The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: Highlander on December 05, 2009, 02:29:18 PM
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Right Gentlemen... I need some advice...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Front%20Page/20090307002.jpg)
I have just about got clearance to blow £200 of my bonus on a new set of speakers for my 1970 beaten-to-death Marshall slope...
Presently loaded with 3 30w Celstions that are still functional but I would like a new set of something in there before looking for a regular gig in the new-year...
The amp is a 100w DR103"S" so it is switchable between 50w and 100w...
I know Scott has advised Eminence speakers (what type, Scott) and having heard the sound he gets, along with a similar vintage Hiwatt...
Any thoughts...?
Can the cab handle a 200w speaker load...?
I also like the sound that Mark and Rob get but their setup (8x10) is significantly different...
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Are we talking 12s or 15s ? I am using these in my Marshal 2x15 300w each 16 ohm. http://www.eminence-speaker.com/bassguitar_speaker_detail.asp?model=legendca154&speaker_size=15&SUB_CAT_ID=5 I like them for the price. Hope that helps, I have celestions in my 4x12 and don't really care for them, when I have the dough I'll put Eminence 12s in there to.
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EVM12L's are probably the best sounding speakers you could put in there, but they're pretty expensive, almost twice your budget. If you want the same sound on the cheap, look for a first generation Line 6 4x12 guitar cab and rob it. The speakers they used were Eminence-made clones of the EVM12L.
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Bang for the buck Eminence is really tough to beat. I've become a big fan of their stuff over the years .
Like I mentioned before, you can probably sell your Celestions on ebay to a vintage freak (blown or good) and get enough to buy whatever you want and have some left over.
Rick
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I've had that in mind since you mentioned that, Rick...
Line 6 now on my search list... thanks PBG...
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EVM12L's are probably the best sounding speakers you could put in there, but they're pretty expensive, almost twice your budget. If you want the same sound on the cheap, look for a first generation Line 6 4x12 guitar cab and rob it. The speakers they used were Eminence-made clones of the EVM12L.
Hope they don't weigh as much as EVM12Ls ;D
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EVM-12L Classic:
• 200W Power handling
• Frequency response: 80Hz – 7kHz (at -10 dB down)
• Large 16lbs (7.3kg) magnet allows for higher efficiency,
better cooling and maximum output
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That low end rolloff is high on paper, however, since you're loading it in a sealed cab, you can boost the low end without the fear of overshoot or speaker crease that you get with ported bass cabs. that's how Bag End subs work. Besides, that cab isn't going to have any real output below 60Hz or so anyway with ANY speaker. I don't think those specs are for the actual old EVM12L anyway, but the new "reissue" model targeted towards guitar players. The original was for PA use.
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OUCH...!
Can-not find a single EVM speaker sub £100 in the UK...!
How good/bad are Celsetion G12 412 AVT 50w...? watching a set of 4 sitting at £40 (approx $65) (one of those "virtually unused" type of sales where they upgraded to copies of my present speakers, which I only have 3 of...)
There are a couple of 10 year old BNIB G12H 30w for just short of £80 (approx $237) each, too, which are similar to mine - 2+2 with a spare, keeping my "vintage" speakers...?
another idea - 2 G12K 100's similar in price to the above - split and seal the cab to house the 2 differing speakers... run 2 of the existing 30w speakers with the Marshall 50w "smallbox" and the 2x100w from the Hiwatt...?
still searching for ideas...
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Fane Sovereign FA1031 or FA1051 125 or 300w respectively... same idea, or am I losing the plot here...?
Still researching...
nearly forgot... there are a pair of Fender/Eminence from a Fender Twin approx 5 years old "unused" - looks like a good price... "split" cab idea again...
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Maybe try Carvin PA Speakers?
I use their 15 inch woofer--it's a Celestion, and sounds o-k--nothing to write home about. Was reasonably priced @ (I think) $69 when I bought it--they go "on sale" a couple of times a year.
