The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: Freuds_Cat on November 03, 2011, 10:55:37 PM
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I have a mate called Jason who lives near me who is a cabinet maker and after a recent gig where I used my amp on another mates Ampeg fridge Jason and I (over a few beers) decided that it would be good fun to make one of these cabs. Another close friend is the manager of one of the larger hire shops here so access to cabs for measurements and design details is not a problem. The most obvious speakers to use would be the Eminence Legend B810.
Out of interest does anyone have any other suggestions for speakers?
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Have you considered Eminence Deltalites? They're neodymium. It will reduce the weight considerably and increase the efficiency.
When the speakers of one of my Eden cabs were blown, I tried a similar Eden cab that was equipped with Deltalites. It was an improvement compared to the other Eden cab that I have. Unfortunately I couldn't use them in my cab because of an impedance mismatch with my other cab and amp.
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I guess it will depend on weather or not they come in 32 Ohms. Thanks for the idea.
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Why 32?
With 8 speakers you have lots if possibilities to get your desired impedance for the entire cab.
The Deltalite II 2510 are 8 ohms individually.
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The original cabs have 32 ohm speakers in pairs in 4 sealed compartments in a series parallel arrangement.
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You could still keep the four sealed compartments but just wire them differently.
As four sets of two in series, (each will be 2x 8Ohm = 16Ohm), then put all four of those pairs in parallel, to make 16Ohm / 4 = 4 Ohm.
4 ohms total
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The question really is "which fridge?"? The original squareback with alnico CTS 10s, or the later angled back "bathtub with towel bar" and Eminence square mag ceramics? For me it will always be the former, probably with Ted Weber's bass 10s in the absence of original 'nicos.
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I just remember the hernia - tried one out with my DR103 for a while - just didn't gel with me...
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I just remember the hernia - tried one out with my DR103 for a while - just didn't gel with me...
Thou shalt not mix Hiwatt and Ampeg for bass. I think that was on one of the tablets Moses carried down with him
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Billy, I can only humbly admit my sins and digresions, but sometimes lessons have to be heard the hard way... ;)
Ended up with two open-backed Sound City 4 x 12 columns, used for the bigger gigs and now long dead, and the Marshall slope (still mine) was used for the smaller ones...
The ampeg just looked beautiful... 8)
... but the Hiwatt just did not match it and just looked wierd being so much wider... :rolleyes:
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Loved my blue grille SVT cabs with Coliseums. Here they are live in '77 at the Whisky A Go Go. ThunderBucker on guitar. Cabs are gone but I still have the hernias.
http://soundcloud.com/dadagoboi/billy-blows-away-wav
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The question really is "which fridge?"? The original squareback with alnico CTS 10s, or the later angled back "bathtub with towel bar" and Eminence square mag ceramics? For me it will always be the former, probably with Ted Weber's bass 10s in the absence of original 'nicos.
I have a couple of squareback cabs with original speakers but I've had the towel bar cabs too, I like both. I've seen different types of speakers in SVT cabs. The real old ones had brown baskets. I had a 6550 69-70 cab and head years ago but that is all I can recall. It was blue etched not printed, they did this because they were going to light the Ampeg name up like a few other Ampeg amps from a little earlier on, I guess they found this was dangerous as it ran on 115V, I'm not talking the plexiglass plate, some Ampeg amps light the name up in blue.
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Ken, I run an Ampeg SVP-Pro (with 5 Telefunkens) into Peavey DPC 1000 digital power amp so the match up is great. Recently we did a show with 4 bands on the bill and we used my amp with my mate Mick's 8 x 10. He normally runs a locally made tube head through it and said after the gig that that was the best sound he's had from that cab. Gotta admit it was a juicy sound.
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He normally runs a locally made tube head through it
Woogie?
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Mark you are such a local. :D Yep another one of Franks amazing creations.
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I have a mate called Jason who lives near me who is a cabinet maker and after a recent gig where I used my amp on another mates Ampeg fridge Jason and I (over a few beers) decided that it would be good fun to make one of these cabs. Another close friend is the manager of one of the larger hire shops here so access to cabs for measurements and design details is not a problem. The most obvious speakers to use would be the Eminence Legend B810.
Out of interest does anyone have any other suggestions for speakers?
Believe it or not, the cheap Jensen MOD 32 ohm guitar speakers are great, at least as good as much more expensive speakers deisgned for tuned cabinets and high s/s wattage. I have a friend who built a homemade SVT head and cab, and he used the MODS and loves them.
