new Gibson is being trashed for offering a limited run. No pleasing some people. And there are the usual complaints about the price, even though the competition is that expensive or more.
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Those SGs look and sound pretty nice to me.
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CME just announced a limited run of custom color SG Standards (https://reverb.com/news/gibson-releases-exclusive-custom-color-sg-standards-via-chicago-music-exchange), at no extra cost, and the Gibson bashers are already at it in the comments on Reverb. Not that Gibson didn't deserve bashing for Henry's disastrous last few years, they did, but that's over now; now the new Gibson is being trashed for offering a limited run.
Haha, I wonder what they'd say if Gibson offered Les Paul Standard and Firebird in Sunburst along with SG and ES-335 in cherry only?
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Haha, I wonder what they'd say if Gibson offered Les Paul Standard and Firebird in Sunburst along with SG and ES-335 in cherry only?
I think you know the answer to that. :) With all the LP variations there are now, you still see complaints about features somebody wants on one model or another.
I just looked at the 1960 catalog on Jules' site. Gibson solidbodies that year were LP Standard in one sunburst finish, LP Custom with and without Bigsby in ebony, Special in two finishes, Junior in cherry and TV, and Melody Maker in sunburst. Gibson should go back to that just to hear all the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would happen.
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It sounds positive to me.
As the article says, he just took over on November 1st. Unfortunately there's no shortage of people of limited intelligence dumbasses who don't realize that instant change won't happen.
CME just announced a limited run of custom color SG Standards (https://reverb.com/news/gibson-releases-exclusive-custom-color-sg-standards-via-chicago-music-exchange), at no extra cost, and the Gibson bashers are already at it in the comments on Reverb. Not that Gibson didn't deserve bashing for Henry's disastrous last few years, they did, but that's over now; now the new Gibson is being trashed for offering a limited run. No pleasing some people. And there are the usual complaints about the price, even though the competition is that expensive or more.
Those SG Guitars are getting a bashing on a certain anti Gibson bass forum.
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Those SG Guitars are getting a bashing on a certain anti Gibson bass forum.
ffs, what a bunch of idiots (with some sane comments thrown in). :rolleyes: Gibson has been doing solidbody colors almost as long as Fender has, and the SG guitars are no exception. Just off the top of my head, the late 60s SG Melody Makers, the early 00s Platinum SG, the more recent army green Government SG, the red and blue SG Deluxe of the late 90s, etc., not to mention the special run of SG Basses for the Japanese market maybe 6 to 8 years ago. There's an original finish gray SG Firebrand on my local Craigslist, that's another one.
This special run isn't copying Fender colors. And it's just a special run for one dealership. Fender has also done special colors for CME.
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ffs, what a bunch of idiots (with some sane comments thrown in).
I think the only thing that would make that forum happy would be for Gibson to make instruments at Chinese import prices.
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I think the only thing that would make that forum happy would be for Gibson to make instruments at Chinese import prices.
That's probably also true over there for Rics and American made Fenders. No understanding of what goes into cost and pricing.
Irrational Gibson and MusicMan hatred is great sport at TB, but nothing beats the Ric threads I've seen there. If you want to talk pluses and minuses of owning a Ric, that's fair game. It's a strange company with features that are quaint to lot of players. I don't think it's fair game when somebody just asks a question and immediately dozens of posters chime in with a litany of everything they think is wrong, when it has nothing to do with whatever the question was. Very odd.
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Too many people (especially when they're online) don't understand when their subjective (and sometimes objective) opinions are totally unnecessary to post.
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I think the only thing that would make that forum happy would be for Gibson to make instruments at Chinese import prices.
Even that wouldn't suffice given what I've seen over the past two years that I've been on that forum. The amount of vitriol that the very mention of Gibson - and to a lesser extent, Rickenbacker - name brings is something that I'll never understand. But, I guess I'm an old dog who really doesn't understand Internet...
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Every article I read about the Gibson bankruptcy -- on business and financial sites, guitar magazine sites, Nashville newspaper sites -- made it clear that Gibson's guitar business was profitable, and that the problem was the debt from the consumer electronics companies Henry bought.
Yet in every thread I saw on every forum except ours, and on every music site where comments are allowed, loads of posters filled the threads with their opinions about what Gibson absolutely has to do to save its guitar business. Do these people not read the articles, or just have no ability to understand what they're reading? Or maybe it's just blind hatred of Gibson.
I'm sure the new management will make changes, hopefully they'll scrap Henry's plan to force innovation on everybody. Time will tell.