It will take everything a Combo 300 will give it, at least until the speaker protection kicks in...I just watch the light on the amp, and if it starts to get absolutely pegged, I back off the volume a little. I could probably kill it with the amp if I did something stupid, but as long as I play sensibly, it does fine, no distortion. Not a particularly "tight" sound either, but it works for me.
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I would still take a look at Eminence and see what they have in a similar power rating. You could go with a slightly higher power rated speaker because Hiwatt watts are bigger than other watts ;) , and Eminence speakers seem to respond pretty well even if you're a little under amped.
I've got an older Eminence 15" cab and a newer Eminence 2 12" neo cab. I love them both and the neos a nice and lightweight too. I play with a lot of bottom and they really deliver. They have a nice tone for bass like the old CTS stuff only they are capable handling a whole lot more power /volume/ bottom.
It's largely a matter of taste, but the newer Celestions just don't get me all that excited and they're not cheap either.
Rick
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How good/bad are Celsetion G12 412 AVT 50w...?
...all but useless. Celestion made good bass speakers for Trace Elliot, but other than those, you don't want one for bass.
another idea - 2 G12K 100's similar in price to the above - split and seal the cab to house the 2 differing speakers... run 2 of the existing 30w speakers with the Marshall 50w "smallbox" and the 2x100w from the Hiwatt...?
If you can keep track of it, that's fine, but two different amps into one cab is a recipe for disaster if you're not around to hook them up or if someone screws with your cab onstage.
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Ken, I would peruse this site - it's a wealth of info, even if they're out of your locale. They're very helpful, and might be willing to answer a few hypothetical questions for you. They can use their software to come up with the proper speaker for your box. Who knows, maybe shipping would be semi-affordable.
http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm
There's also Weber, but the same problem exists with the logistics...
http://www.webervst.com/
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Got that info, PBG... Those "budget" replacements are off the list, thanks... Unlikely that I'll be working in much more than self-roadieing in the near future, anyway, so advice re "split" noted and aware... thanks again...
Researching that link thanks, Billy...
Re Eminence, Rick... sent a question to the guy selling the Fender Eminence "spares" about what wattage they are and awaiting answers... still a possible for my "split" idea...
I just love a tight budget... :sad:
Last night of nights and off tomorrow - gotta get those cameras up tonight or it will mean another night, which will NOT please the boss... :o
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for that money i am sure you could buy a good used cab (not a marshall) with the speaker configuration of your choice.
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I'm keeping that in mind too, Nofi...
I'm not sure I'd like a present range Marshall, anyway, but then again, never played through one...
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Hi
Why dont you ask emminence?
Send them the cab dimensions and they will give you suggestions. I did that when i was looking for a replacement speaker for one of my acoustic cabs
You can get emminence from Blue Aran in Southampton
You could also pose the question to lean business who are ex celestion people and who do deals if you but 4 speakers
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Yo could consider the some (Eminence) marshall VBC speakers, they are 100w each and sells, new, for 60€ + vat.
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If I was in a tight budget situation, I'd probably use Eminence PA speakers, they are tough guys and cheap.
Those "little" bastards are in your budget:
http://www.thomann.de/gr/eminence_beta12.htm
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Thanks for those tips, Gents... they are within my budget...
This may seem like a dumb question, but is their an "equation" for speaker wattage...? I am going from "power equations" from my electrical days and watts = power, so a 100w amp needs to be reasonably matched to a set of speakers, or am I missing something here...? As I said, may be a dumb question, but...
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For a 100w amp, I would get at least 200w for the speakers. There is not an equation, but your speaker wattage must be higher than your amps, so they could survive the power! :P
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For a 100w amp, I would get at least 200w for the speakers. There is not an equation, but your speaker wattage must be higher than your amps, so they could survive the power! :P
While I agree with you there is another school of thought that says speaker damage is caused by amplifier clipping and you should use a more powerfull amplifier to give a clean signal.
