The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Gibson Basses => Topic started by: sniper on October 13, 2008, 02:31:02 PM
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two years ago (well almost) i bought an EPI EBO. what i got was a dismal made in Malaysia thingy that the mechanics were terrible on, the finish was equaly terrible, the routing was all screwed up on and just generally looked cheap. i parted it out, sent some parts to make a bass for Matt (discussed elsewere), sold other parts and went about getting parts to make a bass and generally washed my hands of the whole deal.
well.................
i come to a situation that i needed a working bass before the others will get back from the builders so i bit my lip and got another EPI off the bay.
this one was made in China. it has a nice finish even thought i know it is poly, the fit of the parts is much better, it sounds better, the pup is not falling into the body as the last one was, the neck plate is a nice cast one with a pad and the case is really decent. not a flight case but not bad for what it is. i even got it with a Ken Mahlke bridge cover on it (courtesy of the original owner), not a mark on it and an extra set of strings for 200$.
are the newer China EPI repops that much better than the Malaysian repops and the quality of cheap EPI basses coming up or did i happen to just get one that has had a bit of owner revamps with the cover and possibly a rebuild to get rid of the horrors of being an import?
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I don't think it's your imagination. The Malaysian ones I saw didn't look very good to me. The bodies didn't even seem to be a mahogany substitute.
I doubt if the pickup has changed. If it sounds better to you, it could be for other reasons (different body wood?).
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i was thinking of putting that extra Gibby pup in it and still may. but i was wondering if i was having a serious flashback on the quality assessment of this one vs the Malaysian one.
lol
PS: it seems to weigh more vs the Malaysian one but that is just an impression.
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I can't say too much on the quality of the Malaysian one, but I can offer my two cents on Chinese made instruments: They can be of excellent quality. I think the parameters of the Epi are geared to a mass-produced cheap bass, but it is like anything, in that it can be pretty good if you get the fit and finish aspects down. Think Danelectro 50 years ago. With modern factories you can load a program from Gibson USA into a factory in China, and the end result will be equal or better, depending on the guys working there and how much they are getting paid. When the right palms get greased and the right funds are deposited, they are great. If they are working cheap you get crummy guitars and baby formula with petroleum byproducts.
I also suspect the Gibson knock-offs that are popping up are the overnight shift picking up a few extra yen for stuff that goes out the back door. Some of that is pretty good too.
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I wasn't aware that some were made in Malaysia. The only ones I've seen here in Oz are the Korean and Chinese ones. And I think Jap? a while back.
I have just had my luthier put a minibucker in a Black (Ebony (http://www.guitargear.net.au/discussion/Smileys/default/eyeroll.gif) ) Chinese EB-0. He did a great job and the bass is a lovely piece of work. (*edit. removed incorrect info) Mudbucker sounds different to the old Gibby ones I've tried but still big and fat.
Great neck on it.
I will try and get some pics tonight and post tomorrow
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Malaysia or Indonesia? I dunno which but I like this one a lot better anyway. Already got the Grovers on
lol, and the pup looks like it will fit too!
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The Malaysian Epis were from around 2000-2002. I remember seeing Malaysian EB-0s at MARS Music, and they went belly up in the fall of 2002. The EB-3s were still Korean. I remember how noticeable the difference was, side by side. Especially since the Malaysian EB-0 bodies had the same see-though cherry finish but the wood was obviously not the same as the mahogany-type EB-3 bodies.
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OK I hate to be wrong but I hate even more to spread incorrect info. :sad:
Here are some pics of the Chinese (Sae Jung Plant, March 2007) Epi EB-0 after modification to EB-3.
Check out the close ups of the wood in the wiring cavity......Plywood ???
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0336.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0333.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0337.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0345.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0332.jpg)
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nice pup job though.
what is the measurement from the 12th fret to the center of the bridge pup?
now i gotta go rip the covers off mine and look! i am expecting plywood anyways.
brb smoke time!
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I think that is just carvings from the routing machine. Plywood is - contrary to popular belief - not a cheap material to make (there is Italian designer furniture out there made of - visibly so - plywood and it is very expensive), it wouldn't make commercial sense for Epi to use it as long as there are cheaper solid woods around (there are) and the bass would weigh a ton and have a very dense sound if they did.