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Every article I read about the Gibson bankruptcy -- on business and financial sites, guitar magazine sites, Nashville newspaper sites -- made it clear that Gibson's guitar business was profitable, and that the problem was the debt from the consumer electronics companies Henry bought.
Yet in every thread I saw on every forum except ours, and on every music site where comments are allowed, loads of posters filled the threads with their opinions about what Gibson absolutely has to do to save its guitar business. Do these people not read the articles, or just have no ability to understand what they're reading?
It's the grand old American tradition of talking out of your ass to try and feel more important than you actually are.
I will say that Henry's firings of longtime staff and craftsmen probably did severe damage TO the instrument manufacturing side, so it may become indirectly relevant.
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Do these people not read the articles, or just have no ability to understand what they're reading? Or maybe it's just blind hatred of Gibson.
Hate. The origins of which I have yet to understand.
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I think it's mostly because those morons are too lazy to read beyond the headlines.
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Every article I read about the Gibson bankruptcy -- on business and financial sites, guitar magazine sites, Nashville newspaper sites -- made it clear that Gibson's guitar business was profitable, and that the problem was the debt from the consumer electronics companies Henry bought.
Yet in every thread I saw on every forum except ours, and on every music site where comments are allowed, loads of posters filled the threads with their opinions about what Gibson absolutely has to do to save its guitar business. Do these people not read the articles, or just have no ability to understand what they're reading? Or maybe it's just blind hatred of Gibson.
I'm sure the new management will make changes, hopefully they'll scrap Henry's plan to force innovation on everybody. Time will tell.
I think a lot of the animosity comes from Gibson hawking their guitars to the "blues lawyers". Lots of working people feel slighted by that marketing approach. I mean, how many guys do you see playing a $10K Les Paul in the local dive bar?
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I think a lot of the animosity comes from Gibson hawking their guitars to the "blues lawyers". Lots of working people feel slighted by that marketing approach. I mean, how many guys do you see playing a $10K Les Paul in the local dive bar?
Really? I don't think so. The majority of Gibson's marketing has been aimed at the more affordable end of the market, where the overwhelming amount of their sales are.
"Blues lawyers" are definitely Fender territory. SRV/Strat/tweed territory. You do see guys playing vintage and Custom Shop Strats in local bars.
Listen. :)
https://youtu.be/YgRmzlsAvQ4
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No need to gripe about what Henry may do next now that he's no longer in control, but I have to share this, from another forum.
"Henry J; The Answer Man to all the questions that nobody ever asks. The solution man to problems that don't exist, the guru to a lifestyle that nobody else lives in."
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Do these people not read the articles, or just have no ability to understand what they're reading? Or maybe it's just blind hatred of Gibson.
I think a lot of the blind hatred stems from a weird, oedipal desire to own Gibsons from people who can't afford them for whatever reason. I think the same applies to Rickenbacker instruments. Discuss Rickenbackers online for long enough and people will start suggesting Rickenbacker should start cheaper offshore production, and bring in a budget range. Or how Rickenbacker should reissue the 4005 and sell it for 4003 prices.
Yesterday some guy was whining on Facebook that Rickenbacker weren't manufacturing 4080 basses, and that RIC need to study supply and demand (big LOL). I pointed out that Paul W would build you a 4080 bass if you have the readies. Silence! People don't want answers, only reasons to complain about why they can't have the nice shiny thing tomorrow. Guitarists and bassists are good at imagining manufacturers have a moral obligation to make the instruments they want at a price they can afford.
As Dave points out, Gibson lost their shirt on the consumer electronics side of the business. They didn't go bankrupt because they had the audacity to charge more than $1000 for a guitar! Gibson brought out those weird 100-year Les Paul guitars with the hologram on the headstock, and my local Gibson retailer sold every last one of them. Gibson instruments clearly sell to somebody, if not noisy forum dwellers.
And finally, sit down with an inflation calculator and the 1959 Gibson catalog. Gibson prices are basically much the same as they were in 1959; guitarists are just generally too dim to realise this, and think that $265 in 1959 (the catalog price of a 'burst) is the same as $265 today. Probably the same people buy a $300 Chibson because it is "just as good", then spend $300 on pickups, $200 on components and hardware, $100 on a setup...
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I pointed out that Paul W would build you a 4080 bass if you have the readies. Silence! People don't want answers, only reasons to complain about why they can't have the nice shiny thing tomorrow.
THIS! ^^^
The 4005 comment is a good one as well. Some people have some kind of fantasy idea about how many of these things the company will actually be able to sell.
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Another article hinting that the new management will be a change of mindset. Does not mention basses though.