Im not a techie just what I have read
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While I agree with you there is another school of thought that says speaker damage is caused by amplifier clipping and you should use a more powerfull amplifier to give a clean signal.
Im not a techie just what I have read
I've read that too. It makes some sense to me, although I'm no techie either. Still, clean signal or not, every speaker has physical limitations, how much heat its voice coil can take, how much excursion its structure can take.
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"clean signal" LOL
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"clean signal" LOL
I guess you like it dirty, eh? :D
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I always shoot for about a 20 - 25% higher power rating on the speakers than what the amp delivers. Yes it is true that if you have a seriously underpowered amp you can screw up the signal coming from the amp and blow a speaker. I have never blown anything up like this, but it can happen . In the old days this was something that never happened..... it was always too much power that got got ya :o
I'd like to hear Psycho Bass Guys take on this....he actually knows what he's talking about whereas I'm just a guy who learned a bit by blowing a lot of stuff up .
Rick
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Again advice received and understood, Gents...
Now into the new year so will get on with the research - hopefully get something in the next couple of weeks...
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I always shoot for about a 20 - 25% higher power rating on the speakers than what the amp delivers. Yes it is true that if you have a seriously underpowered amp you can screw up the signal coming from the amp and blow a speaker. I have never blown anything up like this, but it can happen . In the old days this was something that never happened..... it was always too much power that got got ya :o
I'd like to hear Psycho Bass Guys take on this....he actually knows what he's talking about whereas I'm just a guy who learned a bit by blowing a lot of stuff up .
Rick
Don't feel too bad. I've smoked two sets of drivers in my life; the most recent was a pair of horns in some EV SX300's that had already taken a bad hit from lightning so anything would have killed them, but I spectacularly destroyed a pair of Cerwin Vega SL36 subs when an EQ feeding their power amp had a subsonic oscillation in its output and I had a real power amp pushing them, a bridged Crown MA3600. They got so hot, the magnets turned bright blue permanently and the voice coils had vaporized; not burned, not charred, vaporized.
For most instrument amps, ratings of thermal max power are pretty trustworthy, however, since we play bass which is:
a. hard to hear relative to most other instruments and
b.hard for speakers to reproduce relative to most instruments
... we get to deal with mechanical limitations of drivers as well as thermal. With porting, it is quite possible to destroy a 1000 watt rated speaker with less than 200 clean watts below its tuning frequency, which is why it's important to pay attention to the repsonse curves of a subwoofer and not try to get 30 Hz out of a speaker cabinet than has a 10 dB downpoint at 50.
Now that I've added that little wrinkle, I've got some good news for the OP; your cab is sealed. That means that any added lows below its resonant frequency will simply result in less volume below that point, and unless you exceed the speaker's thermal limit (the wattage rating) with continuous power, you need not fear hurting the speakers. As far as the old saw of "underpowering," it was only true in the first decade or so of solid state power when poorly regulated amps would often dump all kinds of nasty stuff into their audio output when overdriven and many a speaker got toasted by having an amp with too little power ( and unrealistic expectations of volume).
As far as my personal philosophy on PA and "clean" ss bass rigs, I like to have a large margin of power in excess of the speaker's thermal rating so that I can attenuate on the front end of the amp. There are large transient signals that almost always exceed an amp's maximum input voltage, even if it's only for a few milliseconds, and if you can turn down the amp's input and prevent that, your overall sound will be better and punchier and your amps will last longer.
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Excellent... time to do some spending...
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I've gone down the 2 speaker route; I may go to a 2nd pair at a later point - so I ordered 2 Eminence 75watt 8 ohm Governor's from Thoman (in Uwe-land) - I found reference (more than one) during my research to mixing Wizard or Governors with old "greenback" Celestions - obviously, my Marshall is a "guitar" cab, and these are "guitar" speakers, but for the sound I've predominantly been happy with, going for it...
Soon as arrived I'll post on the repairs - going to strip the speaker mounts and probably fit some kind of mesh grill in place of the "basket-weave", sprayed black, of course - not going for the purist route and stripping back to re-cover...
