The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Other Bass Brands => Topic started by: Chris P. on January 21, 2013, 02:59:06 AM
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http://www.thomann.de/nl/guild_starfire_bass.htm
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Looks very nice! Short scale, great color.
(http://a2.images5.thomann.de/pics/prod/305062.jpg)
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The only thing keeping the GAS at bay is how the pup is way too close to the bridge for my tastes and that annoying bridge. ... but yeah, total beaut.
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That's pretty cool! Looks like a whole lineup of 'em - X-175, S-100, M-75, etc... the "Newark St. Collection"
http://www.lamusic.ca/Guild-Starfire-Electric-Bass-Cherry-Red-with-Cas-p/3792400866.htm
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I'd call that a Hagstrom-type pickup! After all, the DS is just a modded version of the hagstrom.
It's good to see the electric Guild lines return. The list prices look lower than the USA Guild lines from the 90s. I wonder if these are MIJ or MIK.
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I think I'll be watching those when they come up on the used market...they're a bit rich for me now. but that's one attractive bass. I happen to like the bridge design and the pickup placement looks OK to me.
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I think I'll be watching those when they come up on the used market...they're a bit rich for me now. but that's one attractive bass. I happen to like the bridge design and the pickup placement looks OK to me.
That's where it is on the original 65s(?) They moved it in '67 to the neck position IIRC. Buddy of mine has one of the originals. It's a great sounding bass, I've got a standing offer if he ever wants to sell it. One recently went for over 2k on Ebay, they come up VERY rarely.
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I think I'll be watching those when they come up on the used market...they're a bit rich for me now. but that's one attractive bass. I happen to like the bridge design and the pickup placement looks OK to me.
I'm with yo I like the bridge design and think that it's easy to adjust.
They ARE pricey!
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I'd be interested too.
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I'm with yo I like the bridge design and think that it's easy to adjust.
They ARE pricey!
Compared to an Ibanez Artcore, yes, they're pricey. Compared to the 90s Guilds, they aren't. Those listed for about $2200 US and sold in the $1400-1500 range. $1100 Canadian street price for this doesn't seem out of line compared to the new Gretsch hollowbodies.
I wonder why no US sites have them yet.
Oddly enough, there are three new Special Run Starfires on eBay right now, all in the $3500 range, from three different Guild dealers. These are Connecticut made, two are single pickup and one's a two-pickup model. But these have the button top pickups, steel saddles and bound bodies like the 90s Starfires.
That's where it is on the original 65s(?) They moved it in '67 to the neck position IIRC. Buddy of mine has one of the originals. It's a great sounding bass, I've got a standing offer if he ever wants to sell it. One recently went for over 2k on Ebay, they come up VERY rarely.
I have only seen one of those, about 7 or 8 years ago at South Austin Music. I didn't realize that was an early version.
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Interesting! Personally, I wouldn't get my hopes up, though there was a rumor at the "Let's Talk Guild" forum that Fred Hammon was getting back into things...
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I have only seen one of those, about 7 or 8 years ago at South Austin Music. I didn't realize that was an early version.
It's a great sounding bass with the pickup in the sweet spot!
http://www.vintageguitar.com/8058/the-guild-starfire-bass/
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It would make a nice addition next to my Midtown bass. I had a 60's Starfire refin and sold it at a huge profit. Should have kept it!
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Talked to my HOG rep and he's gonna check out availability in the US on these. He hadn't heard about them.
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It's a great sounding bass with the pickup in the sweet spot!
http://www.vintageguitar.com/8058/the-guild-starfire-bass/
I'm not bothered by the pickup location at all. It's not too close to the bridge.
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I'm not bothered by the pickup location at all. It's not too close to the bridge.
Nope, it's just right.
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I'm not bothered by the pickup location at all. It's not too close to the bridge.
;D
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This Newark st. model definitely looks more vintage than the GSR version if the specs and pic are accurate. Wonder how close to the original bi-sonic the pickup will be? Seems strange that "Canada's favourite music store" is called L.A. music.
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re pup position - "for my tastes" gus [sic]. Seems even a bit further back than the traditional P sweet spot, but I don't care to argue the point. Anything more than an inch or 2 away from the neck is just not for me.
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Different scale length than a P, of course, but it's not in the same location as a P. It's in about the same relative location as a MusicMan pickup.
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I heard that there might be some news from NAMM about new Guild basses. We'll see!
