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Main Forums => The Outpost Cafe => Topic started by: uwe on August 20, 2018, 05:35:02 AM

Title: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on August 20, 2018, 05:35:02 AM
... at life's wondrous tales ...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/19/us/asia-argento-assault-jimmy-bennett.html

Just two comments:

1. Ms Argento: With all due respect, what a bigot (ooops, my mistake) hypocrite you are.

2. Little Jimmy Bennett: If  nothing worse than being on the receiving end of a blow job will rank among the troubling/crippling issues of your life, then I'm happy for you. Meanwhile, do choke on that money.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: 4stringer77 on August 20, 2018, 07:54:40 AM
I can understand hypocrite but how is she a bigot? Btw, they also had sex.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: gearHed289 on August 20, 2018, 08:25:15 AM
Hollyweirdos.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Dave W on August 20, 2018, 08:48:10 AM
What makes you think she's a bigot?

The age of consent issue is absurd (it's 16 here and in many other states). He was definitely old enough to understand consent. The real issue is whether or not it was consensual. I have my doubts. If it wasn't consensual, then she's certainly a hypocrite.

I'm not sure whether Hollywood or Washington DC is the bigger cesspool.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on August 20, 2018, 09:50:08 AM
Rosanna Arquette is suggesting the New York Times article may be a set-up.  Regardless of what may or may not have happened, the fact that Bennett's income went down after the incident is at the absolute bottom of my list of things to worry about in life. 

https://ew.com/movies/2018/08/20/rose-mcgowan-asia-argento/


'
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Pilgrim on August 20, 2018, 10:48:01 AM
After reading the article and the email exchanges cited, there's little doubt in my mind that both parties knew what they were doing.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on August 20, 2018, 11:05:58 AM
Something else I just read got me to thinking about this even more.  The point made is a victim can later become a predator.  I once knew a woman, for instance, who got her heart broken here by her boyfriend.  She cut off all ties to everyone, abruptly moved to another state and has been there for years. She started having an affair with a married man, who incidentally was a fairly successful country music songwriter.  The point is here she was the innocent victim.  But in her new location and new role, maybe not so much.  Personally, though, it's hard for me to remember her any other way than naive and innocent.  I'd still want to know all the details if asked to give my opinion on the matter.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on August 20, 2018, 01:10:28 PM
Sorry for misleading everyone with the bigot comment, I meant so say hypocrite. My German roots caught up with me, in German "bigott" translates as "scheinheilig" or "hypocritical" (do as I say, don't do as I do). "Hypocrite" just didn't crop up on my radar when I wrote that post.

Yes, victims can become offenders themselves. Child abuse especially can be a vicious circle. But this is different.

I don't believe that young Jimmy was raped or forced into sex, more likely seduced. Seduction, by definition, is not quite free will, but I would hate to see a world without it. The seduction of a 17-year-old (whether male or female) by an adult (whether male of female) is not abuse in my book.  Hell, my son was 15 when he had his first night with a 40-something who had fallen in love with him. I have yet to see any permanent damage (and he is now, at age 24, not prowling on 12-year-olds either, his girlfriends still tend to be - a little - older than him). And if your kid at 17 doesn't know whether he or she wants to have sex with an adult, then ask yourself what you did wrong as a parent.

Did Ms Argento act saintly when she seduced a 17-year-old? No, she used the tactical advantage of a person experienced with sex and she built on their previous non-sexual relationship. That is perhaps not quite the same as being bullied/coerced (as a 21-year-old) into sex by a Hollywood tycoon in a hotel room (and you date him later for some time because you think it helps your career), but it's close enough for you to perhaps think twice before leading a crusade against the guy in the hotel room.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Pilgrim on August 20, 2018, 02:19:05 PM
Nicely summed up, and agreed.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on August 22, 2018, 03:35:47 PM
I agree with comments made here.  The story is still developing.  It appears public opinion is mostly against Asia Argento.  She is saying it was Anthony Bourdain who got involved in this and wanted to pay off Bennett so he would shut up.  I find this credible.  In addition to all the other problems Bourdain had to face in his troubled life, he also had to deal with this pain-in-the ass Bennett guy.  A guy who, in my opinion, was most likely never raped to begin with.  I believe the sex was consensual. 

TMZ uncovered a text Argento purportedly sent to a friend reading, “I had sex with him it felt weird. I didn’t know he was a minor until the shakedown letter … the horny kid jumped me.”