Kubicki necks were/are made of plywood. So were the necks of the old Framus basses and guitars. You might not like the dense sound characteristic of plywood, but it's not cheapo material. Hey, even TBird necks are nine-ply!
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Couldn't tell = it is too smooth inside the control cavity. Wish I hadn't left my camera with daughter when I moved!!!
Neck plate looks nothing like the Malaysian/Indonesian (?) plates though. looks like the Korean plates (black with raised chromed letters) except it says "China".
Serial starts with "UC601..."
Prolly stands for "Uwe's Chinese 601" 12 cylinder and Jet Daimler/Benz guitar, war aircraft engine and plywood plant from which he licsensed the Tego film bonding technique developed in WW2 to glue jets together (although we bombed the plant) which is why the WW2 German wood jets fell apart in the sky but he got a lot of money for the licensing when Gibby decided to hide pywood guitar bodies and make them look like Maho later in the manufacture of Epi guitars which is why he went to law school to write the contract to Gibby and the German developement of WW2 stealth fighters went askew! Aha!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162
Second and third paragraphs of design!! Laid that conspiracy open huh? AND thats the reason I can't tell if its pywood and the guitar is heavier is because of the German/Chinese collaboration of the glue!!!
Whew!!! I must be in a creative mood this morning or I have to start hitting the decaf and maybe talk to Dr. Jolly about my Prozac!
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OMG, no bass, I repeat no bass deserves a comparison to the dreaded Heinkel 162! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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I think that is just carvings from the routing machine. Plywood is - contrary to popular belief - not a cheap material to make (there is Italian designer furniture out there made of - visibly so - plywood and it is very expensive), it wouldn't make commercial sense for Epi to use it as long as there are cheaper solid woods around (there are) and the bass would weigh a ton and have a very dense sound if they did.
Kubicki necks were/are made of plywood. So were the necks of the old Framus basses and guitars. You might not like the dense sound characteristic of plywood, but it's not cheapo material. Hey, even TBird necks are nine-ply!
There's cheap plywood, there's high quality aircraft-grade plywood and a lot in between.
The Kubicki necks are made of a bunch of thin layers, but that doesn't make them plywood. Is the grain of each layer at a right angle to the adjacent layers? Are the layers bonded in the type of heat/high pressure process used in plywood making? I don't think so.
OTOH that Epi control cavity pic looks like plywood, not cutting tool marks.
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What's wrong with plywood?
Expensive does not always imply better. Alder as a tone wood isn't inferior to the more attractive ash. Danelectro's were constructed from two masonite boards on a cheap plywood frame, and they sounded good. At least good enough for Jimmy Page. And IMHO better than some fancy figured top Alembics that I have tried.
Some of the best jazz boxes have laminated tops and backs. It sounds brighter and more defined compared to carved tops. Again, cheap isn't always worse.
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What's wrong with plywood?
Expensive does not always imply better. Alder as a tone wood isn't inferior to the more attractive ash. Danelectro's were constructed from two masonite boards on a cheap plywood frame, and they sounded good. At least good enough for Jimmy Page. And IMHO better than some fancy figured top Alembics that I have tried.
Some of the best jazz boxes have laminated tops and backs. It sounds brighter and more defined compared to carved tops. Again, cheap isn't always worse.
Nothing's necessarily wrong with plywood, it's just been long associated with some cheap guitars and basses where it was used to cut costs.
If it sounds good, that's fine.
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I think the correct way to look at is to think if it is of crap quality it is plywood. If it is of good quality it is a multi-wood laminate. In the right Chinese factory, the seem to be using quality laminate construction.
Not to veer too far off, but apparently our Chinese friends are doing very accurate reproductions of German WWII uniforms and equipment. Perhaps a nice Col Klink Luftwaffe outfit to walk around your favorite ME262 in? I think China is fascinating.
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I think the correct way to look at is to think if it is of crap quality it is plywood. If it is of good quality it is a multi-wood laminate....
:mrgreen: Ain't that the truth!
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There's cheap plywood, there's high quality aircraft-grade plywood and a lot in between.
The Kubicki necks are made of a bunch of thin layers, but that doesn't make them plywood. Is the grain of each layer at a right angle to the adjacent layers? Are the layers bonded in the type of heat/high pressure process used in plywood making? I don't think so.
