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I am shocked!

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uwe:
The "classic TV crime rape" - at night, in the park, between strangers that haven't even had fleeting contact before, the prowling villain, with lots of physical violence and a victim left behind with obviously savaged genitials, skin scrapes, torn clothes and beaten black and blue - is a rare thing except in times of war or genocide. And it's not the type of rape that has ever posed much of an issue for criminal prosecution, these cases are clear-cut if you can get your hands on the assailant/rapist. In most societies, there was never any sympathy for these types of rapists (except in times when the rule of law is done away with, eg civil war etc).

But the overwhelming part of rape scenarios aren't like that at all. They are between people who know each other, sometimes even relatives or spouses, they are placed in a setting and have a surrounding story, they are about "things getting out of hand", involve alcohol, withdrawn initial consent (or what was perceived as such), partnership conflicts etc. That is where it gets difficult and contentious.

Pilgrim:
As a father of two daughters, I'm very sympathetic with the cases in which there has been repeated pressure and overt behavior. Same goes for actual physical "manhandling" or attempted sexual contact. 

If it was an incident that happened 20 years ago, I think the evidence is stale and clock has run out. If the behavior persisted, there should be someone with a more recent history to come forward.

A single instance of inappropriate touch, or a single comment?  I don't think that in most cases those are harassment, I think they're bad judgment. I know that in such a case, either of my daughters would speak up and be clear about shutting it down.

When people fear for their jobs or the entire environment is toxic, that's more complex. I also think it will never end, and that human behavior is too variable to entirely prevent it.

Alanko:
Couldn't happen to a classier guy, and frankly I don't find it too big a leap of the imagination to think that he has bigger skeletons in the closet that may or may not come to light.

uwe:
What we all tend to underestimate is that Gene's "knees" - if your hand is forced on them - are a spiky affair:



Ouch!

And now for something completely different:

I have a daughter too and she made her first serious entrance into the world of the workplace (as opposed to making a few bucks as a waitress) about two years ago. It's where men meet women (over time it actually becomes THE place where the two - or three - sexes meet each other for longer periods of time), rub shoulders and are not always eye to eye as regards what still constitutes "rubbing shoulders" and what doesn't.

Her boss was very nurturing, furthered her career (nice pay check too), gave her an unusual amount of responsibility and then - you knew it was coming - got a crush on her. Except that she didn't. ("He's almost as old as you, dad, yikes!!!"  :mrgreen: )

And then there was this one after-work dinner which my daughter thought became a little too romantic, candlelight and all. After which she had a sleepless night (and lengthy tel cons with her parents) and then invited him for lunch the next day or day after to tell him that she was happy to learn from him and liked working with him, but that he had crossed a line that last evening that he should not cross again and that, thank you, no, she would definitely not want to be his mistress and that she though that his approach tainted everything*** he had done for her. And he accepted that.

*** I told her that was nonsense: "Men can appreciate your work wholeheartedly and still want to have sex with you, it's one of our few real multitasking talents."

And while she has meanwhile moved on to studying again and finishing her Master, they still see each other when he's in town - for well-lit business lunches I am told (and she received another job offer from him to help him in his new lobbying position - she declined, but felt flattered).

I don't think the guy did anything criminally inappropriate (and told my daughter at the time: "Welcome to the real world, unless you are butt-ugly as a woman, this will happen to you again and again, you will have to learn how to handle it gracefully."), but I was actually proud of her reaction. She became neither a victim nor did she go on a vendetta character-assassinating him.

Dave W:
Lots of good comments, guys.

Then there's the corruption of language we're seeing now. Whatever Al Franken did or didn't do, patting a woman's butt cheek isn't "sexual assault." Calling it that cheapens real sexual assault. And whatever Roy Moore may or may not have done, he's not a pedophile -- none of his alleged victims were pre-pubescent. That's an insult to real child victims.

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