The Last Bass Outpost

Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: Dave W on January 09, 2023, 11:17:57 PM

Title: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Dave W on January 09, 2023, 11:17:57 PM
This was posted to Gibson's YT channel 9 months ago. I don't recall seeing it posted here. No basses, except in a band playing briefly toward the end. Enjoyable anyway.

https://youtu.be/3-zOaOYB120

Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 10, 2023, 12:22:02 AM
Do we need to worry about you now Dave?

https://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=12070.0
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 10, 2023, 05:38:54 AM
(I would have never made him aware of it, Rob, that Dutch bluntness of yours at work once again, tsk, tsk, tsk ...)

That was a very nice and instructive vid you've just posted here for the very first time, Dave, thank you!

(https://www.ritiriwaz.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/International-Senior-Citizen%E2%80%99s-Day.jpg)
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 10, 2023, 06:37:39 AM
that Dutch bluntness

I admit that it's a talent not everybody is gifted with.  :rimshot:
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 10, 2023, 07:36:14 AM
(https://media.tenor.com/im3Lw-Hgg6QAAAAC/mark-rutte.gif)
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Dave W on January 10, 2023, 09:00:25 AM
In my defense, the latest Gwyneth news at the time probably had me in such a daze that I forgot.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 10, 2023, 09:04:35 AM
 :rimshot: :toast:
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 10, 2023, 09:16:13 AM
She now has new neighbors in Motecito, Dave, have you heard?

(https://www.sheknows.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/royal-move-prince-harry-meghan-markle-gif.gif?w=480)

A youngish retiree couple, people say. Victims of vile persecution.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 10, 2023, 09:26:24 AM
Related: (rather anxiously) Now, you weren't one of those, uhum, "randos", were you, Dave?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11617427/Gwyneth-Paltrow-jokes-doing-cocaine-not-getting-caught-stumbling-home-randos.html
 
STOP PRESS !!!    STOP PRESS !!!    STOP PRESS !!!    STOP PRESS !!!   STOP PRESS !!!


While we're at it, she needs a place to stay for the night too - because of the heavy rain, flooding and mudslides and all:

"About 130 miles (209 kilometers) to the south, the entire community of Montecito and surrounding canyons scarred by recent wildfires were under an evacuation order that came on the fifth anniversary of a mudslide that killed 23 people and destroyed more than 100 homes in the coastal enclave."

https://apnews.com/article/california-flooding-Montecito-evacuation-order-7c151eeaf3f567a125d74245173327f1


More Gwyneth + Friends news as we get it!
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Dave W on January 10, 2023, 11:03:38 PM
She now has new neighbors in Motecito, Dave, have you heard?

(https://www.sheknows.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/royal-move-prince-harry-meghan-markle-gif.gif?w=480)

A youngish retiree couple, people say. Victims of vile persecution.

I'm so sick of hearing about them.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: ilan on January 11, 2023, 02:56:06 AM
14:36 is the worst bass tone I have ever heard - and I've owned an EB2.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 11, 2023, 04:23:31 AM
I thought the worst bass tone was Bob Daisley’s tone on Blizzard Of Ozz.  :mrgreen:

https://youtu.be/FlHoKOazyVU?t=613
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: morrow on January 11, 2023, 05:56:21 AM
14:36 is the worst bass tone I have ever heard - and I've owned an EB2.

ok , that had me spitting coffee … and I only had a reissue Rivoli
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 11, 2023, 06:44:27 AM
14:36 is the worst bass tone I have ever heard - and I've owned an EB2.

 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Ilan, there we have it, you're really nailing yet another deity to the cross here - AGAIN!!!  :-* :-* :-*

Glory to the Holy, Eternal & Immaculate Müdbücker !!!
There is neither speech nor language, yet his voice is heard felt
among them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJIjklgQsmo

Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 11, 2023, 07:00:50 AM
I thought the worst bass tone was Bob Daisley’s tone on Blizzard Of Ozz.  :mrgreen:

I actually really liked that tone (not knowing how it emanated from a short scale mudbucker bass at the time) - it was unusual and original, even brave for an early 80ies recording in all its glorious non-hifi sonic imperfection. And it actually cut through quite well. I believe Bob Daisley, generally a Fender P player, was channeling his inner Andy Fraser with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ZeQIqZB58

Daisley has awesome pick control, those 16th notes commencing at 02:45 ...
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Grog on January 11, 2023, 07:52:20 AM
14:36 is the worst bass tone I have ever heard - and I've owned an EB2.