“It wasn’t raped but I was frozen. He was on top of me. After, he told me I had been his sexual fantasy since [he] was 12,” she wrote.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Pilgrim on August 22, 2018, 09:03:09 PM
If there's any 17-year-old male who wouldn't jump at the opportunity to bed an attractive woman a few years older, I don't think I've ever met him.  That heavily colors my opinion of this situation.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: gearHed289 on August 23, 2018, 06:54:55 AM
I get the impression little Jimmy doesn't want to work for a living.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on August 23, 2018, 08:23:35 AM
 :mrgreen: Good point.

This is one of those (rather common) scenarios where everyone has tarnished himself/herself.

I sometimes wonder whether the big Hollywood Studios would go anywhere near a  script like The Graduate today.

(https://resizing.flixster.com/gg_khEd6Pgg9CORi2LWejxQwYNY=/206x305/v1.bTsxMTYxNDkxMDtqOzE3ODY0OzEyMDA7NzY4OzEwMjQ)

Everything seems to be suffocated under a blanket of new prudery these days while at the same time porn is omnipresent.



Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: TBird1958 on August 23, 2018, 08:31:37 AM


 We had the same thing here...……….. :rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kay_Letourneau
 
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on August 23, 2018, 09:08:24 AM
I heard about that. But if you read what happened, you just wonder if those two were not meant for each other and whether the law should have stayed out of it (otoh I think there was no way around her giving up her teaching position at that school). The vast majority of (or nearly all) 12-year-olds are not ready for a relationship, but that doesn't mean that this particular one might not be a rare exception. Biology doesn't always follow the rules man gives himself. I know that sounds very European laissez-faire, but I can't help it.

"Mary Kay Fualaau (née Schmitz, formerly Mary Kay Letourneau; born January 30, 1962) is an American former schoolteacher who pleaded guilty to two counts of felony second-degree rape of a child, her 12-year-old student, Vili Fualaau. While awaiting sentencing, she gave birth to Fualaau's child. Her plea agreement called for six months in jail, with three months suspended, and no contact with Fualaau for life. The case gained national attention.

Shortly after her three-month stint in jail, Letourneau was caught by police having sex with Fualaau in a car. Judge Linda Lau found that she was in violation of the conditions of the plea agreement, vacated her probation, and re-sentenced her to the maximum of seven years in prison. She soon gave birth to a second daughter, while in prison. She was incarcerated from 1998 to 2004.

When Letourneau was released in 2004, Fualaau, by then over 18 years old, asked the court to dissolve the no-contact order. Judge Lau complied. Letourneau and Fualaau married in May 2005, and she took his last name."

"After Letourneau's release from prison in 2004, Fualaau, then age 21, filed a motion in court, requesting a reversal of the no-contact order against Letourneau.[20] A few days later the request was granted.[32] Letourneau and Fualaau were married on May 20, 2005, in the city of Woodinville, Washington, in a ceremony at the Columbia Winery.[2] Exclusive access to the wedding was given to the television show Entertainment Tonight,[2] and photographs were released through other media outlets. Letourneau said she planned to have another child and return to the teaching profession and indicated that by law she was permitted to teach at private schools and community colleges.[33]

Letourneau and her husband were the DJ and hosts for three "Hot for Teacher Night" promotions at a Seattle night club.[34][35] During an Inside Edition interview, Fualaau said, "I'm not a victim. I'm not ashamed of being a father. I'm not ashamed of being in love with Mary Kay."[36] Attorney Anne Bremner, who met Letourneau in 2002 during Fualaau's civil suit, said that Letourneau considered her affair with Fualaau to be "eternal and endless". According to Bremner, "Nothing could have kept the two of them apart."[20]

On May 9, 2017, after almost 12 years of marriage, Fualaau filed for separation from Letourneau.[37] Fualaau later withdrew the separation filing, and the two are still married.[38]"


No one has yet dared make a film out of it though it is obviously script material. I find that telling. A hot potato then.

The difference between the "Mary met Vili" secenario and the one of "Asia met Jimmy" is that Mary & Vili took on the world for their love and did not budge - that is kind of romantic to me (and, after all, Vili could still be President of France, so there!  :mrgreen: ). Asia & Jimmy otoh both soiled whatever there was between them - she by her pathetic covering-up, he by exploiting the incident years after for filthy lucre.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: TBird1958 on August 23, 2018, 09:15:49 AM

 Were the gender roles reversed how would we all feel about this? 
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: patman on August 23, 2018, 10:13:48 AM
Is an 18 year old age of consent realistic?

Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on August 23, 2018, 11:40:21 AM
Were the gender roles reversed how would we all feel about this?

A legitimate question. In which case a 12-year-old girl would have given birth to a(nother) child. Which does complicate the knee jerk reaction: Why should it be different?

But if you take away the pregnancy aspect and the health/biological aspects it has for a woman that young: No, there should be no difference. Unless you think that women are somehow less capable of taking their own responsible decisions regarding sex and relationships and warrant paternalistic protection.

That was a carefully weighed, lawyerly answer, I know. :-\ I guess you could make the credible argument that the potential pregnancy aspect warrants paternalistic protection of females more.

Return question: When does a female have the right to decide that she wants to become pregnant?

Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on August 23, 2018, 03:33:07 PM
Is an 18 year old age of consent realistic?

Asking the question is answering it. 18 years is probably even more unrealistic today than it ever was since the dawn of civilization. Blame media access and an abundance of protein in our nutrition like we have never had historically before. Actually, by all empirical studies in Western countries, teens don't have sex any much earlier today than they had it, say, 40 years ago, but their bodies mature considerably earlier. So there is a gap between biology and social interaction.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Dave W on August 23, 2018, 10:33:24 PM
Were the gender roles reversed how would we all feel about this?
 

I'd feel exactly the same. The only question would be whether or not there was coercion.

Is an 18 year old age of consent realistic?


Nope!
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: lowend1 on August 30, 2018, 06:37:58 PM
In other news... 8)
https://www.etonline.com/gwyneth-paltrow-proves-she-has-a-sense-of-humor-by-responding-to-a-nsfw-meme-about-her-108807
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Dave W on August 30, 2018, 11:18:36 PM
In other news... 8)
https://www.etonline.com/gwyneth-paltrow-proves-she-has-a-sense-of-humor-by-responding-to-a-nsfw-meme-about-her-108807

Will she remember to remove the jade egg (or whatever) from her vagina first?
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 04, 2018, 10:17:02 PM
Here is a new article explaining that Asia Argento has decided to stop making payments to Bennett.  The last paragraph is the most pertinent, IMO.  In the previous articles, it was my understanding that he was 17 when the so-called incident took place.  He is saying he was underage when the event took place.  That he doesn't think people can understand this "from the eyes of a teenage boy."

My goodness, 17 isn't 12.  When I was 17, quite a few thing were going on.  In many ways, I was like an adult.  My band was doing well.  We even played at the Junior-Senior prom when I was 17.  We weren't babies.  Sex wasn't something scary to us like this guy is acting like it was for him.  I'm sure there are those who can identify with what I'm saying.  As far as I'm concerned, it would be nice if he would just shut up, live life and stop whining.  It seems to me Asia Argento has enough problems in her life, like, for instance, having her boyfriend killing himself.  I'm sure she would have preferred that that hadn't happened, that the public would at least give her the benefit of the doubt, and that the Bennett guy would STFU.  Maybe she really is an awful person.  I don't know.  But I do know that a person who is 17 should be able to handle things a lot better than Bennett did.  He is 22 now.  I wonder if he is going to just keep bitching about supposedly being a victim.  To quote Nietzsche from "Untimely Meditations"----

2. Little Jimmy Bennett: If  nothing worse than being on the receiving end of a blow job will rank among the troubling/crippling issues of your life, then I'm happy for you. Meanwhile, do choke on that money.

https://pagesix.com/2018/09/04/asia-argento-wont-pay-accuser-the-rest-of-380k-hush-money/



Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: lowend1 on September 05, 2018, 08:52:48 AM
Will she remember to remove the jade egg (or whatever) from her vagina first?

News Flash...
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/09/05/gwyneth-paltrows-goop-agrees-to-pay-settlement-over-unscientific-health-claims-about-vaginal-eggs.html
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Dave W on September 05, 2018, 09:36:30 AM
Here is a new article explaining that Asia Argento has decided to stop making payments to Bennett.  The last paragraph is the most pertinent, IMO.  In the previous articles, it was my understanding that he was 17 when the so-called incident took place.  He is saying he was underage when the event took place.  That he doesn't think people can understand this "from the eyes of a teenage boy."

