The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: rahock on April 27, 2012, 01:08:07 PM
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I know this has been covered in the past ,but I think I was absent that day :-[.
I'm using a Shure 57 with the outside head removed on the drum .It's tough to get enough bottom and the volume is minimal also.
Any good recommendations and a price tag that won't choke me :o.
Rick
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What are you recording to? Even on the crappiest mics, a bass drum ought to have tons of volume. A 57 isn't my first choice for bass drum, but I wouldn't snub one either. Are you sure the mic cable/signal path is OK?
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Should have mentioned this is a live situation. I really don't need a lot of volume , but the 57 is not a real star in the low range ,so you turn it up to try and compensate for the lack of bottom with a little more volume. I even mic the kick down the basement just to make it a little easier on the drummer. My monitors are three of the 1st series JBL EONS with a 15" and horn at 165 watts each and not a whole lot of bottom but are OK for monitors. The mains are two JBL PRXs with 15" and horn at 1000 watts each and a pretty good bottom end. The Mackie board has a low end filter that I engage on the vocal and harp mics to keep unwanted breath noise /feedback, etc. down. I disengage it on the kick mic to get maximum bottom response . It's a pretty cool filter but it doesn't do much with the 57 which isn't picking up the bottom to begin with. Again, I don't think I need some mega buck mic,just a solid low end thumper.
Rick
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Do you get enough kick through the PA when you play commercial recordings through it?
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I'm an Audio-Technica fan. The Pro-63 ($89 list) and Pro-25ax ($199 list) look good for low end. Has anyone used them?
I'm betting not, because A-T is little known next to Shure and EV.
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I've never played any commercial recordings through the PA, but I can tell you for sure, the monitors are a bit lacking in the bottom end kick but the mains are pretty solid.
The A-T at $89 sounds promising, and you're right, they have never been mentioned in my quest. The Shures and everything else that's come up, start at around $200 and go way the hell up from there. If I've got to spend that kind of money I guess I will but I'd really like to get by on the cheap side and still get the job done. Like I said , I'm not recording, all I'm trying to do is make life a little easier on my drummer and get a nice clean punchy thump. I'm not micing any other drums at this point.
Thanks , and keep 'em coming.
Rick
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I use this one for recording, it is a large diaphragm cardioid, only $69 at musician's friend, has a lot of low end. I've been happy with it. Way more low end than a 57.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/cad-kbm412-bass-and-kick-drum-microphone/270774000000000
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Here it is in action
http://snd.sc/IkTfCH
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/ME/drum_kit.jpg)
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I have a DAP PL02 which is a copy of a Sure Beta 52 (for less than half of the price of the Shure).
I bought it to make sure my bass sound gets miced when I want it. More often than not sound engineers don't even try to mic the bass. They just take a DI without asking what you want. And when you ask for a microphone to take the bass signal they say they don't have any mics left. I hate that. So I bought the PL02. Works great.
When we have a gig in a bar and I don't need it or the bass, we use it for the bass drum. Works great.
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What is a DAP and where can I find one? Never heard of them.
Rick
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Can't find the website of the company itself
The full name is DAP Audio
I think this is an official dealer:
http://www.highlite.nl/
As far as I can see the PL-02 is not there any ore. They seem to have a new mic for the kick, the DM-55
And here's one in my home town, that has the PL-02:
http://dsttl.com/384-Dap-Audio-Microphones/2756-Instr.-Mic-PL02-Kick.html
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I can't seem to find anything DAP in the U.S. :sad:
Rick
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They may not be in the US.
I think Highlite may be the company itself. DAP-Audio's Twitter account (http://twitter.com/#!/DAP_audio) shows an URL of a site that links you right back to Highlite.
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I use this one for recording, it is a large diaphragm cardioid, only $69 at musician's friend, has a lot of low end. I've been happy with it. Way more low end than a 57.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/cad-kbm412-bass-and-kick-drum-microphone/270774000000000
That CAD has a low end down to 25hz, that's not bad for that kind of money ;D
Rick
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That CAD has a low end down to 25hz, that's not bad for that kind of money ;D
Rick
Yeah, if you solo that channel you get a thumm-thumm and not much more, that mic has a lot of low end and very little hi end, which is actually OK cuz you don't want a lot the other drum noise bleeding in there. The impact of the kick turns up in the overheads and any mic used for the snare bottoms.