The amp that they used to test the EB-2 was a GA-5 Skylark. The cheapest amp in their 1967 lineup & probably the least suitable to amplify an EB-2. My EB-2 smoked much better speakers than the 10” that came with that amp.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 11, 2023, 08:36:10 AM
It sounded nothing like Andy Fraser's tone though.
All I hear is plop plop plop ploppedi plop.

Goodbye To Romance really me made crack up everytime I heard it.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: ilan on January 13, 2023, 04:32:26 AM
The amp that they used to test the EB-2 was a GA-5 Skylark. The cheapest amp in their 1967 lineup & probably the least suitable to amplify an EB-2. My EB-2 smoked much better speakers than the 10” that came with that amp.

It's a very nice guitar amp.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Alanko on January 13, 2023, 07:47:45 AM
Like the previous factory film, this one is a love letter to the previous decade. Gibson guitars are for white dudes in suits who play Chet Atkins licks while sitting down. Zero recognition of a decade of blues players (of all hues) who put their instruments on the electric map. The contrived beat group at the end  a pale pastiche of everything from 1961 onwards. The guitars for ordinary folk mantra over a montage of big shiny motorcars and towering buildings. Very square, unhip, straight-laced. Nobody permitted to bend strings on the company dime.

Again the video perpetuates the notion that the Gibson factory was kept in darkness except for some glaring spotlights set at angles that ensured machine operators had to fumble around in the darkness of their own shadows.

The guy sanding frets on the EB-2 then studying the resulting dull farts is sort of unintentionally brilliant.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: ilan on January 14, 2023, 10:24:31 AM
The guy sanding frets on the EB-2 then studying the resulting dull farts is sort of unintentionally brilliant.

Lock this topic, I think we have a winner.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: slinkp on January 16, 2023, 08:42:38 PM
That bass tone test was hilarious.

If we're going to go off on a "worst bass tone ever" tangent, I nominate this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtqdOBdax6k
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 16, 2023, 09:07:40 PM
Purdy.

But shouldn't it be Reign in Blood? Is that American spelling again?  :-X
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: gearHed289 on January 18, 2023, 10:41:48 AM
Song title is Raining Blood, from the album Reign in Blood.  :vader:

Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 19, 2023, 08:57:53 AM
How tricky!

To my defense, I've never owned nor heard the album in full. With Metallica already too fast for me, Slayer didn't even really register - my ears aren't quick enough to catch that type of music. I never got into Venom either for the same reason.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Psycho Bass Guy on January 20, 2023, 01:38:41 PM
With early Slayer, which Raining Blood is, the bass is just an afterthought, a hint of an atonal clank hiding underneath Kerry King's massive guitar tone giving Tom Araya something to do besides scream and headbang. As they got older, the production DID get better, and to their credit, they never tempered their attitude and even had some sonic experiments (within the "broad" spectrum of punk to thrash) but this is where they pretty much ended up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wRH9esYgnk
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: gearHed289 on January 21, 2023, 10:44:20 AM
To my defense, I've never owned nor heard the album in full.

I was never a big fan, but a lot of my friends were metal heads in the 80s. I was mostly the new wave weirdo amongst them, but I did dig early Metallica, Anthrax, King Diamond, and Queensryche.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 21, 2023, 01:55:20 PM
The first three I didn't really regard as having singers, just people shouting or squealing (the Dane), besides that much of their music was just too fast for me, I can't find a beat with that ultra-speedy stuff which would become a determining factor of much of Heavy Metal from the 80ies onwards.

Queensryche I liked, it was very artful and tidy. Empire was brilliant, very refined songwriting, I prefer(red) it to Operation Mindcrime.

Back then and today, when faced with the choice between speed, thrash and death metal and quirky to pop'ish New Wave, I always go for the latter.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 22, 2023, 02:43:14 AM
Anthrax had a great singer.
And they didn’t make just all fast songs.
This one must be suitable for your slow ears:

https://youtu.be/uGHsxMqpL0c
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 22, 2023, 07:57:58 PM
Yeah, Joey Belladonna wasn't a grunter to give credit where credit is due. I remember that song, it was as commercially accessible as they got  :mrgreen:, but still too thrashy-punkish for me. Back then you couldn't get away from Anthrax, all the metal magazines were hanging on Scott Ian's lips. He's a nice enough guy though. Didn't he marry Meatloaf's daughter Pearl?