My goodness, 17 isn't 12.  When I was 17, quite a few thing were going on.  In many ways, I was like an adult.  My band was doing well.  We even played at the Junior-Senior prom when I was 17.  We weren't babies.  Sex wasn't something scary to us like this guy is acting like it was for him.  I'm sure there are those who can identify with what I'm saying.  As far as I'm concerned, it would be nice if he would just shut up, live life and stop whining.  It seems to me Asia Argento has enough problems in her life, like, for instance, having her boyfriend killing himself.  I'm sure she would have preferred that that hadn't happened, that the public would at least give her the benefit of the doubt, and that the Bennett guy would STFU.  Maybe she really is an awful person.  I don't know.  But I do know that a person who is 17 should be able to handle things a lot better than Bennett did.  He is 22 now.  I wonder if he is going to just keep bitching about supposedly being a victim.  To quote Nietzsche from "Untimely Meditations"----

2. Little Jimmy Bennett: If  nothing worse than being on the receiving end of a blow job will rank among the troubling/crippling issues of your life, then I'm happy for you. Meanwhile, do choke on that money.

https://pagesix.com/2018/09/04/asia-argento-wont-pay-accuser-the-rest-of-380k-hush-money/

Good.

I haven't forgotten my teenage years, or the joy of going out with girls a few years older.  :)

News Flash...
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2018/09/05/gwyneth-paltrows-goop-agrees-to-pay-settlement-over-unscientific-health-claims-about-vaginal-eggs.html


Now what will we do to make fun of her and the sheep who believe her claims?

Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 05, 2018, 12:22:53 PM
^^^
I can only speak for myself, but I can vividly remember reaching puberty early.  Certainly, I fantasized about my English teacher as a 7th grader.  On top of that, I actually learned quite a lot about the English language from her.   Whether something like that is a good thing or not, I'm not quite sure.  But that's the way things happened.  Anyway, the only things that happened were things that happened in my mind fueled by raging hormones.  To be more specific, I was only imagining what the teacher would look like in sexy outfits. It didn't go beyond that.  But it wasn't wholesome thinking and I'm not saying it was something a person should necessarily be commended for.  She was an outstanding teacher, though.  Later she ended up teaching college.  I'm sure there were some attentive male students when that happened.  (Maybe some female ones, too, for all I know.)

To me one of the overall issues in this case is this appears to be another example of how the American public makes snap judgments on incomplete info.  There may be more to this Asia Argento story than meets the eye.  I don't have all the facts and I doubt if anyone else does, either.  But I try to not be someone who rushes to judgment if at all possible.  There are two sides to every story.  I just happened to run across this new article from USA Today several moments ago. This may be the best article on the subject I've seen so far. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/09/05/asia-argento-payments-jimmy-bennett-sexual-assault-accuser/1200041002/
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Dave W on September 05, 2018, 04:18:44 PM
But if we can't make snap judgments, how will we be able to come up with something new to be outraged about every day? 
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Granny Gremlin on September 05, 2018, 04:37:00 PM
If there's any 17-year-old male who wouldn't jump at the opportunity to bed an attractive woman a few years older, I don't think I've ever met him.  That heavily colors my opinion of this situation.

Sorry bud, but that is the daftest statement I have ever heard.  Also, a large part of the problem of why male survivors have such a hard time coming forward for help nevermind justice. It's a self-fiullfilling prophecy, and Uwe (as a lawyer well versed in the rules of logic/rhetoric), can tell you exactly what logical phallusy [sic] that is. 

Not everyone, for various reasons, is ready for sex at 17, even if they think they want it, it can turn out to be problematic afterwards.

I'm also a bit mistified that Uwe seems to think that if his son did have any issues (not saying he does, mind, just if) that daddy would be the first to know.  I doubt most of us told our dads shit, especially if it made us look less strong or manly to do so.

Were the gender roles reversed how would we all feel about this?

Ding Ding Ding!

I also think a few of us have some very thick rose-colored glasses on when remebering how mature we were at the age of 17.  It is also quite daft to assume everyone's experience is going to be the same as those colored memories.  Great, nothing bad or weird (sexually) happened to  you at that age (or, as an obvious example, even younger, which made you not ready for it just yet at 17, cuz you, being the manly man you were expected to be, didn't tell nobody and so hadn't worked through it yet) so it was all great and you were great, but that doesn't mean it was like that for everyone else, or that you were actually that great at all in the first place actually.

Everything seems to be suffocated under a blanket of new prudery these days while at the same time porn is omnipresent.

It's not prudishness, it's an attempt to develop a more universal baseline level of empathy.  And no, the copious simulated rape/incest/Teen porn catagories that top the most popular lists on your favorite porn aggregator site are not helping.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 05, 2018, 05:10:15 PM
But if we can't make snap judgments, how will we be able to come up with something new to be outraged about every day?