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Yep, the .nl in highlite.nl means it's Dutch.
As in NetherLands
But I bet they don't have a problem with shipping overseas.
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Yeah, if you solo that channel you get a thumm-thumm and not much more, that mic has a lot of low end and very little hi end, which is actually OK cuz you don't want a lot the other drum noise bleeding in there. The impact of the kick turns up in the overheads and any mic used for the snare bottoms.
Ok, you've got my undivided attention with this CAD mic. The kick likely be the only mic'd drum, and I've got a Shure 58 for vocals behind the drums too. I'm just looking to give the kick a little boost and I'm hesitant to spend $200. We stick pretty much to the blues with a little jazzy stuff and straight ahead rock , so I'm thinking good thump with just enough attack to know it's there. Do you think this thing will satisfy my needs?
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did you check out the sound clips that carlo posted (link just above the picture of the kit). The bassy part of the kick drum is coming from the CAD mic. the attack is coming from the condensor near the snare bottom. For what you say you need, It seems this mic could do it, and like I said, it's not too much money to risk. Buy it, if you don't like, send it back
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Thanks ;D. Somehow I missed the sound clip and just looked at the picture :-[
Rick
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Yep, the .nl in highlite.nl means it's Dutch.
As in NetherLands
But I bet they don't have a problem with shipping overseas.
I understood that Highlite was a Dutch site, I meant there didn't seem to be an American distributor.
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D'oh, thanx Dave :mrgreen:
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I ordered the CAD. It's on back order and should be here in a couple of weeks. I don't normally take the cheap route but this time I did. This thing will only see limited action outside my basement, and again, it's job is just to provide a little boost. My biggest concern is solid low end and it looks like this thing has got lots of that. My Mackie board has got some features that should help it along too. My speakers are better in the vocal range but should have enough juice on the low end to get the job done. I just need more low end thump than what a Shure 57 can provide, they have a tedency to ring a little rather than thump . Thanks again. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Rick
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My CAD mic showed up on the front porch yesterday via UPS. Plugged it in,gave the EQ a tweek or two and it sounds great ;D. Compared to the Shure 57 there is a world of difference :o. This thing brings in the thunder. I was a little concerned that my 1st series EON monitors would not reproduce the bottom well enough but they sound great. I'm sure there are much better mics out there than my $69 CAD but this thing sounds great and will do everything I'm looking for. My drummer won't get a crack at it till tommorow night but I think he will be very pleased too. My New Mackie VLZ3 16 channel board has got a pretty good mic preamp(better than most) and whatever this mic is supposed to be lacking, it ain't. The PRX mains really do the kick sound nice too.
I was researching a couple of drummer forums and their opinions were all over the place. A $200 mic seemed to be the bare minimum with Shure 52 Beta and Audix leading the way. Others had bottom lines of $500 and some insisted that $2700 was the minimum you could get by with. A couple of people said ,if you can't get a good sound out of a Shure 57 you should buy a new PA ??? There were a few kind words for the cheap CAD but it was mainly a you get what you pay for world.
Anway, I'm happy and I think my drummer will be happy. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction guys ;D.
Rick
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OK, I just had to post a follow up on this CAD kick drum mic. My lead guitarist is a real perfectionist and he has been reading all the drum forums and he could settle for nothing less than the "best" in a kick drum mic. So he went out and bought an Audix D6 which he reffered to as "the best kick drum mic in the world, hands down". I kept all the PA settings the same and unplugged the CAD and plugged in the Audix. It had a lot of click(which I don't really like) , it was about the same in volume (maybe a little less) and the bottom end just dissappeared. Even when I boosted the low end on the board the Audix paled by comparison. I'm glad this is not a drummers forum because I don't think anyone would believe a word of what I'm saying :o. This CAD mic is definately not everyones cup of tea, based on what I've read, but in a side by side comparison and in my opinion, this $69 cheapo knocked the snot out of the $200 Audix ???. The Audix won in the click department but that's the only place , and again I don't like click , I like bottom. YMMV.