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I heard that there might be some news from NAMM about new Guild basses. We'll see!
Well, this one is new. Made in CT, USA and $3500
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-GUILD-STARFIRE-SF-1-BASS-LIMITED-EDITION-2-OF-11-CHERRY-/221180920778?pt=Guitar&hash=item337f6903ca
The pick up is in the same position as the bridge pup on a Starfire II. IMO stoopid.
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I thought those were old parts at the plant. . . .ya, ya, ya and only 40 are being made. :bored:
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Right, the humbucker ones are the GSR series - the one with a pickup that looks like a Bisonic is the one that people seem more interested in. Definitely a mystery! What pickup will they be using??? ??? :popcorn:
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Well, this one is new. Made in CT, USA and $3500
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-GUILD-STARFIRE-SF-1-BASS-LIMITED-EDITION-2-OF-11-CHERRY-/221180920778?pt=Guitar&hash=item337f6903ca
The pick up is in the same position as the bridge pup on a Starfire II. IMO stoopid.
That's one of the ones I was talking about earlier in the thread. Those pickups and bridge have to be leftover parts from the 90s Starfire bass. The pickups were made by Seymour Duncan for FMIC. The bridges had the steel saddles, unlike the originals.
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http://www.guildguitars.com/instruments/details/?partno=3792400866#simpleContained1
The big question for me is, how accurate will that pickup sound. Wonder if these ever make it to U.S. production with neck/both pickup options and Nitro?
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Thanks for the link. I guess it's official now! The Midtown has serious competition. That rpice point is attractive. I can't wait to see how they sell. I wouldn't want to see the price on a USA made one on down the road. It would be a lot more than $1500 MSRP.
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Seems nice but I'm not sure if that pickup is going to give the same growl as the original, especially if you go by these vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2_mDGKn42M
and an original
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0tF10YO91M
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I wonder where these are made...
(http://media.fmicdirect.com/guild/images/products/guitars/3792400866_frt_wmd_001.png)
UPD: apparently, these are made in Korea
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Yeah, that price point would indicate MIK. A semihollow MIJ would be a lot more.
I can't see US production on these. It wouldn't be as expensive as that factory special run, but still, the 90s versions went for roughly $1500 street. Nearly 20 years later you know street price would be well over $2000.
Hard to tell how close the pickup's tone will be to the original just from those samples. Too many other variables.
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Interesting that they're calling the pickup "Guild Bi-Sonic Bass" - what is it really?
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I think the sound of the bass in the vid is very usable... But it's so hard to judge a bass sound on youtube. Very compresses. Which amp, which settings, which cab, which mic, how is it mic'd, how is it recorded and EQ'd...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r685sFTukFs
another demo, this bass seems like kind of a tease to me. Calling thunderbucker ranch! make us some real bisonics please. The people demand it and Fred Hammon is MIA.
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sounds soooo sixties :)
I like it. that bass is tempting
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r685sFTukFs
another demo, this bass seems like kind of a tease to me. Calling thunderbucker ranch! make us some real bisonics please. The people demand it and Fred Hammon is MIA.
Now why would you think the bass in this video doesn't sound like a "real" Bi-sonic? It does to me. And it's an official Guild video.
Also, there's a big sonic difference between a Bi-sonic and Fred Hammon's Dark Star. I never cared for the Dark Star's tone, I do like the original Hagstrom Bi-sonic. In any case, maybe people are demanding the Dark Stars since Fred built up a demand and then disappeared, but I can't see Guild being interested in putting out a close-to-vintage-correct reissue and then putting in a hotrodded pickup that doesn't sound like the original.
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I'm skeptical that Fender, the parent company, would actually take a pair of Bisonics and reverse engineer them with the correct bobin, wire gauge and magnets etc. just to throw them in an import bass. I really hope I'm wrong but the sound in the demos just seems like nothing special to me. Could be the strings, playing technique, the amp or the way it was recorded. I just think there is still missing info as to the design of these pickups and will remain skeptical until proven otherwise. I am aware that darkstars and bisonics aren't the same exact pickup but do have similarities. Sorry if i bursted anyone's bubble.
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I'm skeptical that Fender, the parent company, would actually take a pair of Bisonics and reverse engineer them with the correct bobin, wire gauge and magnets etc. just to throw them in an import bass. I really hope I'm wrong but the sound in the demos just seems like nothing special to me. Could be the strings, playing technique, the amp or the way it was recorded. I just think there is still missing info as to the design of these pickups and will remain skeptical until proven otherwise. I am aware that darkstars and bisonics aren't the same exact pickup but do have similarities. Sorry if i bursted anyone's bubble.
We won't know the design of these pickups until someone takes one apart.
I doubt if Fender had to reverse engineer anything. My understanding is that the Bi-sonic was a Guild design made for them by Hagstrom, rather than an existing Hagstrom pickup that Guild bought. I could be wrong, though. In any case, it's not rocket science.
As to whether they would reverse engineer something only to put it into an import bass, that's simple: they want to actually sell them. I don't know how many Starfire basses they'll sell at about $1000 but I'm confident it will be at least ten times as many as they would sell at $2500. Probably much more than 10x. That's just the way the market is. People want quality at a reasonable price and very few bassists will pay what a USA Starfire would have to bring. It was never that popular a bass.
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We won't know the design of these pickups until someone takes one apart.
I doubt if Fender had to reverse engineer anything. My understanding is that the Bi-sonic was a Guild design made for them by Hagstrom, rather than an existing Hagstrom pickup that Guild bought. I could be wrong, though. In any case, it's not rocket science.
As to whether they would reverse engineer something only to put it into an import bass, that's simple: they want to actually sell them. I don't know how many Starfire basses they'll sell at about $1000 but I'm confident it will be at least ten times as many as they would sell at $2500. Probably much more than 10x. That's just the way the market is. People want quality at a reasonable price and very few bassists will pay what a USA Starfire would have to bring. It was never that popular a bass.
I think one problem Fred had was that the originals had over 30 parts to them. If you can sound the same for less it only makes sense.
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I think one problem Fred had was that the originals had over 30 parts to them. If you can sound the same for less it only makes sense.
Also keep in mind that Fred was a one-man low-production shop. He had to charge an appropriate price, and people were apparently willing to pay it. There are plenty of pickups with a lot of parts being made overseas at a much lower price. This new Bi-sonic may be more complex and more expensive to make than average, but it will still be a lot less expensive that what a small USA shop would have to charge.
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The position of the thumbrests would not work for me...other than that, I would bet it sounds pretty good.
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The whole Hagstrom bisonic history is fascinating. It's the platform Jack Casady, Phil Lesh and the intrepid folks at Alembic chose to support their forays into the electric bass sound of the future. Then there's the whole Darkstar renaissance it spawned and it's associated subsequent drama. Isn't Lakland's Chi sonic just an attempted solution to the fact Fred couldn't supply enough Darkstars for them? There's a Guild forum which claims Guild will offer the bisonics as an aftermarket part. I have a feeling there's going to be a whole bunch of bi-(sonic) curious bass players soon. :gay:
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I like the sound - and I note that Fender, as the parent, surely made certain that the amps used in the demo were vintage Fenders.
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If I get a review example I will screw out the pick up. There's a French company now making Bi-Sonic kinda pickups.
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If I get a review example I will screw out the pick up. There's a French company now making Bi-Sonic kinda pickups.
Our motto: 'Bo-Sonic, Kinda"
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The whole Hagstrom bisonic history is fascinating. It's the platform Jack Casady, Phil Lesh and the intrepid folks at Alembic chose to support their forays into the electric bass sound of the future. Then there's the whole Darkstar renaissance it spawned and it's associated subsequent drama. Isn't Lakland's Chi sonic just an attempted solution to the fact Fred couldn't supply enough Darkstars for them? There's a Guild forum which claims Guild will offer the bisonics as an aftermarket part. I have a feeling there's going to be a whole bunch of bi-(sonic) curious bass players soon. :gay:
I agree that the Chi-sonic was meant to be a DS replacement.
Again, not a DS fan, but it's a shame Fred didn't just license the design to a company that could meet demand. Royalties from someone else's product sales has got to be better than shutting off production (for whatever reason) and no sales.
FMIC would be smart to offer the new Bi-sonic separately.
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I just watched a Premiere Guitar Namm video on the new Guilds. The Starfire bass was not specifically mentioned but in describing how these models (Newark St Collection) were brought back to life the Fender rep said that original pick ups were sent to the factory in Korea to be replicated using the same materials and not fixed or updated in any way. There is hope. Here's the link for anyone interested:
http://www.premierguitar.com/Video/20130126/2112/NAMM_13_Guild_Guitarss_100_Polara_Starfire_IV_X_175B_Manhattan_A_150B_Savoy_Demos.aspx
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I love the sound of some of the big hollow body basses, but I am just not comfortable with the feel of them. The Epi Casady bass I used briefly sounded nice, but always dug into my arm. Now, if they did these again, I'd be really tempted.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/gweimer/GuildM85_1.jpg)
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My understanding is that the Bi-sonic was a Guild design made for them by Hagstrom, rather than an existing Hagstrom pickup that Guild bought. I could be wrong, though. In any case, it's not rocket science.
No, the bisonic is an original Hagström design. Hagström had them on their Coronado bass introduced in -63. Guild started buying them in -65 for the SF. Hagström also had a six string version of it, for bass, not guitar!!! The six-string is extremely rare. I have only seen one for sale ever here in Sweden. Asking price was about 10.000 usd. I got the 4-string version, which is also very rare. Truly amazing sound!
(http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/images/CatSelm64/P17FutuCorons.jpg)
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Close-up of the six-string bisonic:
(http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/images/FuBass6/Fu6Bbod.jpg)
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Fascinating...
I'm totally unfamiliar with these items... is that a selector switch between the pups of a potentiometer to slide between the pair...?
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Fascinating...
I'm totally unfamiliar with these items... is that a selector switch between the pups of a potentiometer to slide between the pair...?
No, slide is the volume. The four buttons are 1 & 2 - pickup selectors, and 3 & 4 - tone selectors. Hagström used to make accordions but after Elvis there was no market so the started making guitars instead. In their first design they used a lot of details from accordions, like those buttons. The even made guitars with necks completely covered in mother-of-pearl - they had so much in stock for the accordions. Guess they figured they might as well slap it on a guitar rather than letting it sit the warehouse.
I really hope this new bisonic is made to the original specs, but I doubt it. Rumour says it is not a true replica but a "modern remake" or something like that. The original uses unusually thin thread which is not at all common these days (darkstars have thicker gauge). But if the bobbin and all the hardware is the same one could always have them re-wound.
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Mungi, thanks for clearing that up.
I just watched a Premiere Guitar Namm video on the new Guilds. The Starfire bass was not specifically mentioned but in describing how these models (Newark St Collection) were brought back to life the Fender rep said that original pick ups were sent to the factory in Korea to be replicated using the same materials and not fixed or updated in any way. There is hope. Here's the link for anyone interested:
http://www.premierguitar.com/Video/20130126/2112/NAMM_13_Guild_Guitarss_100_Polara_Starfire_IV_X_175B_Manhattan_A_150B_Savoy_Demos.aspx
Well, then, I expect them to be like the originals.
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I still have doubts about the pickup. First of all, I think the promo video does not sound close enough to an original bisonic, even though there are some similarities. Like me, they play through a Bassman. I am familliar with the combo Bassman+bisonic. I don't think it has to do with the recording. That does not color the sound enough to make it unrecognizable. It might be the strings. I have had rounds on my Guild, but there are rounds and there are rounds...
But the thing that feeds my doubts the most is how they promote it. If I were in charge of the promotion at Guild, I would do anything to clear away any doubts. They should know very well people have doubts, after all, the standard of the industry is not to make authentic remakes but to make "modern interpretations". Buying a new Fender Stratocaster is not the same as buying the guitar Hendrix played, and Gibson can't even make a descent PAF or mudbucker these days. So, if it is a genuine copy of the original, Guild should be very interested in letting everybody know precisely that. I would state loud and clear it is a genuine copy, I would have promotion pictures of the pickup out of the bass, and I would give details such as kOhm, magnet type and so on. And I would also state clearly it is a copy of the Hagström bisonic and not a copy of the Darkstar. After all, what many, perhaps most, people like about the SF is not the bass itself but the pickup. The post-69 Guild humbucker version does not have the same vintage value, and it is not associated with Casady, Lesh and Alembic.
Also, seeing as Fender owns Guild, if it is the genuine thing, I would also make a Fender Berry Oakley Sig Tractor bass and launch it at the same time as the SF.
So, the question is, are the people at Guild really this bad a promotion? Or do they not have the genuine thing to promote?
That said, I sooooooooo much hope this is the genuine thing. It would be the best news ever. Only a genuine remake of the Gibson LP Triumph could come close. (Not that I need any of those two seeing as I have vintage ones already). ;D
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It's also strange that Hagstrom, which is still in business, doesn't make the bi-sonic for themselves. If you're looking for spot on vintage, I tend to believe no reissue, no matter how lovingly made, can ever truly capture a vintage instrument exactly.
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Old (original) Hagström "died" in 1983. New Hagstroms are branded Chinese products since 2004. No legacy exists.
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Do Chinese Hagströms have an umlaut?
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Do Chinese Hagströms have an umlaut?
Yes but it's not made as well.
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Apparently, they haven't. Fixed my message.
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It's also strange that Hagstrom, which is still in business, doesn't make the bi-sonic for themselves. If you're looking for spot on vintage, I tend to believe no reissue, no matter how lovingly made, can ever truly capture a vintage instrument exactly.
Actually, the new Hagström guitars and basses have little to do with Hagström. The Swedish company Hagström still exists but the brand name Hagström is used under license by the Canadian company American Music & Sound. But I agree, it is strange that they don't make the bisonic themselves. American Music & Sound does make all pickups and they have modeled them after the original Hagström pickups. The could even have but it in the Viking bass, since they changed the original design of that anyhow (it was called Concorde in the 60s - only the guitar was called Viking). It got the exact same body measures as the Guild SF.
The history of Hagström is very interesting. The company is located close to the border to Norway in a small rather remote village called Älvdalen in a province called Dalarna (which is by many Swedes considered to be the essence of "Swedishness"). It was founded in 1921 but it was not until the 50s that they started making guitars, basses and amps. They also had the license for Fender amps in Sweden. It was a family business and just about everybody in the village of Älvdalen worked there. They were very innovative. Among other things they had a patent for a special guitar pickups using local Swedish magnets and of course with their patented H-truss rod the could make "the fastest neck in the world" (their slogan). Some wellknown people have played Hagström, Elvis and Zappa for instance. Noel Redding sometimes played an 8-string bass from Hagström. The also made PAs. ABBA used Hagström PAs on their 1974 world tour.
I got a friend who makes pickups. He has studied both the DS and the bisonic. Recently he re-wound a bisonic from a Hagström Coronado for a bass player from a famous band from Älvdalen. He actually got some NOS bobbins from Hagström to fix the pickup. You can see some info on his facebook: http://www.facebook.com/UrbanPickups (http://www.facebook.com/UrbanPickups)
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I found a couple other aftermarket bi-sonic copies. These NuSonics
http://www.lhnborn.com/page7.htm
and Curtis Novak makes a bi-sonic in mudbucker clothing
http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-BS.shtml
Curtis is rumored to be working on a standard looking replica bi-sonic as well.
So even if the new Guild bi-sonic blows, there's other options. Have to admit some of those other Newark st. guitar models sounded sweet.
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I found a couple other aftermarket bi-sonic copies. These NuSonics
http://www.lhnborn.com/page7.htm
and Curtis Novak makes a bi-sonic in mudbucker clothing
http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/EB-BS.shtml
Curtis is rumored to be working on a standard looking replica bi-sonic as well.
So even if the new Guild bi-sonic blows, there's other options. Have to admit some of those other Newark st. guitar models sounded sweet.
My friend was planning on making bisonics. I don't know if this put a hold on those plans. I got help from people who has worked at Hagström.
Yes, the guitars sound fantastic. I might get me a Starfire III or a IV later on.
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Mungi, thanks for the link to Urban Pickups.
I don't see any reason for them to stress that it's not a Darkstar. I can't imagine why anyone would think so to begin with, since they clearly call it a Bi-sonic. Fans of the Dark Star seem to be hung up on the sound of the pickup, not on Guild basses.
As for promotion, what you're seeing at NAMM is a lot more than Fender has ever done for Guild. Back in the day, Guilds never sold nearly as well as the Gibsons most of them were patterned after. Their appeal today will be limited compared to solid body Fenders. If it weren't for Fender, the brand would be long extinct. I'm excited about these, the bass and the guitars sound great to me. OTOH the best that can be hoped for is that they sell moderately well.
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I think the bass will sell reasonably well (genuine bisonic or not). It is a legendary model for sure. The JC Sig is one of Epiphone's best seller and it has been in production for a long time. This bass will appeal to the same people (and in a couple of years might be in the same price range). It might even sell better than the Jackbass only because it says Guild and not Epiphone on the headstock.
The guitars make a fine budget alternative for a Gibson hollowbody, just like in the old days. And they do sound sweet!
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Sounds nice in the video.
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Would be nice if the bass sounded kinda like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjfhsLuOEWI
but I'm sure Jack's technique and all those knobs might have something to do with the sound.
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That is the understatement of the day.
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...
but I'm sure Jack's technique and all those knobs might have something to do with the sound.
Not to mention the modified pickup.
Funny how Jack and Phil moved past those basses after a short time, yet people are still looking for the sound they gave up. NTTAWWT.
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I have a Hagstrom HB-4 but its sound has rather metallic overtones which I haven't gotten rid of, and the pots were crackly and problematic from the factory. I'm thinking it's headed to Ebay soon.
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/Electric%20Basses/Hagstrom%20HB-4/P1020452.jpg)
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/Electric%20Basses/Hagstrom%20HB-4/P1020454.jpg)
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Not to mention the modified pickup.
Funny how Jack and Phil moved past those basses after a short time, yet people are still looking for the sound they gave up. NTTAWWT.
The only thing he did to modify the pickups was to add another magnet. Bisonics usually have two magnets in the bridge position and only one for the neck pickup. So there is an empty slot there where he put a magnet. I did that myself. It gives a little higher output but does not change the sound much.
What they did was that they put in electronics that lowered the impedance, but the left the pickup untouched. There is a guy that came on talkbass that told me about this. Jack got it wrong in that flyguitar interview where he says the pickups were low-z. They're not in themselves but the lowered the impedance. Check out the Club Darkstar thread on talkbass to read all about it.
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Btw, has anyone who has owned a bisonic measured the kOhm on it? I got four bisonic. One is broken, one measures around 6 kOhm, one around 14 and one is above 16. Huge difference there.
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Would be nice if the bass sounded kinda like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjfhsLuOEWI
but I'm sure Jack's technique and all those knobs might have something to do with the sound.
I think the guy you posted earlier comes pretty close to this sound. He doesn't nail it but it's close enough. A lot closer than the promo clip with the reissue.
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Casady played his Starfire on the Hot Tuna Live album from the New Orleans house at Berkeley right? That's one of my all time favorite bass tones and album. I'm guessing the bass was modified by then also. Seems like the pickups can vary greatly. Maybe there was no set amount of windings? This guy has a nice one.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=15HvA-HEglQ
And the same guy has another vid that makes it sound like an EB0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8oPrclHk3nw
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Casady played his Starfire on the Hot Tuna Live album from the New Orleans house at Berkeley right? That's one of my all time favorite bass tones and album. I'm guessing the bass was modified by then also. Seems like the pickups can vary greatly. Maybe there was no set amount of windings? This guy has a nice one.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=15HvA-HEglQ
And the same guy has another vid that makes it sound like an EB0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8oPrclHk3nw
Oh yes, the tone on that album is the best bass tone ever! It's his second SF (same as in the video you posted) played through a Versatone Pan-O-Flex. The bass had low-pass, hi-pass and band-pass filter for each pickup I think.
Strings will of coarse do a lot with the sound. I just tried Chromes on my SF. Didn't like it at all. TI-flats gives a good sound but the are so floppy. I will try DR Legends (HiBeams flats) next. And then there is Jack's right hand technique. The way he tends to hit the strings rather than pluck them is crucial I think.
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The only thing he did to modify the pickups was to add another magnet. Bisonics usually have two magnets in the bridge position and only one for the neck pickup. So there is an empty slot there where he put a magnet. I did that myself. It gives a little higher output but does not change the sound much.
What they did was that they put in electronics that lowered the impedance, but the left the pickup untouched. There is a guy that came on talkbass that told me about this. Jack got it wrong in that flyguitar interview where he says the pickups were low-z. They're not in themselves but the lowered the impedance. Check out the Club Darkstar thread on talkbass to read all about it.
I thought Rick Turner said they did much more than just put a magnet in, but it's been a long time and I no longer have the article.
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I thought Rick Turner said they did much more than just put a magnet in, but it's been a long time and I no longer have the article.
Yes, I thought so too. I was very surprised to hear otherwise (and I looked like a fool since I insisted Jack had low-z pups). But that guy on talkbass said he knows Jack and that Jack had said that he probably knows Jack's basses better than Jack himself does. So I guess it's true. Phil's bass had low-z though.