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Speakers are in - work to do...
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Can't wait to see/hear the results !
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Interesting choice using guitar speakers. I've never used Eminence guitar speakers for bass, but in general, I've never had any luck using a guitar speaker for bass . I've tried it a few times and have successfully shreaded Altec, JBL, Jensen cheapos, and personal best record of blowing a Celestion in one note/one second :o.
I don't mean to frighten you with this becsause I know a lot of people who have had good luck running guitar speakers. I am not one of them :sad:
Rick
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my sound city head and cabs were for guitar and i never had a problem. the bass i had at the time was a 68 tele so not the hottest pickup around. that may be why they worked so well.
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All the guitar speakers that I blew were of older design and very responsive free moving types . I know that was a major reason for my tale of woe ;D
What did you have in that Sound City?
Rick
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to be honest back in those days i didn't care as long as it worked. :sad:
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iirc Sound City speakers were Celestion - I did have an old pair of "upright" styled cabs with the open slot down the back - got them when I bought a PA cheap and used the head as my bass amp for a while until I blew a transformer - then got the Hiwatt and used them with that until they died, also used a WEM 215 with the Marshall...
I've predominately used guitar speakers, the Celestions that are in the cab are guitar speakers, afaik, but when I strip the cab down I'll post a pic or two, I guess...
Dave (Mr Hiwatt - RIP) Reeves used to be employed by Sound City, which is why there is a similarity in design between them and the Hiwatts...
Just as a point re the instrument and pups, I used to be running the Thunderbird with a Peter Cook Custom pup and a DM MB1, and a pre-amp I built myself from some old plans, so it did "bark" quite a bit, and the RDA with all the bells and whistles until they burnt-up on re-entry, so I did push them...
I will eventually post some stuff - there are some studio recordings (4) I made with the Peter Cook in '88 that were recorded DI which will give a reasonable impression of her sound, plus some (dodgy) video I got from this year to give some before/after comparrison - something I'll do in my "spare-time..." ;D I'll also post the fretless RD for a sound image, too...
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Changed my mind... just ordered some "salt-and-pepper" for the front...
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Changed my mind... just ordered some "salt-and-pepper" for the front...
I think they'll look better that way. I wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise, but I think (hope?) you'll like the grill cloth better as well.
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That's what was on her originally... just rotted in the "old" shed... (hangs head in shame...)
Not going to recover the cab - just spray black (again)
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The salt & pepper's in so I hope to start stripping the cab soon... just found out I've got no staples... for that matter, I'm not sure where the staple gun is, post the shed rebuild... typical me...
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I usually find out I'm missing something only after I need it and spend a fruitless half hour looking for it. :)
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Part one of three...
Got a chance on a very wet evening to start stripping the old beastie down - posting this in stages - she's presently a pile of parts...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab1.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab2.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab3.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab4.jpg)
The preview to the STRIP... yep... she's a bit of a wreck, but she's been in the family since the late 70's... the only significant bit of tolex left is (nope, woz, now...) the last pic...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab5.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab6.jpg)
Insides... I had to do a quick fix when I got her back operational - one of the speakers (lower left) was a bit scratchy at first - so I did a temp mod - all the old red/black wiring was junked and I connected everything via a "choccyblock" to enable a "quick repair" (read discon) - works fine...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab8.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab10.jpg)
next out were the big ol' metal handles...they should clean up quite well as the "handles" are bollted each side...
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Part two of three...
Some pics are slightly out of sync (not bothering with Photoshop, George... ;)) but it gives a better narrative...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab7.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab13.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab9.jpg)
The wheels were fitted shortly after I got her, with types commonly used on commercial catering racks - lose the surround and the "locking peg" becomes a "nut"... the holes were drilled out and some of the original "shaft remains in place... the wheels had to come off as they protrude throgh the front - I used a 11/4" inch hole cutter to allow for the "nut" - these will be blanked at the back during the rebuild... The loose strip of wood in 1st pic secures the base of the front in place... - the rather "scraped" condition of the base is evident in the 3rd picture...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab11.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab12.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100216cab14.jpg)
Removing the front is not an easy task - this is a friction fit - you can see the remains on the original "salt and pepper" cloth on the edges - not sure if I'll replace the white trim, or re-use the original - I elected to strip the remaing tolex - no point in being sentimental... ;)
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Part three of three...