The question really is "which fridge?"? The original squareback with alnico CTS 10s, or the later angled back "bathtub with towel bar" and Eminence square mag ceramics? For me it will always be the former, probably with Ted Weber's bass 10s in the absence of original 'nicos.
I used to think that the ceramic speaker/tiltback cabinet happened at the same time, but my last-aquired SVT cab is a square-back that came stock with the Eminence ceramics. It sounds just like my others, but weighs about 50lbs more. I've never heard a tiltback SVT cabinet that sounds as good as the square one, regardless of vintage.
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Why 32?
With 8 speakers you have lots if possibilities to get your desired impedance for the entire cab.
The Deltalite II 2510 are 8 ohms individually.
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You could still keep the four sealed compartments but just wire them differently.
As four sets of two in series, (each will be 2x 8Ohm = 16Ohm), then put all four of those pairs in parallel, to make 16Ohm / 4 = 4 Ohm.
4 ohms total
32 ohms are required for all parallel connections, which in turn, are necessary for the speaker tuning/response and sound. Modern 32 ohm speakers for guitar still have this advantage over a series/parallel array of modern bass speakers at 8 or 4 ohms. There's more to the SVT cab's sound than sheer size and number of drivers.
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... Gotta admit it was a juicy sound.
Understood... I've still not got around to trying the Hiwatt with the 4x10 that comes with my MAG300... mind you, I don't intend to run the Hiwatt again until I do the re-cap... (okay... I know... something else I've not finished... story of my life, etc...) :P
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Believe it or not, the cheap Jensen MOD 32 ohm guitar speakers are great, at least as good as much more expensive speakers deisgned for tuned cabinets and high s/s wattage. I have a friend who built a homemade SVT head and cab, and he used the MODS and loves them.
I used to think that the ceramic speaker/tiltback cabinet happened at the same time, but my last-aquired SVT cab is a square-back that came stock with the Eminence ceramics. It sounds just like my others, but weighs about 50lbs more. I've never heard a tiltback SVT cabinet that sounds as good as the square one, regardless of vintage.
OK I will fess up, I really started this thread in anticipation of this exact response from PBG.
But I figured it would make a good topic of discussion too. ;) 8)
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Jensen MOD10-50-32 is a 50w whereas the Eminence B180 is 150w apparently, thoughts?
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Jensen MOD10-50-32 is a 50w whereas the Eminence B180 is 150w apparently, thoughts?
The original CTS alnicos have a fairly shallow cone, a good-sized voice coil (not sure of the exact dim) and are what we would consider to be low-wattage speakers these days.
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The original CTS alnicos have a fairly shallow cone, a good-sized voice coil (not sure of the exact dim) and are what we would consider to be low-wattage speakers these days.
When wired in parallel very capable of handling rated watts of the infinite baffle SVT cab...anybody heard of the 'sweet sixteen' concept of the '40s? I've always thought there was a connection with the SVT. 16-5 inch speakers.
http://www.roger-russell.com/columns/columns.htm#sweet
'Modern' example
http://www.rightchoicekids.com/Sweet%20Sixteen/Sweet%20Sixteen%20System.htm
The SVT cab was also the first production bass cab I can remember seeing with front mounted speakers which really increase the structural integrity of the cabinet. Now the standard way of mounting speakers.
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Jensen MOD10-50-32 is a 50w whereas the Eminence B180 is 150w apparently, thoughts?
Higher power handling in this case is a negative. A higher power rating means a larger voice coil, which will be heavier and thus, the speaker is less efficient. The power rating for those speakers is the thermal limit at which the voice coils burn and not a reflection on their excursion or low end. When paralleled, the cabinet has a 400 watt rating and all speakers share the same voltage and current, which is not the case with speakers hooked up in series in any form. You're far less likely to blow individual speakers that are all connected in parallel for this reason. The original CTS SVT speakers were somewhere around 70 watts each in power handling; the later Eminences are supposedly 100 watts.
Since they SVT cab has small air volume and is sealed, the lower rated resonance of the new Eminence is also immaterial. The SVT cab works on the same principle as Bag End subwoofers: the cabinet can accept low end boosts from EQ to have more bottom up to the actual thermal limit of the drivers. In a ported cabinet, the mechanical excursion limits would cause the driver damage at frequencies below cabinet tuning at far less wattage than the actual power handling of the driver.