Although I consider the TV series itself somewhat flawed (a comedy/sci-fi show is hard to do,) there is an episode of "The Orville" which kind of deals with this issue.  An entire society which functions based on what essentially consists of snap decisions by the inhabitants. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFP3nlBgSgA
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Dave W on September 05, 2018, 06:26:34 PM
That looks interesting. Missed it completely. Guess I'll tune in for the upcoming season.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 05, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
That looks interesting. Missed it completely. Guess I'll tune in for the upcoming season.

There are people not interested in it because of Seth MacFarlane and maybe that's understandable.  I'm not very familiar with him, but I think he has had some other shows that were lacking.  Also, this can be a difficult show to watch sometimes because it switches so much between the dramatic and comedic.  Overall, it's probably worth watching.  Season 2 should begin soon. 
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Granny Gremlin on September 05, 2018, 07:20:00 PM
There are people not interested in it because of Seth MacFarlane and maybe that's understandable.  I'm not very familiar with him, but I think he has had some other shows that were lacking.   
[/quote

He's made a career of being politically incorrect; trolling.  I'm sure you've heard of Family guy, and the whole We Saw Her Boobs musical number at the last awards show he hosted.

Personally I'm not sure if I am OK with the schtick, but it seems that at least sometimes he was making the right point.  Nobody's perfect.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 05, 2018, 08:15:16 PM
^^^
I like sci-fi enough to probably keep watching "The Orville" regardless of any possible flaws it may have.  Also, I still don't know enough about Seth MacFarlane to even have an opinion about him.  I've heard of the Family Guy a lot, but never watched it.  I don't even know what it's about.  Whatever he may or may not have done in the past, "The Orville" is really not too bad, especially for people who are gung-ho sci-fi fans.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on September 06, 2018, 10:35:22 AM
"I can only speak for myself, but I can vividly remember reaching puberty early."

You mean you have actually grown out of it by now?  :mrgreen: Sure had me fooled. (ducking ...)
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on September 06, 2018, 01:37:45 PM
And now back to serious!

Jake, it is is obvious to me that the subject stirs something up in you, it has in past threads too. I respect that (Edith has different views on some of these subjects too and tells me I lack empathy).

"Sorry bud, but that is the daftest statement I have ever heard.  Also, a large part of the problem of why male survivors have such a hard time coming forward for help nevermind justice. It's a self-fiullfilling prophecy, and Uwe (as a lawyer well versed in the rules of logic/rhetoric), can tell you exactly what logical phallusy [sic] that is."

Oh, the drama! "Survivors"!!! Auschwitz had survivors. Gene Simmons' mom is a survivor. People whose parents starved to death in the Sahel Desert are survivors. A victim of a violent rape is a survivor. A late Senator and fine man was a survivor of an airplane crash and subsequent Hanoi Hilton imprisonment. Having received a blowjob you regret for whatever reason doesn't make you a "survivor". Inflationary use of language, let's not get carried away. The statistics of people dead from received blow jobs are insignificant - and there are likely to be worse deaths while we're at it.

"Not everyone, for various reasons, is ready for sex at 17, even if they think they want it, it can turn out to be problematic afterwards."

Isn't your dad a scientist? We're mammals made to mate and breed. Lots of things people want at any given time can be problematic and regrettable in the aftermath, you wanna forbid them all?

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will


Neil Peart (a Canadian!)

The alleged psychological and sociological side effects of sexual acts have been blown out of all proportion IMHO, it's a primal act. If it goes together with love, so much the better. If it doesn't, people can still enjoy it. It should neither be a life- nor world-changing matter. We've built this huge cultural and moral bogus structure around it - sacrificing all reason and proportionality in the process.

"I'm also a bit mistified that Uwe seems to think that if his son did have any issues (not saying he does, mind, just if) that daddy would be the first to know.  I doubt most of us told our dads shit, especially if it made us look less strong or manly to do so."

My son - like most people - probably has all kinds of issues, some of which I am no doubt to blame for. Sexual experiences with a very much older woman as an adolescent are not among the known sources of any issues I have yet noticed with him. And yes, we have deep conversations about all aspects of life, sex included. Last I heard, we were in the 21st century, not the 19th one and I faintly remember something called the "sexual revolution" in the 60ies (when I was born) - not all of which has yet been the victim of an ideological reactionary roll-back (whether religious, conservative or feminist). So, while I might not be the first to know, I generally take enough of an interest to get to know eventually.
 