Hmm... the original speakers... 30 watt 12 ohm original greenback Celestion's, date and coded identically as 1969... the Marshall serial number indcates 1970...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100217speakers1.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100217speakers2.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100217speakers3.jpg)
The odd rust mark on two of the speakers was something I talked about nearly a year back - Marshall's are "water-tight" - the water that had leaked through the old shed roof and rotted the original front cloth (but, miraculously, didn't destroy the speakers) was level with the edge of the speakers when I opend the cab up, after I heard a "slosh"... :o
DON'T DO THIS AT HOME KIDDIES...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Hohner%20Jack/20091018.jpg)
The "dark" colour you can see in the base of the cab (Jan 2009) is the water I had yet to tip out - the Hiwatt IS on and the Hohner WAS connected and IN TUNE after 10 years in the case... ;D
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Those have whizzer cones! You have PA speakers.
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Please explain further, oh Lord of the Amplifier... this cab had four of them when I got her together with my SG Special, and my Hiwatt...
These have been good to me...
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Please explain further, oh Lord of the Amplifier...
Don't start talking to me like I'm Willie Whitaker, aka "Lord Valve." My ego doesn't need the help.
Whizzer cones are separate drivers wired in parallel internally to the voice coil mounted on the same magnet structure and woofer cone; that's why your speakers are 12 and not 8 or 16 ohms. Their primary use is in PA since the smaller driver reproduces upper mids and highs while the "main" driver acts as a pseudo-subwoofer. Finding them in a "guitar" cabinet is extremely rare, and undoubtedly why yours sounds so good for bass. Marshall did lots of oddball stuff like that. It would be well worth it to get them reconed.
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Your wish is my command, oh Lo... :o
Sorry PBG... all in the best possible taste...
The fourth speaker was junked over 20 years back... oh well...
Not a perfect scenario, but I'm planning to put two back in, with the Eminence's, but wiring up so I can run one pair, or the other, or both together... this could be an interesting mix...
Are these Celestions worth searching for... do they generally make good "bass" speakers...?
Forgot to add at the end of the pics... "Now comes the hard work..."
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Are these Celestions worth searching for... do they generally make good "bass" speakers...?
...typical Celestions: no. They're usually terrible for bass (a big reason the 8x12 bass cab Jim Marshall made in the 60's never took off with bass players,) but I suspect the whizzers gave the drivers just enough additional power-handling and fidelity to make them a good bass cab. It's ironic; the drivers meant to add highs for PA work actually gave it a better bottom, too.
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Well, I'm intending to post some stuff (probably you-tube) when I get the Cookie back together, so you (et al) can get a better idea of the sound I got with the three of them... the cab, the Hiwatt, and the PC 'Bird... and post rebuild...
I'll post more when I start the clean-up... another thing I forgot to add (although probably obvious), most of the fixings will require to be replaced, too...
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One of two...
Bought some spray paint on Friday (rustoleum) and had one of my moments... when presented with a selection of colours and styles... err... bought some "black granite" - looks like a speckled finish... (stop laughing... please...?)
Anyway, put on a first coat and waited for it to dry for a second coat, and it didn't, so I waited overnight, and it was still wet... turned out to be a bad batch... (that'll teach me) some of it dried, some didn't - so cleaned it off, went to get some replacement paint (satin black) and off I went...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100220cab.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221cab1.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221cab2.jpg)
the cabinet in its stripped state... the sprayed base really shows how badly worn it got without the wheels (before I got it)... and the first full coat presently drying off in the shed...
