Downplaying the 1960s British Invasion

[westen44]

westen44. responding to something you posted in a less than shiny, happy way is not putting my nose in your business. one you post something in a public forum its out there for the world to respond to. i don't think you would lasted very long at the old dude pit.

Your post to me on that thread was totally uncalled for.  I don't even think you understood the point I was making. 

It's obvious that you and I have totally different personalities which are going to endlessly clash.  I see no reason in continuing what will inevitably be fruitless discussions.    My purpose on the LBO is to follow what people say about music and basses, not to get into one argument after another with you.  I am not interested, okay?  As for the dude pit, I don't care what happened there and how long I might have lasted there is irrelevant to me. 

As for public forums, I'm sure our views on those differ, too.  Whatever your views are on them, I really don't care.  Seriously, maybe you just aren't used to being around people as apathetic and jaded as I am.  And I'm not saying that that's a positive thing about myself, but it's the way things are with me.  If I come across as abrasive to anyone, it isn't intentional at all.  Also, I do have an introverted eccentric personality which sometimes people misinterpret.  I attempt to be articulate, but I'm sure I'm not always successful at it. 

[uwe]

Sigh, Nofi, now what happened while I let you out of my eyes for a few seconds?

[slinkp]

I have to put in a giant disclaimer that I have read the article but not the study it links to - BUT - I'm immediately suspicious that they talk about hip-hop's "entry into the US charts in 1991." That's either a giant typo in the article, or the study authors are on some other planet where they have radically different understandings of what's meant by "hip-hop", "charts", or "1991".  There were certainly giant rap hits well before 1991. 

I just checked. "Rapper's Delight" cracked the US top 40 in 1980, for chrissakes.  That's the mainstream Billboard top 40, not one of the more specialized charts.

So, this seems like pure gobbledygook to me.

Also it sounds like the kind of thing where you can define musical characteristics however you want to get the results you want. You could likely easily re-do the study to prove the opposite.

Going even further, without having actually read the study, we should be skeptical that the article actually presents its conclusions correctly.  Reporters do not exactly have a good track record in that regard with scientific reporting.

Scientists: Preliminary laboratory results suggest an association between large amounts of chemical compound X and cancer in laboratory rats. X is found in trace amounts in many fruits.
Reporters: Hey everybody! Scientists have proven strawberries give you cancer!
Scientists: No we didn't.
Reporters:  Look! A train on fire!

[uwe]

"I just checked. "Rapper's Delight" cracked the US top 40 in 1980, for chrissakes.  That's the mainstream Billboard top 40, not one of the more specialized charts."

I was gonna say - and Queen's Annother One Bites the Dust (initially a non-single picked up by black radio stations) followed not too much later bringing rap or hip-hop into rock (though Aerosmith had been there earlier with their original Walk this Way from Toys in the Attic in 1975). Rhythmic music with rhythmic, but largely spoken lyrics has been with us now for more than 35 years at least, of course it has rubbed off on a lot of other styles.

And the rhythm guitar from Eminem's 8 Mile could pass as a backing track for a myriad dark and doomy heavy metal songs. I can just envisage Rob Halford, Geoff Tate, Ronnie Dio or Bruce Dickinson hollering over it.



All kinds of influences merge and that is generally a good thing.



As Herr Osterberg has already observed:



I just learned that Iggy is a leftie and can't tune a guitar. But I'm proud of myself: It's already May 8 here in Germany and I have inadvertently posted a clip that contains "it's what Hitler didn't like". What a way to celebrate!!! 

[Pilgrim]

Lord Buckley was rapping in the 50's.  His cut "The Nazz" is a real classic.  And he was whiter than Wonder Bread, and in his 40's when he came to public notice.

[Dave W]

There have always been talking records. What Lord Buckley and other talkers did was not hip-hop.

[drbassman]

I love all of this microscopic analysis.  I feel like I'm at work!  There are links between just about every genre if you look for them.  No artist has ever evolved in a vacuum devoid of preceding music to build on.  The real issue for me is musicality.  I just don't find rap or hip-hop musical.  Does is add something positive or timeless to our culture?  Everyone can judge that for themselves.

[uwe]

Music is more than melody or harmony. It's also rhythm. Are tribal drums not music?  Under harmony standards, most Blues is totally limited, three chords I-IV-V or less, but does that make Blues unmusical?