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 06, 2018, 02:01:28 PM
"I can only speak for myself, but I can vividly remember reaching puberty early."

You mean you have actually grown out of it by now? Sure had me fooled. (ducking ...)

All joking aside, I'm the INFP personality type.  Probably the worst of all 16 categories if you're interested in blending in with the crowd  Any time the subject of MBTI personality types is brought up, you'll usually have someone say they don't believe in that.  I wish I didn't believe in it, either.  But I do believe in it.  For many reasons, but one is because I think Carl Jung, whose ideas are what MBTI are based on, was a psychological genius  Being an INFP may be helpful if you're going to be a writer, a scientist or even to a more limited extent, a musician.  But in many other cases INFPs are probably going to spend a lot of time being misinterpreted.  On the plus side, INFPs are the personality least likely to commit mass genocide.  Sadly, though, they can also be known as the famous people who commit suicide.  Think Ian Curtis or Kurt Cobain.  Getting more directly to the point, INFPs are often known as the type more likely to connect to childlike idealism. It's something which can be an advantage in youth, but maybe not so much as time passes.  You may have a lot of INFP idealists, but maybe an unfortunate number of older cynics when all is said and done. 

On a personal note, being this way certainly can put a person deeply in touch with the emotion in music.  This may be the most advantageous thing about it.  But if you're wanting to be a "people person" who gets along with most people, just forget it.  That's unlikely to happen.  I didn't find out about MBTI until a few years ago.  But when I did, it kind of stunned me especially when I saw that some of the people I connected with the most--like John Lennon, George Orwell, and Soren Kierkegaard--had all been INFPs.  In general, INFPs often don't care what society thinks about a lot of things, but at the same time usually make an attempt to be polite about it. 

Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on September 06, 2018, 03:10:08 PM
No worries, I like INFPs, doesn't everyone, you're a rare breed!  :mrgreen: I have some of it in me as well. Mass genocide is not really a desirable core capability if I may say so as a German.

I'm also inherently shy - all the jester, irony/sarcasm and low pc taboo-icebreaker is a way to compensate and camouflage that, I realized that early on.

Jung is a bit too esoteric/quasi-religious to me (one of my best buddies is a glowing Jung disciple, it does give me headaches sometimes), I'm more with him here ...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Sigmund_Freud_1926.jpg/170px-Sigmund_Freud_1926.jpg)
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 06, 2018, 03:38:53 PM
No worries, I like INFPs, doesn't everyone, you're a rare breed!  :mrgreen: I have some of it in me as well. Mass genocide is not really a desirable core capability if I may say so as a German.

I'm also inherently shy - all the jester, irony/sarcasm and low pc taboo-icebreaker is a way to compensate and camouflage that, I realized that early on.

Jung is a bit too esoteric/quasi-religious to me (one of my best buddies is a glowing Jung disciple, it does give me headaches sometimes), I'm more with him here ...

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Sigmund_Freud_1926.jpg/170px-Sigmund_Freud_1926.jpg)

It turns out to be a mixed bag of things  Like I was saying, I think where being an INFP works the best is when someone is a writer.  But once someone might venture out in other things, it could get more problematic  What can be odd is that an INFP may actually relate better to someone who is more different than he is.  I know, for example, that sometimes even if an INFP female is very attractive, I may not find her very sexy.  I can think of one You Tube person whose health videos I like a lot.  She is so pretty, but I'm not sure how much I'd want to be around her in real life.  Usually, I'd rather be around someone who is my opposite. 

People can get too caught up in the MBTI thing.  After a while, I stopped bothering keeping up with it at all.  There is something about it which reminds me too much of astrology or something like that I guess.  But it did help me gain some insight into myself, although more often than not I wasn't too impressed or happy about it.  The worst part of all is being continually misunderstood.  Having a best friend for many years who is an ENFJ has been of tremendous help, though.  I had her as a friend years before I even had any idea at all what MBTi was all about. 


“People understand me so poorly that they don't even understand my complaint about them not understanding me.”
---Kierkegaard
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: Granny Gremlin on September 06, 2018, 06:09:19 PM

Oh, the drama! "Survivors"!!! Auschwitz had survivors. Gene Simmons' mom is a survivor. People whose parents starved to death in the Sahel Desert are survivors. A victim of a violent rape is a survivor. A late Senator and fine man was a survivor of an airplane crash and subsequent Hanoi Hilton imprisonment. Having received a blowjob you regret for whatever reason doesn't make you a "survivor". Inflationary use of language, let's not get carried away. The statistics of people dead from received blow jobs are insignificant - and there are likely to be worse deaths while we're at it.