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/gibson-reveals-exciting-new-product-line-up-and-artist-collaborations-ahead-of-winter-namm-300781081.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/gibson-reveals-exciting-new-product-line-up-and-artist-collaborations-ahead-of-winter-namm-300781081.html)
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I've had several guitars that I bought in the past bookmarked in my browser. I just noticed that all of them have been erased & the beginning of the 2019 lineup seems to have taken their place. Almost as if the new management doesn't want to look back at the past, just look forward. When Henry J took things over from Norlin, they didn't seem interested in helping with information or parts from Norlin era guitars. Maybe that is happening again.
Here is what I had bookmarked from my ES Les Paul Bass...………..
https://www.gibson.com/Guitars/Les%20Paul
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I've had several guitars that I bought in the past bookmarked in my browser. I just noticed that all of them have been erased & the beginning of the 2019 lineup seems to have taken their place. Almost as if the new management doesn't want to look back at the past, just look forward. When Henry J took things over from Norlin, they didn't seem interested in helping with information or parts from Norlin era guitars. Maybe that is happening again.
Here is what I had bookmarked from my ES Les Paul Bass...………..
https://www.gibson.com/Guitars/Les%20Paul
Many pages are still available via the Wayback Machine archive https://archive.org/web/ -- at least for now.
It's understandable since the company is transition. Who knows about their long term plans for the website.
EDIT: found this from the June 29, 2017 archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20170628061451/http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2016/Memphis/ES-Les-Paul-Bass.aspx
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I talked to the two new bosses. The JC guy and the financial guy. Some short things:
- Almost every shop can be a dealer again. Just store some guitars.
- You can be a separate Epiphone dealer. With not many Gibson dealers around, I could hardly find an Epiphone either.
- If we talk SG and LP and such: there will be two versions: a correct vintage specs version for around 2.500 dollars and a modern version with split coils.
And I think Rob/Basvarken posted about the US Epiphones already?
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That's excellent news, Chris. I was really hoping they would change the ridiculous dealership requirements.
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No pleasing some people. And there are the usual complaints about the price, even though the competition is that expensive or more.
Its not the first time you have made such a comment re gibson pricing i the last week and i have to adress it. Being no more expensive than the competition is mot proof of fair pricing. It proves nothing at all. In fact some of the competitors youd point to are arguably higher end. And some more appropriate comparisons are cheaper, but still that means nothing. The undustry as a whole wants consumers to be used to higher prices because its better and easier for them. Collusion does not have to conscious or even active - it can just happen because goals align.
A great example of this is local microbrews. 50 to 100% more per can (pint/ tall boy) than my favorite quality imports. They have a marketting advantage ( differentiation) and they exploit it because they think they can. If they all do it theres no stopping it because it looks fair but is it? I have heard the arguments from barious appologists for this but none of it holds water. Its down to not wanting to wait as long to recoup startup investment and start turning a profit and it is gouging. The place on the back side of the block i live on for example sells 35l ( small cans) for up to $5 CA when my favorite imports are 2 - 2.75 for 500.
“What the market will bear” is also a crock because we find in reality the market will bear more than it should to the detriment of individuals.
Gibson could charge less, but they dont want to ( its the luxury / lifestyle branding. - doesnt work if its a bargain). As evidenced by the DcC Tribute and half their normal pruce ( they are not saving that much from the front mount thing and other manufacturing shortcuts alone).
I have monissues with limited runs, but it is fair to a point to crit those too - essentially a method to justify inflated pricing by way of simulated deliberate scarcity.
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Does that include spell checks too? :mrgreen:
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About a dozen years ago, maybe more, John Hall said at the Rick Resource Forum that something like 60% of the labor costs of a Ric are in the finishing department. I don't know the figures at Gibson, but there must be an enormous difference in man-hours between spraying a single color coat of nitro over an unfilled body, and the multi-step, multi-day process of pore filling and multiple color and clear coats, all with sanding in between. Whatever the difference is, the retail price is 3x-4x the raw manufacturing cost. The company has to make a gross profit when they price it to dealers.
Think about raw material pricing too. Wood product manufacturers of any size by lumber by the trainload or boatload. They pay x price per board foot for the whole load, but they don't plug that price into every piece. They cost the shipment by assigning more for the more valuable pieces -- e.g. in the case of a guitar, wider or with better figure -- to make up for the lower price the less desirable pieces will bring, and to cover unusable wood.
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I still remember cracking up when I saw this
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3vl75
... jesus I was 13 at the time. God I feel old now.
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^^^
Funny stuff! I don't remember seeing it before.