I like my punk to be poppy and majorish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_mHFfOMWE&list=RD6q_mHFfOMWE&start_radio=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez4yjw5Y94s&list=RD6q_mHFfOMWE&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCW7Aw8ugOI&list=RD6q_mHFfOMWE&index=3

But maybe the bruddahs weren't really Punk at all and that is why I lik'em?
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: doombass on January 23, 2023, 12:47:10 AM
Yeah, Joey Belladonna wasn't a grunter to give credit where credit is due. I remember that song, it was as commercially accessible as they got  :mrgreen:, but still too thrashy-punkish for me. Back then you couldn't get away from Anthrax, all the metal magazines were hanging on Scott Ian's lips. He's a nice enough guy though. Didn't he marry Meatloaf's daughter Pearl?

I like my punk to be poppy and majorish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_mHFfOMWE&list=RD6q_mHFfOMWE&start_radio=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez4yjw5Y94s&list=RD6q_mHFfOMWE&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCW7Aw8ugOI&list=RD6q_mHFfOMWE&index=3

But maybe the bruddahs weren't really Punk at all and that is why I lik'em?

Even if the examples you present are the more poppier songs, The Ramones are of course still more punk than Anthrax and Slayer. The latter bands have punk elements in the attitude of the music sure, but original punk was never about being that technical. Charlie Benante and Dave Lombardo would not really fit in as typical punk drummers right even if they of course could as well play punk in a punk band if they toned down their technical skills? That said without considering all later sub genres of punk.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 23, 2023, 06:22:48 AM
I wasn't trying to insinuate that the then new 80ies American metal bands were more Punk than the Ramones, but they were of course influenced by Punk energy and attitude, nothing wrong with that. Even early Iron Maiden had tapped on Punk energy and Paul Di'Anno wouldn't have been out of place with, say, the UK Subs.

But thinking about it, one of the differentiating aspects between Heavy Metal and most Punk is that Punk tends to be majorish and Heavy Metal minorish. Social revolutions are in major, dystopian Heavy Metal doom is in minor. Heavy Metal fans don't rebel like Punks, they escape reality and routine and their favorite music reflects that.

And Nirvana didn't even know what the hell they were doing either way, manor- or mijorish.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 23, 2023, 12:24:52 PM
You seem to be obsessed with this minor/major schism?
I’ve noticed you mention it more often lately.
Most (rock, pop, metal, etc) music uses both dear Uwe.
It’s weird to assign either to a genre.
The use of minor and major within one song is very common too. Guess that drives you crazy? ???
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: doombass on January 23, 2023, 03:06:37 PM
The use of minor and major within one song is very common too. Guess that drives you crazy? ???

I guess even better, a bassplayer playing minor over a major chord?  :P
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: slinkp on January 23, 2023, 03:40:36 PM
Anthrax have, to my ears, got better at meshing their riffs with Joey Belladonna's voice. I really enjoyed their work on "For All Kings". The chorus of this one is downright hooky.  Uwe still might not like it because it uses both major and minor :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKh2Hb7mcU0

Quote
And Nirvana didn't even know what the hell they were doing either way, manor- or mijorish.

That's just trolling Uwe - but I am going to fall for it :D
Nirvana were perfectly aware of the difference between major and minor. "Wrong" notes are a prominent part of the aesthetic. You just don't like it :D.  And that's fine.  But to claim it was accidental ignorance is false.

Getting away from those two tangents and back to my original tangent that still has little to do with Gibson factory tours ....
while I can enjoy Raining Blood (with the bass properly submerged in the mix), I think some of you may join me in enjoying this version better... I'm sure I've posted it before ... the bridge is a thing of genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnrfqPoX4WU
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 23, 2023, 04:07:38 PM
You seem to be obsessed with this minor/major schism?
I’ve noticed you mention it more often lately.
Most (rock, pop, metal, etc) music uses both dear Uwe.
It’s weird to assign either to a genre.
The use of minor and major within one song is very common too. Guess that drives you crazy? ???