You're going to nitpick a word I used?  I used that to underscore one of the implied reasons (i.e. rape, as you mention, earlier in childhood) for why some people may not be ready or OK with this sort of thing (addressing the quoted post directly re any 17 year old would jump... BTW it is important to understand the distinction between actually being ready to jump at the opportunity and just agreeing with the guys that you would). I was NOT referring to Bennet as a survivor; whether he is or is not I have no bloody idea, in fact you'll notice I stayed the hell away from this thread until the discussion moved past that specific incident (which, I doubt any of us have enough information to pass any sort of public judgemnent on, but I digress).

I use that word to be respectful and because I refuse to use the word 'victim.'  Trust a lawyer to take advantage of a guy's better nature in the cross examination ;P

There are plenty of things worse than being dead, but ignoring that, for someone who accuses another of misplaced hyperbole, you seem to be a rather big fan of it yourself.  Nothing is wrong unless it results in death?  Are you even trying?

Isn't your dad a scientist? We're mammals made to mate and breed. Lots of things people want at any given time can be problematic and regrettable in the aftermath, you wanna forbid them all?

Are you actually falling back on the obsolete (since before your time even) theory that all behaviour, syndromes, anatomy etc can be evolutionarily traced to the survival impetus?  Come on man - next you'll tell me schizophrenics and homosexuals are a fiction as well.  There are plenty of people who exhibit psychologies and general behaviours in direct contradiction with procreation and I don't even have to resort to the easy example I already dropped of the LGBT+ community; recluses, asexuals (and demisexuals - which are the most pertinent to the discussion at hand actually), and we could go on.  Additionally, as a maturing species we have also learned to expand upon (or break through, depending on one's point of view) our programming. 

No I am not suggesting any change or ban on anything.  Again, my only purpose was to address some of the arguments being made because I find them very problematic (and they exist on both the left and the right, if in slightly different forms), and not to discuss the appropriate age of consent.  I agree that you cannot legislate away all risk, and without it, one never develops the proper helmet (to reference the colloquial phrase) to deal with what life will throw at you, much less be in a position to dive into it and seize the day.

The alleged psychological and sociological side effects of sexual acts have been blown out of all proportion IMHO, it's a primal act. If it goes together with love, so much the better. If it doesn't, people can still enjoy it. It should neither be a life- nor world-changing matter. We've built this huge cultural and moral bogus structure around it - sacrificing all reason and proportionality in the process.

You are doing the exact thing I was trying to point out; looking at your (rather charmed, by contrast to the average, you must admit) experience and extrapolating that nobody else's is significantly different.  You're neither a psychologist nor a survivor (or even friendly with survivors who have spoken about it at all to you apparently), so, what are you basing this on exactly?  Yeah, maybe, just maybe, your opinion is not entirely valid here because you have exactly zero data to work from. This is not something you have actually spent considerable time investigating (whether just from your armchair or otherwise); it's off the cuff. I used to think that too, back when I was 17, but I know better now.  These things are insidious and can sometimes not show up for years. We've made so much progress since Freud, As Western44 pointed out re Jung, but even he (Freud) knew this much (no I am not a particular fan nor do I take much of his theories seriously... though they do work well to describe his own behaviours, to bring this around to my point again; you can't base a universal theory on your own experience). Jung would not disagree on this bit either.

My son - like most people - probably has all kinds of issues, some of which I am no doubt to blame for. Sexual experiences with a very much older woman as an adolescent are not among the known sources of any issues I have yet noticed with him. And yes, we have deep conversations about all aspects of life, sex included. Last I heard, we were in the 21st century, not the 19th one and I faintly remember something called the "sexual revolution" in the 60ies (when I was born) - not all of which has yet been the victim of an ideological reactionary roll-back (whether religious, conservative or feminist). So, while I might not be the first to know, I generally take enough of an interest to get to know eventually.

A very loquacious way to seemingly dismiss the point, while actually fully acknowledging it.  You agree that you don't actually know; you just haven't detected it.  I don't doubt he's fine (nothing to detect), and that you have a good relationship; the point is if he wasn't fine about it you wouldn't necessarily be the one to know it (or to be more true to what you actually said and taking my previous paragraph into consideration, not necessarily know it yet).  This goes hand in hand with the other people, some I quoted others not, saying that they've never known this to be an issue - same thing, if it was an issue for someone you knew, their mates would not be the people they'd blab about it to. Also, I hope you realise, the fact that he mentioned that it happened to you does not preclude there being an issue (again I am not saying there is one but trying to explain that drawing conclusions from one's limited experience is usually not going to lead one to the truth, though it certainly works to reinforce the beliefs one already holds).