I'll fit the wheels when I've put a 2nd coat on the base prior to finishing off the rest - the base is too badly worn to worry about any finesse...
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TECHNICAL INTERLUDE...
Buzz mentioned an interest in planes, and I said I'd post my 2 oldies when I dug them out, so...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/20100221plane3.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/20100221plane2.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/20100221plane1.jpg)
Don't honestly know how old they are, but the base of the 412 gives an idea of scale - the blade and wedge is missing from the smaller one, which also has a split to the lhs of the blade-slot - Reputedly belonged to my maternal grandfather who was a master-carpenter and shipwright - born 1879 and died 1963 - the name on the blade is the only ID which is "Alexander Mathieson and Sons" with a star and crescent moon logo
They could both do with a serious clean and oil...
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Two of two...
So, as part of my fun and games today, and as I'd managed to find my staple-gun, and bought some staples, got on with the front...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP1.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP2.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP3.jpg)
I started at the top and went overkill on the staples - I marked up the edge (lower rh corner) but every time I tried to get it in line (on the side) it would "bulge" - don't know why, so just got on with it... pulled the cloth tight and stapled at the other end, then started the sides...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP6.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP10.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP12.jpg)
Jackie took some pics of me "hard at work" and her "art-shot" in the middle (as she called it ;D)... I used a pin hammer to ensure all the staples were properly bedded in...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP13.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP15.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP14.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100221SP16.jpg)
the finished article prior to cutting away the excess... and the last three as ready for refitting once the painting is complete and dried out...
It was a pig to remove from the cab, so as this is new and crisp it will be an utter and totally uncompromising pig to get back in... ;)
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TECHNICAL INTERLUDE...
Buzz mentioned an interest in planes, and I said I'd post my 2 oldies when I dug the out, so...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/20100221plane3.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/20100221plane2.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/random%20stuff/20100221plane1.jpg)
Don't honestly know how old they are, but the base of the 412 gives an idea of scale - the blade and wedge is missing from the smaller one, which also has a split to the lhs of the blade-slot - Reputedly belonged to my maternal grandfather who was a master-carpenter and shipwright - born 1879 and died 1963 - the name on the blade is the only ID which is "Alexander Mathieson and Sons" with a star and crescent moon logo
They could both do with a serious clean and oil...
Nice Kenny! Those look to be of all wood construction - my guess would be beech or maple. The larger looks to be a jack plane or jointer and the smaller looks to be a smoother. The complete plane can most likely be returned to life the smaller probably not.
I would be tempted to carefully clean them up with some "white spirits" and 0000 steel wool. Once cleaned I would flood them with linseed oil and display them. My grandfather was a cabinet maker and nothing of his survived - I would really like to have something of his :sad:
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Cheers for the info, Buzz... I agree re the smaller one and I certainly will look after them...
There was some furniture of his up on the Island but it was dispersed around the family after his death, his wife's, and his wife's twin... I distinctly remember a big glass display case, with doors at the front... I only have a box he made with heart marquetry... not perfect, but kept safely - no room to display at present... I keep a few of his tools wrapped up and oiled - quite a selection of augor bits are my faves, plus some odd things I have never quite worked out what they are for - they could do with a refurb...
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Looking Good Kenny ! Bummer about the bad batch of paint what a pain that must have been, I like the black better anyhow. It is going to look nice with that grill !
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It made a nice undercoat, sort of... ;)
Forgot to mention... there is a slight runout on the pattern (to the left) on the lower pair... sort of mentioned above... I can live with it... another coat will be going on on Sunday...
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Fixings came in today...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100316speakersin1.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100316speakersin2.jpg)
... I was quite surprised how easily the front went in... the bigger-than-average wheels were next...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100316speakersin3.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100316speakersin5.jpg)
... the Celestion's and the Eminence's went in and I tested the circuitry...