Rick
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Got this from ThunderBucker last week. Cut with that same CAD bass drum mic. One man band including the engineering. Definitely not a 'click' bass drum.
http://snd.sc/N6bhXo
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Yep, it was ThunderBucker who sold me, and I'd like to say thanks again ;D. I play mainly blues and I like the bottomy sound. If you want to bring on the thunder, this cheap little CAD mic is it. The complaints people had with them is that they were tough to EQ and they were too muddy. I had none of that with my PA. In fact , quite the opposite. I could get close to the Audix sound with a Shure 57 and a little tweeking but I didn't like it. If this were a drummers forum I can pretty much assure that I'd be getting called a liar and in general be getting my butt kicked from one end of town to the other.
I know what I like to hear and I got it for $69 ;D. The " best kick drum mic in the world , hands down" is back in the box it came in and on it's way back to where it came from. I'm sure it will make somebody else very happy :P.
Rick
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Modern drummers have been conditioned to want that godawful "click" on a bass drum by badly produced rock music. Most of them also don't know what good drums are supposed to sound like either.
I like a bass drum to sound like it does. My secret weapon for that is to use a small wired lavelier condensor mic. The small diapraghm does't overload from the air pressure and most old ones are omnidirectional, so you have a lot more options in placement and you can pick them up used very cheaply. You can pick up a used Sony ECM35 or 45 for $30, and as a bonus, they can be battery powered so you don't have even have phantom on the board. Their very small size is a liability in a live sitaution because their cord can get yanked and not even noticed, so I wouldn't take one on the road, but try one some time. Also, with some tape on the tie clip teeth to guard the finish, clip one inside the f-hole on an upright and be amazed.
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I thought I was pretty much alone on my lack of love for the click. That click is what the very overwhelming majority looks for. It's something I try to tweek out ??? With the CAD you don't have to. I dunno, maybe old dogs aren't meant for new tricks :P.
Rick
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I know what I like to hear and I got it for $69 ;D. The " best kick drum mic in the world , hands down" is back in the box it came in and on it's way back to where it came from. I'm sure it will make somebody else very
I know this is an old thread but just wanted to add to this for posterity.
The D6 is not universally accepted as the best kick mic ever (though it is in Metal and Hardcore circles; outside of that, it's a game of preference). It is actually a very coloured mic - your kick won't sound like your kick, but like a D6. The reason for the popularity is it's cutting power; what people above are calling 'click.' To get a bit of that (I agree the D6 is a bit too overboard with it, but if it's a busy mix, like2 or more guitards with Les Pauls etc) try adding some EQ boost to the kick track somewhere around 7K (give or take depending on drum size and tuning). Not as drastic as the emphasis in the D6, but just enough to get the kick poking through in case of a low end riot.
As for my recomendations:
Budget:
AKG D112: steer clear if you don't like the scooped sound (not as bad as some others) but it's a good mic if you're into it. I prefer it to the Shure Beta 52 or any other affordable dedicated kick mic that I have tried (never actually tried the CAD).
Apex 205 or 210 ribbon: Yes a ribbon. Seriously. If you want old school thump (and/or need to beef up a somewhat lean PA) this is a great choice. The trick to not blowing the mic (ribbons are sensitive) is to point the, in this case, top null (figure 8 pickup patter:; the mic picks up almost nothing from the sides/top/bottom) at the kick beater (I would only use this on a drum with no front/resonant head; also works great in concert toms/timbales and other traditionally single-headed and lower pitched drums). The 205 is also really good on vox and guitar and drum room or inbetween 2 toms (fig 8 remember 8) ). The 210 I have not used on anything other than drums (also good for room/toms, but I suspect, from what I know about this mic, that it might not be as good for vox and guitar; little more slurred and muddy; the 205 was the updated improved version, though the yoke mount is more solid on the 210). The 205 is also sold under other brands (some with better mouints) but the Apex one is usually the cheapest (at least here in the Great White North; usually can be had for 99 and you will find a use for it, even if not on drums).
Best (IMHO):
Beyer M88: yep, actually a vocal mic (used by Phil Collins), but also renowned for being awesome on kick (also due to Phil Collins). Bonus: very useful for other tasks as well (including bass and vox)
Elevctrovoice RE20: this is the hifi kick mic. Your drum will sound like itself. Again, very versatile mic (almost no proximity effect) great for bass, guitar and vox as well.