Aerosmith's Walk this Way was in my book already pretty darn close to rap, both as regards urban lyrical content (they sure weren't singing about demons and wizards), rhythmic structure of the backing music and the way Tyler emphasized/placed the lyrics. Had the Luftschmitze been from a black neighborhood in Boston (Blacksmith?  ), I'm sure they would today be credited as cracking the charts in 1975 with the first rap song ever.



Unfortunately and ironically, US Radio continues to remain a pinnacle of segregation - of all places!

[Granny Gremlin]

There have always been talking records. What Lord Buckley and other talkers did was not hip-hop.

No, but it (beat poetry generally) was a seminal precursor; I mean, the man is talking some jive there. 

[Pilgrim]

No, but it (beat poetry generally) was a seminal precursor; I mean, the man is talking some jive there.

Agreed with both Dave and Granny.  Buckley was certainly there first, and he was pretty well known in some circles.  It wasn't hip-hop, but add the beat and you're pretty well there. I'd sure like to know if any of today's hip-hop types or rappers know who he was.

As Bill points out, this stuff doesn't evolve in a vacuum.  There are always ties in numerous directions.

[Granny Gremlin]

Today's MCs, maybe not - I'd say 50/50 chance depending on who.

[Dave W]

Lord Buckley on You Bet Your Life rapping Shakespeare

https://youtu.be/CNhstToY9kk?t=2m

[Pilgrim]

I like that cut!

[drbassman]

Music is more than melody or harmony. It's also rhythm. Are tribal drums not music?  Under harmony standards, most Blues is totally limited, three chords I-IV-V or less, but does that make Blues unmusical?

Aerosmith's Walk this Way was in my book already pretty darn close to rap, both as regards urban lyrical content (they sure weren't singing about demons and wizards), rhythmic structure of the backing music and the way Tyler emphasized/placed the lyrics. Had the Luftschmitze been from a black neighborhood in Boston (Blacksmith?  ), I'm sure they would today be credited as cracking the charts in 1975 with the first rap song ever.



Unfortunately and ironically, US Radio continues to remain a pinnacle of segregation - of all places!

Bovine scatology Uwe.  I don't know what US radio stations you are listening to, but you can find any form of music you want in every little town in the US.  Segregation, really?  The only segregation I see is stations specialize in a particular genre to appeal to a defined audience segment.  It this it's called targeted marketing, or something like that.  We have every form of music imaginable on our local stations here in little ole Rochester. If you want rap or hip-hop or want to sing along and slap your bitch or pop a cap in someone's head, it's right here on the airwaves.  No censorship here.

I never said musicality didn't include rhythm, beats, drums and all sorts of other instruments that don't carry a tune or harmony.  I just wasn't very clear.  I was trying to say that I believe every artist is influenced, positively or even negatively, by preceding music of all genres they are exposed to growing up.  The links from one genre to another are pretty clear as you folks have noted in numerous posts.

We just disagree on what's art and what enhances a culture.  And we all know, we'll all never agree here on what is art and what isn't!

[westen44]

Agreed with both Dave and Granny.  Buckley was certainly there first, and he was pretty well known in some circles.  It wasn't hip-hop, but add the beat and you're pretty well there. I'd sure like to know if any of today's hip-hop types or rappers know who he was.

As Bill points out, this stuff doesn't evolve in a vacuum.  There are always ties in numerous directions.

George Harrison knew who he was.  In fact, GH's song "Crackerbox Palace" is about Lord Buckley's house in Los Angeles.  Actually, the song is about more than that, but it all goes back to a chance meeting GH had in 1975 at a music festival in France.  He met someone called George Greif and remarked to him that he reminded him of Lord Buckley.  Harrison refers to Buckley (and the song) in his autobiography.  He says Buckley was a hip comedian who was very important to him in the 60s. 

Greif told George that he had been Buckley's manager for 18 years or so, something which is noted in the autobiography as being an incredible coincidence.  When George got home, he wrote "Crackerbox Palace."  There is a reference in the song to Greif and also one to Buckley in the song.  The line "know that the Lord is well and inside of you" isn't talking about the Lord God (as some may assume,) but about Buckley.  There is a footnote in the autobiography about that. 

I think the song has been misinterpreted a lot and there are things about it I'm not quite sure of myself.  But it's literally impossible for the song to make sense without knowing about Buckley.  In all honesty, it has never been one of my favorite GH songs but some people seem to really like it.  I do like the lyrics, though.  "Crackerbox Palace" seems to be referring to Buckley's house, maybe even Harrison's house, too, (where the video was filmed,) but most of all to the world itself--as noted in the autobiography.