The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: Basvarken on January 12, 2008, 04:36:15 PM
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Some of you may remember the modification I did to the Epiphone Jack Casady Signature of mine.
Those who don't: I replaced the Elektar pickup with a Gibson Lo-Z pickup from a Les Paul Bass/Triumph.
Recently we (Superfloor) finished our new album. And there's one tune that features the JCS.
I used the middle setting of the tone selector. The treble rolled of just a bit.
Plus I used my Ampeg V4B (1972 I think) and an Eden XLT210D cab.
Three signals went into the soundboard:
- a DI signal (Avalon U5)
- a microphone signal (can't remember type nor brand)
- the external amp out on the back of the amp. Which is officially meant for a slave amp. But it sounded surprisingly good.
Our good friend Rob Lamothe joined in on the second part of the song. I always think Floor and Rob is a very special combination.
Hope you dig it :)
Miss You - Superfloor (http://www.superfloor.net/MissYou.mp3)
(We hope to release the album this month)
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I dig it. :) Both the bass and the song itself.
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I really like it. I like the song and I think the bass stands out nicely in front of the mix, where God intended it to be ;D, my compliments.
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Very cool. ;D Bass sounds niiiice.
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Dig it.......................... alot ! Nice 70's soul feel. The bass sounds great ! You have some nice riffs in there. Very cool stuff.
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Nice! Great sound, Robbie!
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That's great Rob. Not just the bass but everything sounds great. Did you use a passive DI box for the slave output Rob? I'm curious of using it on my Orange.
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Thank you guys. :)
Did you use a passive DI box for the slave output Rob? I'm curious of using it on my Orange.
No, just a balanced stereo jack plug into the amp and on the other end an XLR straight into the desk.
The result was so good I immediately made a balanced Jack plug for myself to use live on stage.
I remember telling Chris P Dekker this last summer. Because he too needed a pre-amp out for gigs. He doubted if that would work on the Orange AD200B Mk3 he has.
Maybe Chris can chime in and tell us if it worked? Chris, are you there?
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Interesting Rob. I had an email conversation with an audio electronics guy about using the slave output. He recommended using a passive DI box with a durable transformer and/or pad. The reason was the slave output can put out a higher voltage than regular signals but of course this depends on which volume you set on the amp. I guess it is no risk going directly to the mixing desk while using moderate volumes or keeping a good eye on the gain and using the pad if available on the desk.
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I had the volume of the Ampeg V4B a little over 3. Which is fairly loud. Beyond that point you only get more and more drive.
But of course it is only a 100 watt amp.
The Orange AD200 is a whole lot louder.
I haven't tried the slave output of my AD200 as a DI yet.
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I like how the bass sits in the mix
Robert
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Finally got a chance to listen to it-
Love the Stevie Ray sound guitar. Great singing, as usual.
Nice bass playing.
I look forward to the CD. Let us know when it comes out.
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I was blown away! Nice sound from your bass and I loved the singing too. Let us know when it's ready!
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Can't listen to anyhing here - darn!
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Here I am!
I asked a lot of questions about the slave on forums. At the Pit, two Orange forums, some amp boards... and all kinds of answers, from no problem to don't do it.
As a last resort I mailed Orange and I got a mail back from amp-designer Adrian himself. here's my conversation:
Read from bottom up.
"Adrian Emsley"
The slave socket is padded down from the output stage so you get something similar to the way the amp actually sounds.
>> -----Original Message-----> From: "Chris P"
adrian emsley
RE: technical question
Dear Adrian,
Thanks for this quick answer! I'll try out option 3.
I hope I can bother you again with a question.
The question: Can you tell me more about the Slave Out. There isn't a technical manual ('Comming Soon' with two 'm's the site says.). Is it post preamp tubes? Which controls affect this signal? You wrote: "...so you still have bass in the PA if the amp fails."> You designed it; of course it won't fail!:) Thanks again for this great> amp!:)
Chris Dekker
From: Adrian Emsley
Sent: 12 June 2007 13:21
Subject: RE: Technical question.
Your prefered option (3) will work fine and sound great!The only reason for using a DI box in front of the amp is so you still have bass in the PA if the amp fails
Chris wrote:
My preferrable option: 3) Bass --> Amp --> cabinet> Slave Out ---> DI ---> Soundboard.
Can I use the Slave Out for a DI? No problems for valves and impedance? Should I use the cabinet simulator or not? I hope you guys can help me out!
(Chris: My two other options were deleted by Adrian, to point this one out)
I saw the Dutch band Moke again this weekend. They use a double Orange bakcline nowadays. The bass player had two complete rigs with head, 115 and 410:)
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Thanx Chris,
but we still don't know if you can use it without a DI...
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Wow, Rob - man that is a beautiful, powerful, and dynamic song! Great production, and vocals too!
I was curious what is you guitarist playing? Great tone. I was also curious what is providing that rotary/phaser effect at ~4:00.
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I was curious what is you guitarist playing?
My guess is a Strat?
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I was curious what is you guitarist playing? Great tone.