Heil PR30 or 40: similar to the EV RE 20 in that it is a large diaphram dynamic with little proximity effect and very good off axis rejection (very important if you have a solid front/resonant head) but a little differant. Kind of a modern reinterpretation. Also good for vox, bass and guitar. Heil also makes a dedicated kick mic; same capsule as a PR30/40 but more robust to take a beating on the road or in front of lead-footed drummers. The trade-off is significant loss of top end (and therefore versatility). It's called the PR48 but I haven't tried it. Might also be OK for bass but won't be good for vox (other than in an effecty sort of way); thinking about getting one to try. These are the most affordable in this category.
Vintage classics:
AKG D12: expensive and many are now falling apart (replacement diaphrams all but used up last I heard), but if there is a single no-limits (price and availability wise) mic that the clear majority of experienced recording engineers would ask for to put on kick, it's this one. ... OK, an argument might break out over this vs a Neuman U47 (and those overacheivers who'd say 'both'), but that's to pricey for schmoes like us to use on vox much less kick.
Personally (as a drummer and recording engineer) I have never been a fan of the Shure Beta 52.
Yep, it was ThunderBucker who sold me, and I'd like to say thanks again ;D. I play mainly blues and I like the bottomy sound. If you want to bring on the thunder, this cheap little CAD mic is it. The complaints people had with them is that they were tough to EQ and they were too muddy. I had none of that with my PA. In fact , quite the opposite. I could get close to the Audix sound with a Shure 57 and a little tweeking but I didn't like it. If this were a drummers forum I can pretty much assure that I'd be getting called a liar and in general be getting my butt kicked from one end of town to the other.
There is an important lesson here (besides ignoring the online hype machine... or at least taking it with a rather large-sized rock of salt). Sometimes (i.e. with a PA that is a bit shy with the bass as you mentioned earlier) a muddy mic (i.e. bass heavy) is exactly what you need to get that umph.
It's kinda like how one of the best recording bass sounds I ever stumbled across (I never would have thought; total accident) was my 65 EB3 (full mud) through a crappy solid state Peavey Bandit guitar practice amp (10 inch guitar speaker; open back) which is my bench test amp (because nothing sounds good through it and nobody wants to buy it, but it works fine). Useless live due to low volume and no headroom, but in retrospect totally complimentary and I should have thought of it years ago. .
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I really like that CAD mic ;D. If you had a PA that was running a buch of big subs it may be too bottomy and mixing it in could be a challenge , but with my set up it is great. A lot of reviews I read stated that it was tough to mix, but in my case it was simple. I have to keep it down a bit on the monitors or I start hearing the speakers crack (3 JBL EON 1st series 185 watts w/ 15" and horn) . They are not real strong on the lower end but my mains (2 JBL PRX 1000 watts w/ 15"and horn) bring on plenty of lows. The Audix was the one that was tough to mix. It didn't have the lows and it had slightly less power. When I used the CAD settings and plugged in the Audix in, there was no comparison . The CAD kicked the Audixs' butt in bottom and volume. I fooled around with the mic position a bit but it still couldn't catch up to the CAD. When I moved the CAD around in drum , it seemed to work well wherever I put it. Real easy to work with.I really don't know why these things aren't more popular ??? I guess it's just not the sound most drummers are looking for. I like it ;D.
Rick
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How well a particular kick mic works in any given situation is greatly dependant on the kick m, as well as the rest of the signal chain, yeah.
Also, the people buying and reviewing CADs are not the sort who always know what they're doing or using the best PA mixer (love it when I see reviews for good mic and they say it's poo having only used it through their Yorkville/Behringer); most pro engineers scoff at that brand. I'd give it a try, but I have other mics for kick that I am happy with.
If you ever do find that you want some more top end / attack / clarity to your kick try adding a mic on the beater side. Even a 57 will do for this; whatever is on hand. You'll need to flip the phase on it because it's facing the exact opposite direction of the internal (CAD) mic (a head is like a speaker; produces the same wave from the front and back, except 180 degrees out of phase).
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Thanks for the tip :). I'm pretty much an old school thud lover and that's why the CAD appeals to me so much. I also have a newer Mackie 16 channel board with a lot crispness capability if I need to enhance the upper end.
I couldn't agree more with your statement about people doing mic reviews who are using a POS PA. The chain is only as good as its' weakest link. I've always felt there's just no sense in trying to polish a turd. You might make it a little prettier but there comes a time you're going to realize it's still a turd ;).
Rick