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100316speakersin4.jpg)
... and with the Celestions in parallel and the Eminences in series, I ended up with quite a nice value... ;D
(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100316speakersin6.jpg) (http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100316speakersin7.jpg)
I decided not to fit the white beading... blacker, that way... I've still got to fit the handles back in (presently hanging from the shed roof after a second coat of black) and now it's time to decide how I'm wiring the beastie...
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Looks good Kenny, We'll want a gig report on that one !
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Presently (not) looking and between gigs... the outfit I giged with last year was a temp re-union...
Not presently looking as I want all the gear in working order, with some back-up...
I'm (road to Hell) intending to post some stuff with the Hiwatt, the cab, and the T'bird, once I get them operational...
I did audition for a covers band a few weeks back but it turned out they tend to rehearse only on Mondays (?) with a gig lined up for 1st week April, plus others pending, and I had a couple of pre-booked dates, which probably did not fit...
There is a part of me that is happy not to have got this one, as the drummer did not make any attempt to make "eye-contact" at any point, which I've always found to be part of forming a great rhythm section...
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Just an update from work in the shed yesterday...
Finished off the wiring and fitted 3 XLR's on the back, wired thus...
The 2 Emminence's on one socket wired in series (150w 16 ohm)...
The 2 Cellestion's on a second wired in parellel (60w <6 ohm)...
The centre one has the two sets wired up in parallel (210w marginally 4> ohm)
First tests were with the Hiwatt running without the switch (50w) at below half on the output volume and 3/4 on the preamp... I was rather shocked by the output jump - very loud and a much greater treble out than I'm used to (yes, the Emminence's are guitar speakers, so to be expected...), so backed the treble to about 1/2...
The amp has distinctly differing sounds on the inputs one being much harsher than the other... never tried running them both together and playing with the balance control... something for future testing...
Overall, I am really pleased with the sound I am getting with the mix of the two speaker types... one minor issue is that I chose the two Celestion's with the best cones, but one of them has issues, so off to the shed to remove that one and replace with the spare one...
If all goes well I will start sound testing the Peter Cook wiring games later today...
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just an odd thought...
I found the cab label from one of my old (RIP) 4x12 SOUNDCITY columns and am tempted to put it on the front...
Should I go for authenticity and find a Marshall logo, or just leave her blank...?
Pics later...
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(http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu280/kjrstewart/Marshall%20412/20100606test.jpg)
Test ran her with my Hohner later and have almost certainly decided to sell off the Celestions to fund a further two Eminence speakers - that much of a difference to my ears...
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ev are really expensive - very clean - think Stanley Clarke.
eminence are great. Celestion are guitar speakers IMHO.
Madison (if you can find old ones ) are pretty good for cheap.
I put 4 eminence 12's in an old marshall cab and then sound pretty good - (kind of blended models - 2 LF and 2 not)
any cab in the marshal/hiwatt vein will greatly improve with some ports to allow the lowest frequencies to escape thge cab. Sealed cabs always sounded squised to me except for SVT cabs. IMHO.
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Clarke I like, but the budget won't run to very pricey purchases at the moment, and overtly clean will not suit my playing style...
The peculiarity (unbeknown to me) was that the original speakers were PA type (so rather oddball in this type of cab), they worked for me for some years, but compared to the new ones...
I'll get another pair of differing speakers (again Eminence) as soon as I can, but I can run on the pair I've got for now...
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I like Eminence for the $ I put them in my Marshall and Hiwatt cabs
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I'm (now) with you there, Bro... ;)
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Nice, Kenneth! And I'm sure you'll find a band!
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just an odd thought...
I found the cab label from one of my old (RIP) 4x12 SOUNDCITY columns and am tempted to put it on the front...
Should I go for authenticity and find a Marshall logo, or just leave her blank...?
Pics later...
Why don't you make your own logo Kenny? Here's some inspiration.