Of course a song in a major key can use minor chords and vice versa, no issue with that at all. Every major key has a relative minor one and vice versa. That is just circle of fifths basics.

I'm even ok with breaking the rules if it is skillfully done., i.e. putting a major chord where a minor should go according to conventional harmony as Albert Hammond did in The Air That I Breathe with the second chord - that breaks the rules, but sounded fresh. Or the key change in Every Breath You Take when Sting goes into the middle eight Since you've gone, I've been lost without a trace ....

But some of the wanton harmony and key changes that Nirvana and Soundgarden did were (and continue to be) painful for me. It sounds to me like someone doesn't know what he is doing. Some Nirvana songs don't even have a definitive key they're in.

And I'm also not a great fan of playing minor blues scales (rather than major ones) over major key harmonies, it's lazy thing to do, Oasis did that a lot, Angus Young does it too, probably because both don't want to sound like Southern Rock where people tend to play the proper (major) scales over major harmonies. You never heard Molly Hatchet or Lynyrd Skynyrd play minorish over a majorish chord progression.

Of course there are bands and music styles that favor one thing over another! Almost all Reggae and C&W music is in major keys (folk music generally tends to be, whether in Germany or Hawaii), which doesn't mean that they do not play minor chords within those scales because they belong there under the rules of harmony.

All classic Deep Purple hits are in minor keys, the one exception from the Mk II, III and IV line-ups is Woman From Tokyo which also contains a nifty key change to the verse (G major) from the riff (E major), a rare thing with Purple.

And nearly all Status Quo hits are in major keys whereby it is noteworthy that Francis Rossi is as a lead guitarist a rare breed as he almost always solos in major scales even when the song is in a minor key (most guitarists do it the other way around, see Oasis or Angus Young). A case in point: Don't Think It Matters is a song in D minor with classic D minor pentatonic riffs. Come the solo, nearly all rock guitarists (Blackmore, Iommi, Angus Young, Gilmour, Trower, Alvin Lee etc) would play a minor scale solo, but what does Francis Rossi do? He plays a solo in D major with aplomb at 02:05:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWedyugALz4&list=RDcWedyugALz4&start_radio=1

That is why the solo part sounds all of the sudden so jubilant and radically changes the mood of what is essentially a dark song. Strictly speaking that is a key change from D minor to D major - it has nothing to do with a relative major key to D minor, that would have been F major, but Quo don't go there, they stick to the D and Rossi changes it from minor to major via the choice of his (D major key) notes. It's a Status Quo trademark by the way and explains why Francis Rossi solos so often sound "happy". Alan Lancaster, the bassist, once said: "I believe initially Francis didn't know what he was doing, he simply couldn't solo in anything but major scales. And over time it became our trademark and made our music more relatable because he was essentially playing folk melodies over a hard rock rhythm."

By the way, my dislike of Led Zep also has to do with the fact that Jimmy Page had a habit of mixing up major and minor keys and scales in his songwriting. I often find that grating as well, key changes should be used sparingly and best by people who know what they are doing. Albert Hammond did.

Your Thin Lizzy guys wrote a lot in major keys too, The Boys Are Back In Town (a song with an unusual chord progression for a hard rock number) among them. Phil Lynott would however only rarely break with traditional harmony rules. And they told Scott Gorham what to play because by his own admission he wasn't too sure about the difference either and hence learned his solos note for note, almost never changing them. Have you bought the new boxed set with all the source gigs for Live & Dangerous yet? I have!

Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 23, 2023, 04:17:31 PM

That's just trolling Uwe - but I am going to fall for it :D
Nirvana were perfectly aware of the difference between major and minor. "Wrong" notes are a prominent part of the aesthetic. You just don't like it :D.  And that's fine.  But to claim it was accidental ignorance is false.


I disagree. I believe that if you had asked Kurt Cobain if he knew what the relative major key to an A minor chord progression was (it's C major), he would have just stared at you blankly. And even more blankly if you had asked him whether the solo in DP's Highway Star and the guitar melody in the Allman Brothers' Jessica were major or minor (the former is minor, the latter major). I'm not even knocking him for that, that was not the way he went about writing music. But the results he achieved often sounded grating to me.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: morrow on January 23, 2023, 04:29:19 PM
We’ve been working on some Mexican themed instrumental music , and sometimes I come across a major triad being played over a minor chord.