No, it.s not a Strat. It's a handbuilt Aspe. Aspe (http://www.aspeguitars.com) is a Dutch luthier who until recently had his shop in Arnhem where we live.
The Aspe Superfrankrocker is a strange hybrid mixture between a Strat (pickup configuration), A Les Paul (scale length and bridge/tailstop) and a Gretsch (large and extra thick body).
Frank experimented with a few different kinds of pickups, but he now uses Kinman pickups. The bridge pickup is a minihumbucker.
He use a special gauge 013 strings to get that fat SRV tone.
His amp is a Marshall Super Tremelo (basicly a super lead with a tremelo unit). He bought it from Brian "Robbo" Robertson a few years ago.
(http://www.superfloor.net/images/guitarfrank.jpg)
(http://www.superfloor.net/Frankbigrivers.jpg)
I was also curious what is providing that rotary/phaser effect at ~4:00.
I'm not sure what Frank used on this song exactly. I think it's a combination of a Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face with a Fender Vibratone. Or maybe a Univibe.
I'll ask our producer. I'm sure he remembers, since it was his idea ;)
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Almost nailed it:
The effect is a Precision Electronics Vibe Unit plus Fender Vibratone Leslie in the slow mode. Plus a Menatone Red Snapper as a distortion.
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Could've made a new topic.
But since there's already an older topic about my Modified JCS I figured it is suitable here.
I've been playing the Gibsonized JCS for several years now. And it gets quite a lot of playing time.
But somehow it never got caught on any video.
But now there's some footage. Here's a few videos from the gig we did last sunday.
When I heard the vids, it struck me it is even closer related to a Fender P bass than I already knew.
I know it was Les Paul's goal to develop a bass that would emulate the P-bass sound (among others) when he developed the Lo-Z pickups for the Les Paul Bass. But the transplantation into the long scale JCS brings it closer than I had ever noticed before. I needed the video to realise this.
It is a little more low mids focussed than a split P but it certainly has that open and woody character.
Two guys in the audience filmed almost every song we did.
Here's two songs that emphasize the point discussed above:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7tBch9eLwc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loAtQVDtZ70
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I was blown away! Nice sound from your bass and I loved the singing too. Let us know when it's ready!
:mrgreen:
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Finally someone agrees!!! It's what I have been preaching for years: The Les Paul Sig sounds like a very good Fender P and is intended to sound like it (the Epi JC in its original shape and form not so much as the pups sound more Gibsonish). When Burkhard, my Fender collecting partner at the lawfirm, played mine for the first time his comment was "now that finally sounds like a good Fender and not like your others".
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Great videos, love the songs and that bass sound is incredible.
Just to be controversial, I don't think my unmodified JCS was a million miles from that on Friday night, not as wide a gap as "Fenderish" and "Gibsonish" would imply. But I don't have a recording to check back on, just my impression. Maybe the disabled tone pot helps.
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Basvarken - you mentioned somewhere that you might put in one more triumph pickup in the neck position of your modified JC bass. Did you ever get around to do that? I am thinking of doing that myself - either putting in two Triumph pickups or putting in one more JC pickup at the neck.
Also, I suppose you use the stock transformer 3-way switch with the Triumph. Seeing as that transformer goes goes all the way to 500 ohm while the transformer in I guess is on 300 ohm, how does your bass sound with the switch on 50, 250 and 500 ohm respectively? Does it get too weak on 50 ohm, and is it too much with 500 ohm?
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No I decided to keep it the way it is. Just one pickup.
I don't use a transformer in this bass.
The rotary switch does exactly the same as the three way switch on a Triumph.
I use the three way rotary switch to choose coiltaps (the different leads coming out of the pickup)
The signal that comes out of the bass is a lo-z signal.
I use a Shure A95U impedance transformer on the end of my cable.
A while ago I bought a complete set of guitar pickups plus wiring and controls coming from a Les Paul Professional guitar. I did think about it to put them in another JCS (that I have yet to buy).
But I might go build me another short scale Les Paul Bass to put them in. Still undecided... :-\
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No I decided to keep it the way it is. Just one pickup.
I don't use a transformer in this bass.
The rotary switch does exactly the same as the three way switch on a Triumph.
I use the three way rotary switch to choose coiltaps (the different leads coming out of the pickup)
The signal that comes out of the bass is a lo-z signal.
I use a Shure A95U impedance transformer on the end of my cable.
Aha, I thought you kept the transformer from the JC bass. It does work. I have one spare JC pickup with transformer and one Triumph pickup without transformer. I connected the Triumph pickup to the JC 3-way transformer with crocodile clips and just held it over the strings on one of my basses. Obviously I couldn't play, but I could hear that it worked and that it would potentially make a very versatile bass. I am interested in doing that on a future project. You would have the choice between three different positions on the transformer in combination with the 3-way tone/coil tap selector of the Triumph pickup.
The next step would be to have two 3-way tone selectors, one for each pickup. That would make for so many choices I can't even count them. Maybe that's even going a bit too far. But I do think it would be interesting to hear how the Triumph pickup would sound with, for instance, the transformer set at 500 ohm and the tone selector at 1 or 2. Or the transformer set at 50 ohm and the tone selector at 3. And how would the transformer set at 500 ohm and the tone selector at 3 sound like? Perhaps something like a EB-3/EB-2 with a Dimarzio Model One. I don't know but I would sure like to find out.