I get what you mean about modern times, but the opinions and machismo-based dismissals on display in this thread do not support your position.  I have made  a habit of criticising both feminists (liberals/progressives in general) and, I dunno what term to use, conservatives, I guess, as a handy catch-all, for conflating masculinity with machismo.  E.G. Masculinity is not a prison, to riff off that tired slogan (certainly no more than femininity); but machismo certainly is (and on the other hand it doesn't make me less of a man to cry or wear a skirt - if I had the influence I would love to bring back tights n tunics for men; think Luke Skywalker in A New Hope - so comfy).

The (60s) sexual revolution, in some ways, was a crock.  Personally I hardly think the 60s was either the begining or end of it.  Knowledge of the human condition means we must throw away any argument that uses as it's base the supposition that we've figured something out perfectly already (watch the video of Woodstock - there's a lot of sex but not much of it looks too healthy or fullfilling to me).  All it was was a release from, to borrow a term you like, the overwhelming prudishness of the early modern era.  It certainly did very little to address other important issues around the act, such as safety (VD etc).  I'd argue that, except for the vestiges of that prudish moral authority, overall progress has been made since then, but that's a whole other topic.
Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: uwe on September 07, 2018, 10:01:56 AM
Ah, my favorite drummer-turned-bassist-stream-of-consciousness-scattershooting-Pol(c)a(nu)ck, I love that you're on the forum and that you still write like the angry young man you were ten years ago!!!  :-* :-* :-*

You make some valid points. You always do. Just three comments:

- I'm fine with "victim", "survivor" to me is overblown. I'm relieved you don't see Bennett as a survivor or even victim of anything.

- We all have skeletons in our closets. Some people have an unfortunate tendency these days to make huge bones (pun carefully crafted) about theirs so it becomes the all-determinative thing/obsession in their life. I've had people tell me that I very likely must have been sexually molested too as a child (because we all have!), but that I'm just repressing things too well. Bullshit. I have vivid memories of my father beating the crap out of me a couple of times (for no good reason) and if he had molested me sexually I would be writing about it here. I would also not be basing all my - perceived or real - failures in life on it. And the one time a male teacher (not my teacher) tried to get in my pants when I was a youth, I just said no and left (there was no violence involved), not because I find male homosexuality repulsive, but simply because men don't turn me on. (I didn't eat any salads back then either.) I might have decided differently had he been a woman, tough luck. The experience has not made me believe that homosexuals are more prone to molestation than heterosexuals are nor do I remember it as this huge threatening scenario in my life - the guy was more the desperate lonesome type and a bit tragic. Nor am I today uncomfortable in the presence of teachers :mrgreen: or gays.

- You're damn right that I am a dyed-in-wool-fur-feathers-scales-and-what-have-you biologist/evolutionist!!! We're animals, full stop. It doesn't mean that we always have to act like them (in animal kingdom, our brain sure is one-of-a-kind), but it is at our core and explains a lot of things. Even racism is biologically driven (which doesn't make it right, much less sensible or smart). Homosexuality and transgenderism? Follow from nature for me - homosexuality is prevalent among animals and since we are all at least half-women anyway it is sometimes just a matter of chance on which side the coin drops or whether it gets stuck in the middle. If a London zoo female monitor lizard that never saw another monitor in its whole captive existence (and was born in captivity) can lay two fertile eggs that spawn two healthy monitors (that are able to reproduce), then perhaps nature isn't so black and white about gender determination after all. In fact I find the view that homosexuality and transgenderism might be based on anything else but biological disposition far-fetched to laughable. My biologism/evolutionism is of Stalinesque proportions and unshakeable. :mrgreen:

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/stalin-statue-10907998.jpg)

- I had to look up "loquacious" - danke, a new word!  :)

Title: Re: The mind boggles ...
Post by: westen44 on September 07, 2018, 10:57:11 AM
I suppose more often than not loquaciousness might be looked at in a slightly negative way.  However, I doubt if it would bother me much if someone accused me of that fault.  One thing is they would probably be right.  But a lot of people are loquacious.  William Faulkner was loquacious but still managed to win the Nobel Prize in Literature.