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The early SVT cabs are rated at 240 watts, so I always assumed the speakers were 30 watts each. Is that correct? They went to 400 watts when MTI bought Ampeg around 1980.
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The 240 watt "rating" was a marketing gimmick from the get-go. That tidbit and most of the other info online about the SVT cab is just repeated myth.
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The SVT cab was also the first production bass cab I can remember seeing with front mounted speakers which really increase the structural integrity of the cabinet. Now the standard way of mounting speakers.
You might just be right about that - the SVT came out in '69, IIRC, and everybody was still using their Sunns, Marshall, Hiwatts, etc. - all rear loaded. The Acoustic 360 doesn't really count because the box wasn't sealed/infinite baffle, IMO.
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You might just be right about that - the SVT came out in '69, IIRC, and everybody was still using their Sunns, Marshall, Hiwatts, etc. - all rear loaded. The Acoustic 360 doesn't really count because the box wasn't sealed/infinite baffle, IMO.
The 3 full depth/width dividers that turn it into 4 separate enclosures also make it a strong S.O.B.
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The 240 watt "rating" was a marketing gimmick from the get-go. That tidbit and most of the other info online about the SVT cab is just repeated myth.
Hmmm... What do you assume is the reasoning to lie about the power handling of the cabs? So people buy two? That info is right out of a 1973 Ampeg catalog BTW, not online. So what IS the actual power handling of a 70s SVT cab? I built a 410 version (2 sealed chambers...) and loaded it with speakers out of a 70s Ampeg. Would like to know the real handling ability just for the hell of it.
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Hmmm... What do you assume is the reasoning to lie about the power handling of the cabs? So people buy two?
Precisely: Ampeg must have figured if someone could afford a full SVT stack, they should go for the upsell. Decades of players using SVT's and other big heads on a single cabinet with no problems holds a lot more water than 70's ad copy.
That info is right out of a 1973 Ampeg catalog BTW, not online.
I know. Unfortunately in the 70's, Ampeg got caught up in the BS wars that were common among musical instrument amp makers. Acoustic, Fender, Gibson, Sunn, and especially Peavey (along with a bunch of others), liked to 'fudge' things too.
So what IS the actual power handling of a 70s SVT cab? I built a 410 version (2 sealed chambers...) and loaded it with speakers out of a 70s Ampeg. Would like to know the real handling ability just for the hell of it.
No one has ever actually driven an SVT speaker to destruction to get its rating and published it, but Ted Weber was shooting for a 40 watter with his unfinished CTS clone before he died. In the early days of Talkbass, an Eminence rep checked the numbers on the drivers and that's where the 100 watt rating for them came from, but a few years later, that info was apparently lost by Eminence. I know I put over 400 watts of heavily compressed tube power into my oldest cab with all stock CTS speakers and it has never barked. I did some sweep response tests on mine years ago, but offhand, I can't find any of the raw data; I just remember being pleasantly surprised at quite a 'few nuggets of wisdom' in regards to the SVT cab being soundly proven false. You can probably safely consider your 4x10 at least a 200 watt cab as long as it is sealed.
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Jensen MOD10-50 voice coil is 32mm
(http://jensentone.com/images/mod10-50_big.jpg)
http://jensentone.com/mod10-50.php (http://jensentone.com/mod10-50.php)
Eminence B810 voice coil is 50.8mm
(http://ampandguitar.com/shop/catalog/images/Eminence-Legend_B810.jpg)
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Legend_B810.pdf (http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Legend_B810.pdf)
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Check out the weber BASS offerings here:
https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/
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Really interesting stuff. I've used a single, 70s 810 with my SVT head for years with no issues. The "you better buy 2" marketing hype totally makes sense.
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Really interesting stuff. I've used a single, 70s 810 with my SVT head for years with no issues. The "you better buy 2" marketing hype totally makes sense.
If an SVT is designed to put out maximum power at 2 ohms, theoretically you need 2 8-10 cabs to do that, no?
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I thought that only applied to solid state amps?
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I thought that only applied to solid state amps?
I knew I was forgetting something.
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Really interesting stuff. I've used a single, 70s 810 with my SVT head for years with no issues. The "you better buy 2" marketing hype totally makes sense.
I've got a single SVT 810 80s cab and a Skunkworks SVT head...actually the one that was loaned by Ampeg as the stage amp for Woodstock II....even still had mud on it when I got it.)
I've also got a pair of the current Orange 810 cabs (squareback; 4 Ohm cabs,) which I really like. Only problem is that you cannot run an Orange AD200B head down to 2 Ohms!! So, you cannot simply chain two 810 cabs to one head if you wanted to.