(http://www.signs-up.com/prod_images/Squirrel_xing_thumb_640.jpg)
(http://tshirts.goblackchicken.com/images/squirrel.gif)
(http://www.fun-with-pictures.com/image-files/how-to-draw-a-squirrel.gif)
(http://badgerblogger.com/wp-content/blindsquirrel.jpg)
(http://nikibrown.com/portfolio_img/angrysquirrel.gif)
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That brought tears (of laughter) to my eyes... ;D ;D ;D
Definitely the squirrel and crossbones...!
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;D
That old Sound City logo could be cool too! Don't throw it away!
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I've said it many times and I'll say it again, Eminence speakers are about the best bang for the buck out there. Aside from good sound and dependability, it doesn't take a lot of power to get them moving. With that in mind, you can use a higher power rated Eminenece speaker with a lower power rated amp(like a vintage head), and still get a good sound. With a lot of newer speakers you can't get away with that. it takes too much power to get them moving so they tend to not sound so good and if you get real carried away with mismatching your head to your speaker , you run the risk of blowing something up.
With Eminence speakers you can be a little more flexible. I've run my Gibson Atlas head which is around 40 watts through a 15" Eminence rated at around 235 watts constant and it sounds fantastic.
Rick
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Ok Kenny, here's your new logo.
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/kwstas79/squirrel.gif?t=1276030904)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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LMAO
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Hmm... sounds squirrelly...? ;D
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ev are really expensive - very clean - think Stanley Clarke.
They also crunch up quite nicely; think Zakk Wylde: he uses EVM12's in his guitar cabs, and they lack neither bite nor bottom. An old Marshall 4x12 bass cab isn't going to have any appreciable bass fundmental no matter what it's loaded with, but it doesn't matter because what most folks think of as "bass" isn't actual fundamental anyway.
eminence are great.
Eminence makes loads of speakers. Because they are the world's largest musical instrument speaker manufacturer, and they make many other "brands" to spec as OEM models, there is NO "Eminence sound." Saying Eminence speakers sound good is like saying, "I like pie." You need to get specific to the model.
Celestion are guitar speakers IMHO.
Likewise, Celestion also makes a vast array of speakers, even though their 30 watt "greenbacks" are how most musicians know them. All of Trace Elliot's very clean and big-bottomed bass cabinets from the 80's and 90's came loaded with Celestions and I'll put the 15" they used in their 1153 cabinet up against ANY 15", new or vintage.
any cab in the marshal/hiwatt vein will greatly improve with some ports to allow the lowest frequencies to escape thge cab.
...only if you tune the port to the cab volume and speaker parameters, which is highly unlikely as there simply isn't enough air volume in a 4x12 to make a port useful. I have a Marshall 4x15 that is basically a scaled-up 4x12 except that is ported. Even with larger speakers, air mass, and ports, it doesn't have much bottom.
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...but I do like pie... ;)
Got to admit, me old mukka, the pair of 75w "Governor's" I put in, on their own in that sealed cab, knock those old Celestions into a proverbial cocked hat - very pleased with the sound - pound for pound, I'm well pleased...
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I use Eminence Deltas........................they come in 16 ohm
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I shall bear that in mind when I get the next two... ;)
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Love the Sound Shitty!:D
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i put an eminence 15" in my twenty year old roland combo. speaker is rated at about 250 watts and the power supply is 60 watts. the tone is wonderfull, thick and quiet. for what i do i will never need another amp.
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i put an eminence 15" in my twenty year old roland combo. speaker is rated at about 250 watts and the power supply is 60 watts. the tone is wonderfull, thick and quiet. for what i do i will never need another amp.
That's what I'm talking about. You can't get away with that type of power mismatch and still get a decent sound with a lot of speakers. When I hook up my Gibson Atlas head at 35-40 watts to my Seymour Duncan cab with a 15" speaker that Eminence made to specs for Seymour Duncan , which is something like 235 watts constant and I don't even remember what the peak is, it sounds great. With a mismatch like that it should sound like crap but it doesn't . If you listened to it blindfolded , you would swear you were listening to a Sunn 200S with the volume on about 4. Nice warm pushy tube sound .
Rick