On my Triumph bass I never use the tone selector at the first position. And on my JC bass I never use the transformer at 50 ohm. Like you, I am still undecided (and I am waiting for a second Triumph pup from David :) )
A while ago I bought a complete set of guitar pickups plus wiring and controls coming from a Les Paul Professional guitar. I did think about it to put them in another JCS (that I have yet to buy).
But I might go build me another short scale Les Paul Bass to put them in. Still undecided... :-\
Do keep posting your thoughts on this. I have similar decisions to make. I might buy me another JC bass to use with my Triumph pickups. And then maybe use the spare JC pickups in a short scale LP or EB-3 bass. Secondhand JC basses are really cheap nowadays. You can get one with hardcase for around 350 euro.
I know you are not fond of the JC pickup. So if by any chance your projects leaves you with a spare one (with or without transformer but preferably with) I could perhaps relieve you of it. :)
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The next step would be to have two 3-way tone selectors, one for each pickup. That would make for so many choices I can't even count them. Maybe that's even going a bit too far. But I do think it would be interesting to hear how the Triumph pickup would sound with, for instance, the transformer set at 500 ohm and the tone selector at 1 or 2. Or the transformer set at 50 ohm and the tone selector at 3. And how would the transformer set at 500 ohm and the tone selector at 3 sound like? Perhaps something like a EB-3/EB-2 with a Dimarzio Model One. I don't know but I would sure like to find out.
Chances are they might work against each other.
For example if you use an lo > hi impedance transformer on a hi-z pickup you get less output.
I can imagine if you use the transformer from the JCS on a Triumph pickup it'll do the same if the impedance from the Triumph pickup is higher than the value chosen on the transformer.
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Chances are they might work against each other.
For example if you use an lo > hi impedance transformer on a hi-z pickup you get less output.
I can imagine if you use the transformer from the JCS on a Triumph pickup it'll do the same if the impedance from the Triumph pickup is higher than the value chosen on the transformer.
Maybe with the transformer on 50 ohm, but hardly if it is on 250 ohm and certainly not if it is on 500 ohm. But when I tested it, it seemed to work fine on 50 ohm as well.
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Basvarken - have you ever made an A/B comparison between your modified JC bass and LP Signature? If so, how did they compare?
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Yes, years ago I had a meeting with Chris P and Bart. We brought all our bass guitars and made a lot of noise during a saturday afternoon.
Chris happened to have an Epi JCS. And Bart had his Gibson LP Signature with him.
I brought my Modified JCS. And we compared them of course.
I remember that the sound of my Modified JCS was pretty close to the LP sig. And the three of us agreed it was an improvement to the original Electar equipped JCS.
The slight difference in sound could very well be written down to the different wood of the back of the basses. The LP Sig has the beautiful walnut, where the JCS has an indescript maple?
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/BartWitte/LpsigJCsigJCmoddedsig.jpg)
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Wish I had been there! Very interesting. I have been trying to get the specs for the LP Sig pickup with not luck. But it seems very likely that it is very close to the Triumph pickup. And choice of wood really do matter a lot for the sound. I think the sound of the LP Triumph bass is colored a great deal from the heavy mahogny body. Playing it unplugged you can really hear that.
Btw, that must be one of the most inspiring family pics ever!
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The LP Sig is stained walnut. The ply is maple
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I have been trying to get the specs for the LP Sig pickup with not luck. But it seems very likely that it is very close to the Triumph pickup.
A while ago someone of this awesome forum told me the pickup on the LP Signature is actually closer to the lo-z guitar pickups from that era.
It does make sense, as the guitar pickups are smaller and don't have the eight leads coming out the backside.
The impedance choice is made with the transformer rather than directly from the coiltaps. Just like the LP Sig and JCS.
This picture of an early LP Sig shows a smaller guitar sized pickup which is clearly a lot smaller than the Triumph pickup that I have on my JCS.
(http://www.flyguitars.com/graphics/LPsigbass73.jpg)
But when I saw this picture it was the direct inspiration to get rid of the Electar and install the Triumph pickup.
(I didn't know it should have maybe been a guitar pickup) And I haven't regretted it one single second.
(http://gallery.me.com/vdbroekrob/100423/Modified-20JCS-20small/web.jpg?ver=13152102880001)
The only thing that I still need to do is mount lightweight Gotoh Res-O-Lites to cure the neck dive.
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dang that is sweet Rob! i was thinking the drums need to mellow just a bit to match the bass but it is absolutely great as is. Floor is just getting so incredibile.
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thanx man! :toast:
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after repairing my puter (that has better speakers) forget the remark about the drums.
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Fantastic sound on your bass in those videos, especially the second one where one can hear the bass better. I would write this "It is a little more low mids focussed than a split P but it certainly has that open and woody character" to describe it, if you didn't already write precisely that. ;D
Great bass, for a great band!
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Thanx man! :toast: