The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: gearHed289 on April 22, 2011, 11:39:57 AM
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I'm thinking of getting a nice combo for certain gigs. Probably a 2x10 or maybe 1x15. Minimum 300 watts. I played through a SWR Redhead years ago and thought it was pretty great. Those can be found used for around $700. Anybody have any experience with the Ashdown MAG C210-300? FYI - my amp is really nothing more than a floor rumbler at this point as I am running a DI off my pedal board and using in-ear monitors. However, I still want it to sound good and rock the house! ;D
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i guess the day they started putting big power in combos was a dream come true for lots of folks. it sure was for me. kenny and gweimer both have ashdown combos btw.
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I was never a fan of combos because they were subject to develop rattles. But these days there's nothing inside them to rattle, so my next amp will likely be a combo too ;D.
Rick
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Been researching over the weekend and found this - Class D power AND neo speakers = 350 watt 2x10 @ 33 pounds. Hmmm...
http://backstage.musiciansfriend.com/Bass/Bass-Amplifiers-Effects/Bass-Amplifiers/Bass-Combo-Amps/Solid-State-Combo-Bass-Amps/MB210-2x10-500W-Ultralight-Bass-Combo-Amp.site1prod581053.product
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If memory serves me right (which it not always does) BasVarken tested an Orange Class-D amp and found it to be not very dynamic. In other words a somewhat compressed sound. Another forumite from a Dutch bassguitarists forum (not sure if he is member here) confirmed that this is normal behavior for a class-D amp. You have to like it. If you do than it is a very efficient way of amplifieing.
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Yes that is correct; I tested an Orange Terror Bass 500 Watt class D amp plus their smart cabs 2x12 and 2x10.
The Terror Bass lacks all dynamics that I'm used to with the Orange AD200 and any other Full Tube or even Solid State amp I've ever used.
For the first time in my 25+ years bass playing career I had to use the volume knob on my bass guitar, to create some sort of dynamics in my playing as the amp itself did not respond to the nuances I make with my right hand...
It puzzles me why engineers can't make an intelligent digital (or class D) power amp part that "knows" when you intend to either whisper or pound with your bass.
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Class D amps are always operating at the limits of their power supply and their output devices any time they're on, so "extra" demands on the output stage like normal playing transients are either met by increased wall current consumption to supply the needed power or the power supply will simply hold output at maximum, but the transient will not be reproduced. A few expensive PA type class D power amps have dual supply rails for this reason and more robust output transistors to give them the extra "oomph" of a class A/B amp. They also don't weigh much less than a conventional A/B amp. Their only benefit is more efficient operation at low volume.
There is no "peak" power like in an class A/B amp, where the inductive potential of the power transformer and the main power supply filter caps act as a reservoir, storing "unused" supply current until a transient expends it. The recharge rate is the frequency of the wall current, 60Hz in the US and 50Hz most elsewhere. While switching supply amps have a much faster recharge rate, up in the radio frequency range, their inherently much smaller power transformers and filter cap banks give them a much less amount of stored power, which is why a quality class A/B amp can outperform switching amps rated at twice its power, even before wall current is taken into account.
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Thanks for that explantion, Psycho.
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That's not to say that you get NO dynamics with a class D. My Genz-Benz Shuttle allows me to drop the gain for quiet passages if I just ease up on the old fingers.
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No,but the aural equivalent in perceived volume will be rated much lower with a conventional amp topology. Manufacturers know that rating numbers sell amps much more than actual playing when it comes to the modern marketplace and sight-unseen sales of amps. They don't lie in their ratings, but they do neglect to mention that their 500 watt class D amp is going to have the equivalent dynamics of a 150-200 watt class A/B amp. As long as you are aware of that and have those expectations of performance ahead of time, it's not a big deal, but to the vast majority of the amp market, it's a '500 watt amp that weighs the same as my bass!' only to find that what their idea of 500 watts should sound like ends up being alot more than class D ratings imply. Comparing apples to apples, a Steve Rabe-era 300 watt SWR Redhead (Class A/B) will absolutely EAT the MB210 combo in volume and dynamics but weigh nearly three times as much.
Also, not all class D amps are the same. I have found the Genz Benz ultralights to be far superior to the much-hyped Markbass amps.
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Been researching over the weekend and found this - Class D power AND neo speakers = 350 watt 2x10 @ 33 pounds. Hmmm...
http://backstage.musiciansfriend.com/Bass/Bass-Amplifiers-Effects/Bass-Amplifiers/Bass-Combo-Amps/Solid-State-Combo-Bass-Amps/MB210-2x10-500W-Ultralight-Bass-Combo-Amp.site1prod581053.product
I tried one of these a few weeks ago and was very underwhelmed and I'm a big fan of GK :sad:
Rick
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I have found the Genz Benz ultralights to be far superior to the much-hyped Markbass amps.
My God... Sysop! Sysop!! PBG dares to criticize the greatest amp brand ever!! He must be silenced. We can tolerate no criticism of MarkBass.
;)
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I'm not impressed by the Markbass at all. Ho hum, in a few years the trendoids will find a new bandwagon to jump on.
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I couldn't get myself to play a Mark Bass based on aesthetics alone. :-\
(http://www.pollsb.com/photos/40/23160-honey_nut_cheerios_buzz_bee.jpg)
I'm going to GC to check out the MB210. With my octave divider. 8) Again, I just need SOMETHING remotely acceptable. Front of house will do the heavy lifting, and my in-ears are all I hear on stage.
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My God... Sysop! Sysop!! PBG dares to criticize the greatest amp brand ever!! He must be silenced. We can tolerate no criticism of MarkBass.
;)
That's why I got kicked off Talkbass.
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We have a Mark, she plays bass, cross-dresses, what's the problem...? ;D
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I tried their (Markbass) SD800 and also their 210 combo and took both back to GC. Just could not get the sound I wanted out of them. I also did not like the GK MB210. The MB115 works better for some reason. Never tried the MB212. I just use it as a stage monitor too. Be aware that the DI is not padded and it is line out and not direct out so the sound guy will hear when you turn it up.
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I thought it was me with the Markbass. No way I could get anything acceptable out of one, not to mention the way they look.
Thanks, Anthony, for explaining why I do not want to replace my SVP with a Class D power amp I can afford.
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I also did not like the GK MB210. The MB115 works better for some reason. Never tried the MB212. I just use it as a stage monitor too. Be aware that the DI is not padded and it is line out and not direct out so the sound guy will hear when you turn it up.
The thing I like about the 210 is you can run an extension cab. I may very well buy the lightweight 1x15 they offer. Thanks for the heads up on the DI. Not a problem though. I run off a DI on my pedal board.
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OK, spent some time at GC this afternoon.
Tried the GK.... It just didn't do it for me. Tone shaping was just not happening, and it farted out when I pushed some lows around B-C# on the E string.
Plugged in to a MarkBass 210 of some sort. Eh... It couldn't really take the abuse either, and I didn't even hit it too hard.
Then I saw a little Ampeg Micro VR mini stack. I tried it and was surprised at how good it sounded. The tone controls are limited, and it's only 150 watts, but damn... it actually SOUNDS like an Ampeg.
Finally, the sales guy insisted I check out an Acoustic B200 combo - 200 watts through a 15. No Class D stuff here. I think this is the one, especially at $350 brand new! It's heavy - around 70 pounds, but I can deal with that. Lighter than a Redhead, and blows away the GK that I really wanted to like. Probably going back tomorrow to pick it up. ;D
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Sounds like happy-camper time
Good luck Tom...
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I had an acoustic B200 head with a 410 and 115 cabinet that I bought 2 years ago and used it for several outdoor Texas summer gigs with no problems. Well, it was so hot at one gig that one of the metal caps came unglued from the knob. Probably should have gotten the combo amp for portability but I got a great deal by buying the set all together.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/ffa23l.jpg)
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Yeah, the GK B210 was a real disappointment to me too, and like I said before , I've been a pretty big GK fan. That GK just didn't do it for me in any category :sad: I walked away feeling like it should have said Silvertone or Airline on the nameplate instead of GK . That Acoustic is a nice sounding amp, they are strong , full sounding and lots of meaty bottom end ;D. The Markbass 210 sounded pretty good to me, but I think anything would have sounded good compared to the GK. The price tag on the Markbass was a bit too tall for what it was . I'm gonna have to find a Genz Benz to put through the paces.
Rick
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Bought the Acoustic today, gigged it tonight. Went great! Nice to see a conservatively rated amp. Very loud 200 watts. I had the master on about 2 (or "8:30"). The band (skeptical) loved it. Thinking of building a 2x10 extension cab...
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I haven't yet played one but the new pair of SS Ampegs are intriguing. They have the modern textbook size amp with crazy power, and they will do an old school portaflex set up they have. For looks, weight, and bang I really want these to be the deal.
I am just coming to terms with all this class D neo speaker stuff. I don't like blasting, and 100w has always been a good club volume marker for me. But if they can do that volume without killing my back, I am so happy. More is better. As a bassplayer I have always aspired to be a "one-trip" guy.
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Bob Glaub did the last Crosby Stills and Nash tour with a pair of Ampeg Micro VR/SVT 210AV stacks, played thru one with the other as a backup. A mutual friend says he was really happy with them.
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I haven't yet played one but the new pair of SS Ampegs are intriguing. They have the modern textbook size amp with crazy power, and they will do an old school portaflex set up they have. For looks, weight, and bang I really want these to be the deal.
I am just coming to terms with all this class D neo speaker stuff. I don't like blasting, and 100w has always been a good club volume marker for me. But if they can do that volume without killing my back, I am so happy. More is better. As a bassplayer I have always aspired to be a "one-trip" guy.
I am actually planning on going to GC to check these out this weekend. Mixed reactions so far. LAst thing i read was that the 15" is lacking bottom because of the sealed cab. I am thinking about getting the head with the 2 10's instaed and butting it on top of a nice thumpy ported cab....
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I've been using a Walkabout Scout and digging the tone. Used would be better - they're NOT cheap. The 15" version is more giggable. The 12" would probably need an extension cab in most situations and would defeat the purpose of buying a combo.
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I haven't yet played one but the new pair of SS Ampegs are intriguing. They have the modern textbook size amp with crazy power, and they will do an old school portaflex set up they have. For looks, weight, and bang I really want these to be the deal.
I am just coming to terms with all this class D neo speaker stuff. I don't like blasting, and 100w has always been a good club volume marker for me. But if they can do that volume without killing my back, I am so happy. More is better. As a bassplayer I have always aspired to be a "one-trip" guy.
Come on in...the water's fine!
(http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/apowell1/Electric%20Basses/Amps-Speakers/IMAG0163.jpg)
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Hey Pilgrim,
Let's hear a little more about Genz Benz. Dammit , you've got me curious ;D
Rick
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Hey Pilgrim,
Let's hear a little more about Genz Benz. Dammit , you've got me curious ;D
Rick
I had a long answer written and then nuked it. DAMN!
The Shuttle 6.0 combo has an amp that weighs 3.75 pounds docked on a 12" speaker, and the package weighs 32 pounds total. It's made as a combo with a speaker cable already attached to the 12T speaker where the amp docks - just plug it in. The 12T sensitivity is 97 dB, which is decent - it puts out a LOT of sound.
See: http://genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&mid=2258&sid=610&cid=95
I replaced a Sunn Coliseum-300 amp and Peavey BX115 cab with this. The Genz sounds a bit more clear, and dialing up the preamp provides tube OD on the 12ZX7 preamp tube. the result is a sound with plenty of bottom, but better note definition than I got before.
I bought the Shuttle with a pair of 12" (12T) speakers, but I'm selling the second speaker because someone traded in a 2x10 Shuttle cab (32 pounds) at my local dealer and I really like it. As you can see in my earlier post, the 12T combo stacks perfectly on top of the 210T cab.
The power rating on the Shuttle 6.0 is 375W / 8 ohms, 600W / 4 ohms, but that's peak power, not RMS. However, I can tell you that I wouldn't hesitate to play a hall that held 700+ people with this cab and no other speakers. It is capable of great volume! Some folks like the Shuttle 9.0 better because it's voiced a bit deeper and is rated 500W/ 8 ohms and 900W / 4 ohms.
The Genz warranty is 3 years when bought from a registered dealer, and they monitor the amp threads on Talkbass and provide a ton of info in response to all questions. Their reputation for support and service is absolutely stellar.
Shuttle 6.0:
(http://genzbenz.com/pics/models/shuttle6_lg.jpg)
Shuttle 9.0:
(http://genzbenz.com/pics/models/Shuttle9_lg.jpg)
There are long threads about the 6.0 and 9.0 on Talkbass...here are just a couple:
6.0:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-shuttle-6-0-appreciation-thread-713786/
9.0:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-shuttle-9-0-discussion-thread-594562/
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The GB stuff is incredible. It actually lives up to most of the hype AND you can buy it from Pete at Baddass.
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Thanks for all the info ;D I'm looking to power a 2 12 Emenince/tweeter Avatar cab that's rated at 500watts , so this GB should more than do the trick. I have to look around for a local shop that handles them. I noiced a lot of talk about swapping the stock 12AX7 for a beefier tube. What do they come with, and what if anything would you recommend as an upgrade?
Thanks again ,
Rick
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There's a new ultralight they make that sounds more "SVT" from the get-go, the Streamliner. I imagine the Shuttles come with some sort of Sovtek and you'd have to see what, if anything, you'd like to change in the amp's tone before I could suggest a certain tube.
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My recommendation would be "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'll bet you'd be perfectly happy with the stock tube - whatever it is. I like the sound enough that I've never needed to look.
And thanks to PBG for the vote of confidence in Genz-Benz. Very high quality stuff with high quality performance. I admit in public that I'm really a believer!
I searched TalkBass but didn't find any info on what tube is in there. These Shuttle amps have been discussed at length, and the G-B guys have provided quite a bit of info - although probably more about the 9.0 than the 6.0. I wouldn't be surprised if both had the same tube...whatever it is.
About their customer service - read this short thread: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/genz-benz-customer-service-1-a-768242/
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What makes the Genz Benz better sounding than a MarkBass? How have they solved the inherent problems of a class D power amp?
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Genz Benz amps have better supply regulation and an outright beefier power supply to start out with. They design in a bit of headroom, where with most class D amps, what you get is what you get. The amp still won't last as long as us old farts are used to seeing, but it's a quantum leap above Markbass.
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Genz Benz amps have better supply regulation and an outright beefier power supply to start out with. They design in a bit of headroom, where with most class D amps, what you get is what you get. The amp still won't last as long as us old farts are used to seeing, but it's a quantum leap above Markbass.
So, the usual suspects again.
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The GB stuff is incredible. It actually lives up to most of the hype AND you can buy it from Pete at Baddass.
What are your impressions of the Orange 500 w Terror bass? i tried it alongside a GB and found the sound much more to my liking!
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I yield to PBG on that one. I've seen the Orange heads but never tried one.
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I use Orange and Marshall combos for one band:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/iamthebassman/VITS002.jpg)
And Ampeg for the other:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/iamthebassman/suncity010-1.jpg)
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What are your impressions of the Orange 500 w Terror bass? i tried it alongside a GB and found the sound much more to my liking!
I've never seen one in person.
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What makes the Genz Benz better sounding than a MarkBass?
The three tubes in the GB Streamliner make a heck of a difference. I don't have any beef with Markbass, their gear has served me well, but my Streamliner 900 is an amazing little head.
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Hmmm.......Streamliner has three preamp tubes and costs considerably more. Do those other two tubes make that much difference?
I have no immediate plans to dump my Avatar 2 12 cab but I am curious as to how their GNX speakers compare to Eminence.
Rick
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Hmmm.......Streamliner has three preamp tubes and costs considerably more. Do those other two tubes make that much difference?
If you like to be able to dial up tubey overdrive at will, yes.
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If you like to be able to dial up tubey overdrive at will, yes.
The Shuttle has one tube, the Streamliner has three. Is three that big a difference over one?
I'm not sure that I was speaking clearly in my previous comment.
Rick
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That seems to be the G-B approach; give the user the chance to drive a preamp tube hard to achieve a tube-like sound. The G-B amps have a reputation of being very clean, but having the ability to add some overdriven sound more typical of tube amps.
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I've used a Peavey Data Bass for 20 years. ok, I know, Peavey, eccch. But they made a few great sounding bass amps, the Mark IV head is cool too.
Other than changing out the stock Black Widow for an Eminence Kapa 15C, (they blow the BWs sooner or later) it's never let me down. Big stages or small, very satisfied.
They are not perfect, though. A lot of guys might want more treble (although it's enough for me) and an extension speaker jack would've been nice. If you want to use the pre/post volumes for distortion, NO WAY...a Data Bass will NOT distort no matter what. Maybe on 10, but I wouldn't want to be in the room with it! And pretty heavy, thanks too particle board construction...
Pretty sure these are Class D amps, but I always found it to be very dynamic.
I'm curious to try the Peavey VB-3 Class D all tube 300 watt amp. It's a head, no combo version available to my knowledge. Never saw one in a store. Maybe they discontinued them already.
The stores near me only carry LCD stuff, no Orange, Genz-Benz, etc. One shop does carry some high end stuff, but that never worked for a rock sound IMO. Not even any PEAVEY dealers!
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I've used a Peavey Data Bass for 20 years. ok, I know, Peavey, eccch. But they made a few great sounding bass amps, the Mark IV head is cool too.
Peavey's all right. Trust me; I live in the cheap redneck capital of the world. Old Peavey TNT and TKO combos are as common around here as roadkill. Where I used to bitch about having to work on Peavey gear, now I just tell them to throw their Chinese or Vietnamese junk away. Most of that stuff is not worth fixing and they won't pay me for the time and equipment it would take for me to do it properly anyway. Even the manufacturers themselves only do refurbs, not repairs, swapping out section cards and most times not even QC checking to see if that fixed whatever the problem was.
NO WAY...a Data Bass will NOT distort no matter what. Maybe on 10, but I wouldn't want to be in the room with it! And pretty heavy, thanks too particle board construction...
Those amps are very reliable and were VERY expensive, especially for Peavey, when they came out. They never made a big dent in the market because of their prices, but I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about them at all outside of the BW speakers not being to handle them as you mentioned. I've never had to work on one either.
Pretty sure these are Class D amps, but I always found it to be very dynamic.
IRRC, they are. There's nothing inherently wrong with Class D; it's just that most amp makers do it on the cheap.
I'm curious to try the Peavey VB-3 Class D all tube 300 watt amp. It's a head, no combo version available to my knowledge. Never saw one in a store. Maybe they discontinued them already.
...most likely. I'd say the only player to take one home was Michaeal Anthony. The VB-2 was a killer amp and killer priced, and had to be discontinued, so its upmarket, much more expensive brother didn't have a prayer.