Here is the thread on TB: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/club-dark-star-731040/index31.html#post13445950 (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/club-dark-star-731040/index31.html#post13445950)
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Jack was/is the master of constant fiddling with basses. I'm amazed he can remember much about any of them, because so many of them were in a constant state of ongoing mods.
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It is something of a cliche but I do think it is true that much of the Jack's tone comes from the right hand. It is certainly more true about Jack than about other players. I don't think the electronics that they put in had very much to do with it. According to the guy on TB, that was all passive controls. It was a battery in there but that was for the thingy that lowered the impedance of the pickup. So it was not active low-z pickups and not active tone controls according to him. To my experience, a SF bass with bisonics sounds similar to Jack's modded SF, but it does not sound like Phil's EB-3 with bisonics. My Dearmond SF with darkstars sounds closer to Phil's sound than my Guild SF with bisonics. But my darkstarred Dearmond does not sound anywhere close to Jack's SF. I think a Epi JC or a Ric 4001/4003 with only the bridge pickup comes closer to Jack's SF than a darkstarred bass does.
What's your experience here? People can have very different ideas about sound. To me, Jack's sound, while having a wide frequency, has a lot to do with the focused mids, while Phil's sound has flatter frequencies, perhaps even wider frequency rate.
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Steve Boone from the Lovin Spoonful played an un modified starfire on all those early albums. So there's another usable reference point.
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Steve Boone from the Lovin Spoonful played an un modified starfire on all those early albums. So there's another usable reference point.
Didn't know that. Chris Hillman played on also, but I don't know if he used it on recordings.
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I pulled this from TB. Justin Meldal-Johnsen's take on the Starfire after playing it at Namm:
Played it. Enjoyed it, seems pretty well made, sounds good. My time was brief, and the surrounding noise prevented a deep scrutiny. Neck size is a bit smaller in than the originals, with a shallower profile and a flatter radius.
It is a Korean instrument. So, while this helps price point, there's a certain feeling in its build quality that just doesn't compare to one of my USA reissues from '98. First thing I noticed in this regard was the thickness of the finish, for instance. WAY too thick. The next thing I noticed was the thing that seems endemic to quite literally every single Korean instrument I've ever held, which is the slightly marginalized quality of the fret work. All that said, it felt very solid (certainly as good as an Epiphone Jack Cassidy, for instance).
I'm a little miffed that Fender didn't consult with me on it, only because they have promised such things to me over the years in several attempts to get the Starfire project off the ground. Each time it was brought up as a possibility, I had made it abundantly clear that this project needed a lot of TLC and careful management and expert artist consultation from myself and others, and that I would of course had helped out happily with no compensation required. Alas, it was not to be. However, when I saw the instrument today, my immediate thought was that I was glad that they didn't completely f*&k it up. I would just have far preferred a different pickup position as well as a more true-to-form neck profile, more thoughtful finishing, and USA manufacturing.
That's my report from the field. Otherwise an extremely uneventful and boring NAMM show, with the only exception being the very excellent sonics demonstrated by the Prophet 12 and Moog Sub Phatty, both of which I'll own in short order. My daughter came with me and was very patient, and we had a good time together. But jeez: do I really need to go to every NAMM show? Unless I REALLY need to, I just don't think I need to.
Back to an insane work week.
Best,
JMJ
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Didn't know that. Chris Hillman played on also, but I don't know if he used it on recordings.
Check out this vid. You can see the Guild logo on the headstock at around 22 seconds in.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X3rAvEKuETA
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Maybe jmj will get brought in to consult for USA production in the future.
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I appreciate the concerns mentioned above, but manufacturing in the US would probably add $1000 to the price - not a good thing IMO.
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I appreciate the concerns mentioned above, but manufacturing in the US would probably add $1000 to the price - not a good thing IMO.
I noticed on that Canadian site posted earlier in this thread that there is an "American Patriarch" series that appears to feature US-made versions of a few of the guitars (M-75, etc...). Price on those was ~$5K, compared to around $1K for the MIK version.
Yeowch!
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I like Justin and his concerns may be justified, but it sure sounds like it could be a case of sour grapes on his part. I'll have to check one out in person to see if I agree. Fender's US fret work is nothing special either, and the 90s US Guild reissues had thick finishes. In any case US production of these would be well over twice as much.
Back to the case of what was done to the Bisonic by Rick Turner. I looked at several sites and conversations and all I can say is, opinions vary. Some insist that the Bisonic neck pickup always had two magnets, others that it was added by Rick, it may or may not have been rewound, etc. Memories get confused. Nobody has a definitive answer as far as I can see.
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The 60's and early 70's are not notable for the clarity of memory on the part of many musicians.
"What decade? Did someone notice a decade?"
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The 60's and early 70's are not notable for the clarity of memory on the part of many musicians.
"What decade? Did someone notice a decade?"
you nailed it :)
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The 60's and early 70's are not notable for the clarity of memory on the part of many musicians.
To be fair I'm sure neither Jack nor Rick realized at the time that they were producing what would become an iconic instrument. It was more like "Let's try this! Yeah!" and off they'd go.
Another factor in Jack's tone at the time was his use of Pyramid flats.
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To be fair I'm sure neither Jack nor Rick realized at the time that they were producing what would become an iconic instrument. It was more like "Let's try this! Yeah!" and off they'd go.
Another factor in Jack's tone at the time was his use of Pyramid flats.
Right. They had no idea what kind of nostalgia the future would bring.
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Right. They had no idea what kind of nostalgia the future would bring.
Remember the future! (one of my favorite prog albums, by Nektar, though that had Rickenbackers on it - oh, never mind...)
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C'mon 7ender, bring on the Jetstar. Peter Tork would approve.
http://www.gbase.com/gear/guild-jetstar-bass-1966-sunburst
Hey it's like a retarded thunderbird!
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The price is really stupid!
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oops.
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Fender already put this out under the DeArmond name. It flopped.
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Fender already put this out under the DeArmond name. It flopped.
Pilgrim and i have them. His is that purpleblue color mine is black. Actually plays great , pickups are weak. Curtis does a retro of the pickup with new magnets and different wire that i will have to do eventually
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They could put a bi-sonic in it now, which the DeArmonds didn't have. The one on the Gbase site is very rare with the 4 in line headstock and a hagstrom bi-sonic. Most of the 4 in line headstock versions had switched to different pickups. There are less of these original jetstars than Tbirds as well. This dude looked cool playing one.
(http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o632/4stringer77/Joan/Brigitte/pt001_zps5026fdd1.jpg)
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I love the sound of some of the big hollow body basses, but I am just not comfortable with the feel of them. The Epi Casady bass I used briefly sounded nice, but always dug into my arm. Now, if they did these again, I'd be really tempted.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/gweimer/GuildM85_1.jpg)
+1. thats the one i always GAS for. I have the 90's dearmond and it is just a hollow body style bass. not very comfortable unless you are strickly a pick guy. Casady bass sounds great but is a beast to play. scale is way too big for that body and i am way past my growing age.
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I have a set of the Novak pickups. I sent out a pair of dead Ripper pickups to him to fix. He offered the bisonic which i jumped on. Without the screw pole adjustment the bisonics really look like p90's so they fit snuggly in the ripper housing. put them in my ripper. then replaced the 4 way switch with a series parallel switch. The bisonics are single coil and i wired them like a j bass VVT so the switch really adds a nice kick and kinda covers the p bass things pretty well. Need to try it with new and better strings before i have final comment but it sounds great. thinking half rounds as it is a little on the too bright side. never thought i would say that about a Gibson bass.
sorry for the bad pictures
(http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac102/desantisjn/PC200028_zps8debc05f.jpg)
(http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac102/desantisjn/PC200026_zps4fcd554a.jpg)
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Btw, has anyone who has owned a bisonic measured the kOhm on it? I got four bisonic. One is broken, one measures around 6 kOhm, one around 14 and one is above 16. Huge difference there.
I have three DS and they are all in the 6-7 range
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Pilgrim and i have them. His is that purpleblue color mine is black. Actually plays great , pickups are weak. Curtis does a retro of the pickup with new magnets and different wire that i will have to do eventually
I confess that I wasn't playing the Jetstar and moved it on to another owner. Liked it, just had other basses I liked better. If I kept it I probably would have had Curtis Novak do the pickups as suggested.
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I confess that I wasn't playing the Jetstar and moved it on to another owner. Liked it, just had other basses I liked better. If I kept it I probably would have had Curtis Novak do the pickups as suggested.
Saw one of the DeArmond reissues at Guitar Showcase in San Jose, CA for $295 - not sure if that's a good price, probably not considering one would probably want to upgrade the pickups - not that I'm interested...
(http://imageshack.us/a/img189/3438/jetstar.jpg)