OTOH that Epi control cavity pic looks like plywood, not cutting tool marks.
Nothing's necessarily wrong with plywood, it's just been long associated with some cheap guitars and basses where it was used to cut costs.
If it sounds good, that's fine.
Yeah, I'm with you on all counts here Dave. The bass does sound good regardless, but it is definitely plywood. The grain of each layer is at a right angle to the adjacent layers. The feathering of each second layer is caused by the 90 o shift in the direction of the grain not by the routing bit.
I agree there is a big difference between laminated body and neck woods and plywood, apart from other things the direction of the grain from one layer to the next.
Doesn't matter, she cost bugger all, looks nice, plays well and overall sounds good. It is a long way from a late 60's EB-3 but then I dont have that expectation of her.
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nice pup job though.
what is the measurement from the 12th fret to the center of the bridge pup?
318mm
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318mm
thanks for the measurement and i'm considering the same mod.
point being, i was pleasently suprised and i like my little Epi.
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My main issue with this isn't really the plywood. Its the fact that on the Epi website it tells you that you are getting a Mahogany body but you are not.
(http://www.epiphone.com/images/107_04.jpg)
Even the EB-0 bass package declares the body Basswood.
(http://www.epiphone.com/images/60_04.jpg)
Maybe its plywood made from Basswood? :rolleyes:
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i agree with you whole heartedly, but i would realy like to KNOW what i've got. bets are on basswood when i find out.
couldn't be any worse than an old kalamazoo caliber but even that wasn't too bad a bass from what i've read as i have never played one; it is serving its purpose though and doing it rather inexpensively.
;D ;D
From the Warmoth site:
"Basswood (Tilia americana):
This is a lighter weight wood normally producing Strat® bodies under 4 lbs. The color is white, but often has nasty green mineral streaks in it. This is a closed-grain wood, but it can absorb a lot of finish. This is not a good wood for clear finishes since there is little figure. It is quite soft, and does not take abuse well. Sound-wise, Basswood has a nice, growley, warm tone with good mids. A favorite tone wood for shredders in the 80s since its defined sound cuts through a mix well."
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My main issue with this isn't really the plywood. Its the fact that on the Epi website it tells you that you are getting a Mahogany body but you are not.
Even the EB-0 bass package declares the body Basswood.
Maybe its plywood made from Basswood? :rolleyes:
There is mahogany plywood, although typical hardwood plywood doesn't have hardwood core layers. I've never heard of basswood plywood.
I haven't seen any Asian factories ever claiming to use genuine mahogany (Swietenia species) anyway. I know some of the upper end instruments have used khaya (African mahogany) which is a good wood and actually in the same family. From everything I've read, the lower priced guitars sold as mahogany are probably lauan or nato.
I agree that Epi shoudl be clear about what they're selling.
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which is a good wood and actually in the same family.
Actually they are totally different species of trees with a similar type of wood-
African mahogany
Of particular note, when specifying mahogany, caveat emptor. While the Latin botanical names for various wood species are fixed, common names are often changed for species imported into the U.S. under the guise of marketing. One species may be named mahogany based on a similar appearance, although no genetic relationship exists. African Mahogany, from the family Khaya ivorensis or K.anthotheca, is primarily found in the Ivory Coast, Ghana, and Nigeria. Sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum) is also marketed as African Mahogany and grows in the countries of Cameroon and Zaire
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I dunno - I'm not where I can look at it, but the EB-0 I'm selling has the clear cherry finish and it sure looks one piece to me, as does the body on the EB-3 I just bought. Both are well assembled and the EB-0 required minimal adjustment to get it set up for my taste.
I have a Kay KB-2 SG-clone that's definitely laminate, and it sounds like a bass. The fretless I custom-painted turned out to have a laminate body, but the sound is great as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not convinced that different woods make much difference in sound, nor that laminate is a reason to avoid a bass. Others may disgree on both counts.
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Actually they are totally different species of trees with a similar type of wood-
African mahogany
Of particular note, when specifying mahogany, caveat emptor. While the Latin botanical names for various wood species are fixed, common names are often changed for species imported into the U.S. under the guise of marketing. One species may be named mahogany based on a similar appearance, although no genetic relationship exists. African Mahogany, from the family Khaya ivorensis or K.anthotheca, is primarily found in the Ivory Coast, Ghana, and Nigeria. Sapele (Entandrophragma cylindricum) is also marketed as African Mahogany and grows in the countries of Cameroon and Zaire
Both the swietenia species and khaya are in the Meliaceae family. Different genuses (genera?) and species, of course. But they are "all in the family."