Fortunately, that's not the way I use them. I'd got the second one to use with a separate head for 8- and 12-string bass for overdriving/dirtying up the highs.
But I find myself usually only needing the 1x15 cabs for most gigs. Not a lot of call for the big rig.....but the cabs make nice coffee tables when put horizontally :)
I got crazy great deals of each of the 810 Orange cabs, so they were justified. One Orange dealer in a very small town could not sell the 810, so he traded me for my two Orange 410 cabs + $300 (cabs I really didn't like, with the horns and no attenuators.) The second 810 I got new for around 55 percent off list....too good to pass up.
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That's a Great deal!!! When I got my 200 watt Hiwatt last year, I had a squareback 8x10 SVT cab...It simply Killed.
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Thou shalt not mix Hiwatt and Ampeg for bass. I think that was on one of the tablets Moses carried down with him
That's bull. I've used my DR103 with the '94 810E for 3 years and it's the best combination I've tried with that head.
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Well, it sure as hell wouldn't be the first time some one didn't follow the instructions on those stone tablets.
Rick
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OK next question:
Opinions please on weather or not I should use Baltic Birch Plywood or will standard Pinus Radiata ply do the job just as well?
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You really need to spend to money on the good stuff. It's lighter and more rigid.
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I'd go with the baltic. I'm assuming it has more plys and fewer voids than the radiata which IIRC has many knots.
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Baltic! Anything that might have voids and you will end up with rattles that you will never locate. 3/4'' (actually 18mm) should be 13 ply.
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I've decided to hedge my bets as its my first attempt. I'm using pine but its not Radiata. Not exactly sure what type of pine (*edit:Hoop pine) it is but it has no knots that I can see. Its apparently the same stuff that they made most of the speaker cabs with in days gone by. My EV cabs are made with this stuff so I'm pretty comfortable with this decision. The Baltic birch is insanely priced here.
Found this thread over on the OZbass forum http://www.ozbassforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=897 (http://www.ozbassforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=897)
Worth a read even if its just for the EVH story about how he can hear the difference between cabs made of 6 or 7 ply and Eric Johnson can hear the difference between Duracell batteries and Energizers :sad:
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............... and Eric Johnson can hear the difference between Duracell batteries and Energizers :sad:
I remember here in Houston in the early 80s that EJ was the big upcoming "thang" and that he, supposedly, would not play on carpet - period. Many clubs nailed down plywood to book him - please..........
We can now buy Baltic Birch that is made in China here in Houston - for about $20 less on a 5x5 sheet. It looked a little off when I looked at it and I remembered how wonderful the real stuff was to work with - I bought the good stuff.
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Worth a read even if its just for the EVH story about how he can hear the difference between cabs made of 6 or 7 ply and Eric Johnson can hear the difference between Duracell batteries and Energizers :sad:
EVH? His reputation for tone tips and work partnership history should speak for itself. The only difference he heard was in the amount of his endorsement royalties.
As for Eric Johnson and batteries, that story has been exaggerated and changed. What he is talking about IS a real and scientifically measureable phenomena; in pedals, different types of batteries do make them sound different. It annoys the shit outta me that no one has apparently ever brought it to his attention. Carbon or "heavy duty" batteries have different voltage drop and current capacity than alkaline batteries and it does have a sonic impact in a guitar pedal. Danelectro marketed a carbon battery for many years under the 'vintage tone' moniker. You could buy them for $9 apiece as a music store... or you could pay $1 for the same thing without the brand at any store selling 'heavy duty' nine volts.
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Danelectro marketed a carbon battery for many years under the 'vintage tone' moniker. You could buy them for $9 apiece as a music store... or you could pay $1 for the same thing without the brand at any store selling 'heavy duty' nine volts.
I have two of those here that came with some Dano pedals that I had. Since they are "aged" now, they have a warmer, mellower - even more "vintage tone". I will let them go for $25 each if anyone is interested. ;D
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EVH? His reputation for tone tips and work partnership history should speak for itself. The only difference he heard was in the amount of his endorsement royalties.
:mrgreen:
But his twin sister knows her stuff. ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/davepix/humor/patti-smith-van-halen-01.jpg)
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Eddie was prettier pre-op. :mrgreen:
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Nope. Patti was always and continues to be prettier. Did he spend all his life under tanning spots? Talk about wrinkles.