Sometimes it isn’t easy learning to play the wrong notes.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 23, 2023, 04:47:57 PM
Yes, and sometimes that can even sound interesting or spice things up! I'm not a purist, but Grunge brought me to my limits fast. And initially I didn't even realize what it was that rubbed me the wrong way. I remember listening to Nirvana's  Nevermind in the car of our then guitarist, he was over the moon with it and I just found it excruciatingly horrible, WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS MUSIC?!!!  :mrgreen: And when I heard Soundgarden's Black Hole Sun in a live version I was aghast, because I really thought they played - repeatedly - the "wrong" chords by accident!  ;D

And yet: The traditional Greensleeves melody contains (in most versions) three different types of minor: natural, harmonic and melodic minor. It works and is a lovely tune.

"Sometimes I come across a major triad being played over a minor chord ..."

So does Marc Bolan in Get it On (Bang a Gong) in the chorus - it sounds great and very T. Rex'y.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: Basvarken on January 24, 2023, 02:50:12 AM

Your Thin Lizzy guys wrote a lot in major keys too, The Boys Are Back In Town (a song with an unusual chord progression for a hard rock number) among them. Phil Lynott would however only rarely break with traditional harmony rules. And they told Scott Gorham what to play because by his own admission he wasn't too sure about the difference either and hence learned his solos note for note, almost never changing them. Have you bought the new boxed set with all the source gigs for Live & Dangerous yet? I have!

Yeah it arrived yesterday. I love it. The 7 concert registrations are awesome. The band was firing on all cylinders!
And proof that Visconti exaggerated a lot when he claimed 70% was overdubbed on the official album.
I had some of the shows as a bootleg. But to hear them properly mixed and cleaned up is a joy to listen to.

I don't understand why they didn't include It's Only Money on the initial release too. One of my favorite Thin Lizzy tunes.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: slinkp on January 24, 2023, 11:43:33 PM
I disagree. I believe that if you had asked Kurt Cobain if he knew what the relative major key to an A minor chord progression was (it's C major), he would have just stared at you blankly.

That's beside my point. I believe there are many, many musicians who have a good working understanding of keys and harmony regardless of whether they have learned the terminology.

Black Hole Sun is supposed to be disturbing. I don't know what live version you heard, but nothing in the studio version is an accident.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: westen44 on January 25, 2023, 03:40:47 AM
I never knew what Black Hole Sun was supposed to be about.  I've listened to it several times, but never liked it from the first.  On the other hand, I liked the way Chris Cornell sounded with Audioslave. 
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: morrow on January 25, 2023, 06:00:58 AM
With some blues they like a flat 7 over a major chord.
Dominant .
That’s been known to tip up many well schooled players.
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: uwe on January 25, 2023, 06:03:37 AM
That's beside my point. I believe there are many, many musicians who have a good working understanding of keys and harmony regardless of whether they have learned the terminology.

Black Hole Sun is supposed to be disturbing. I don't know what live version you heard, but nothing in the studio version is an accident.

I didn't say that Kurt didn't hear the difference between an A minor and an A major chord, he wasn't tone deaf. But claiming that a profound harmonic understanding went into his compositions is overstating things - I think he just played by ear and liked (or didn't mind) chord changes that grated a little.

Re Black Hole Sun, of course that live version wasn't misplayed, it was just like the studio version, that's actually the point, but the angular chord changes gobsmacked me and I tried to make sense of them.

But there are exceptions to every rule, after all the "Hendrix Chord"/7#9 chord is an intentional clash of major and minor too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm13XE7x1Ho
Title: Re: Gibson factory tour 1967
Post by: slinkp on January 25, 2023, 03:27:32 PM
I didn't say that Kurt didn't hear the difference between an A minor and an A major chord, he wasn't tone deaf. But claiming that a profound harmonic understanding went into his compositions is overstating things - I think he just played by ear and liked (or didn't mind) chord changes that grated a little.

Finally something we agree on: I think he played (mostly or entirely) by ear and definitely liked grating chord changes.

I did not say anything about "profound harmonic understanding". I said "good working understanding of keys and harmony regardless of whether they have learned the terminology."

It's entirely possible, as an artist, to know what you're doing without being able to put it into words.