I've never heard of sapele being marketed as anything but sapele.
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simply judging from my uncovered control cavity , i don't think mine is ply as it is really smooth on the routed sides (wish i had my camera!!!) but i doubt it is Mahogany. i was thinking of Basswood or its Chinese/Asian equivilant.
however, the first EPI EBO (the Malaysian/Indonesian one) i had was "layered" on the sides of the neck routing much like the pictures of the cavity sides posted earlier. i will take some snaps then i get moved back to Springfield in Feb. i loaned my camera to daughter to take pics of Jaden and he took his first steps last week.
almost time to order high heeled laceup boots from Seattle and spandex from Germany so i can start his bass lessons.
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(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0336.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0333.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0337.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0345.jpg)
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t253/Freuds_cat/Epiphone%20EB-X/RIMG0332.jpg)
Those pics clearly explains why they skipped the see through cherry finish on the Chinese EB-0. On my Korean made (Dec '97)
you can clearly see the wood grain which looks like Mahogany but probably is something else.
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Not specifically Gibophone related but a lot of the Indonesian made instruments coming into Oz claim to be made of Agathis. Some descriptions say it consists of 21 different types of tree ranging from Malaysia down through Indonesia, Australia to New Zealand (Called Kauri). Strangely I have read a few different descriptions where it is describes as a Mahogany type wood and others claiming it to be Basswood ???
Interestingly the 3 or 4 Indonesian varieties all get listed as endangered.
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From what I've read, the "agathis" in those lower end guitars is actually a common Asian pine species. NTTAWWT.
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a little research has told me that it is some times considered a commercial grade "Mahogany" but yes it is definately a Gymnosperm or conifer family: pine, cedar, fir, hemlock, spruce etc with a cone (think pine cone) seed. the actual name "Mahogany" would be eroneous when used with this tree and is a marketing import ploy as Mahogany is an Angiosperm or considered a flowering plant whereas a Gymnosperm is not. Gymnosperms also generally have to have a symbiotiuc relationship with ground funguses to process nutrient absorbtion.
the wood is a straight grained, pale yellow non oderous wood that is accepted in that part of the world as a musical wood with the better wood for instruments being old growth forests. (duh) it is considered a regrowth potential wood that can be used in wood plantations and is generally used for cabinet and furniture making with the moisture content being close to 15% average for air dried wood.
spruce is considered an excellent tonewood so IMHO being a "pine" might not regulate this Agathis to lower grade instruments.
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we don't want to go into rosewoods...
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The Kauri tree as mentioned is regarded as an Agathis wood. In NZ I have heard it referred to as Kauri Pine. So all of whats been mentioned so far fits with that idea.
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FWIW, back in the late 90s, I bought one of the first Epi EB-0s - the ones made in Korea. I still have it, and it's a solid, great playing bass, if a little uninspiring in the pickup dept. The newer ones are a far cry from it in almost every respect. I'm toying with putting a Model One in it (got a couple of Gibsons with REAL muddies already), but the black finish bugs me a little. I'd REALLY like to find one of the original M1s with the brushed aluminum finish.
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Some people revere the early pine Teles. I've seen a number of "pinecaster" projects at the TDPRI over the past few years.
One of the coolest basses I've ever played was a one-off masterbuilt pine bodied '55 Precision made by Mark Kendrick of Fender Custom Shop.
A tonewood is whatever sounds good. Some of our present tonewoods got to be that way because the manufacturer was looking for a cheaper alternative. For example, Gibson first bought korina hoping it would be a cheaper alternative to mahogany.
So I wouldn't dismiss agathis just because it's cheap. I'd have to hear enough agathis guitars or basses and let my ears decide.
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Hehe, nah dont get me wrong, the Agathis stuff I've heard so far has impressed me. I have a Yamaha Pacifica guitar which is natural body in Agathis and a half scale Agathis P bass body on a 25" neck which sounds amazingly big with help from some EMG Active pups.