More on the Gibson raid

[the mojo hobo]

The affidavit says more than once that India permits exports of veneer less than 6mm thick.  That's what Gibson claimed they were receiving and was described incorrectly in the shipping documents.

I played my Carvin at practice tonight. I noticed the Ebony fretboard was thinner than the maple top veneer

[the mojo hobo]

The Lacey Act isn't costing any jobs, no matter what Henry says, and it had broad bipartisan support. That doesn't make it good or bad, of course, but if another country prohibits exporting a wood, I don't see how it's a problem to tell a US company that they can't disregard the other country's law.

On the other hand, is it right for the US government to enforce laws of foreign countries that they themselves don't enforce?

(and I can't believe that Gibson is the only company purchasing wood from these vendors)

[Dave W]

They're enforcing a US law, not an Indian law.

Henry claims it was just a paperwork error that was corrected. Okay, paperwork errors do happen. Now compare that to what the affidavit alleges. Do you think it's possible that Gibson accidentally declared to Indian authorities that they were exporting finished fingerboards, while accidentally declaring to US Customs that it was veneer, and accidentally using a tariff code for veneer, and accidentally not disclosing that they were the ultimate consignee? That's a real stretch. When you wait until after you're caught to provide the correct information, it looks like a subterfuge.

[999]

Another interesting article on it: http://motherjones.com/environment/2011/09/tea-party-gibson-guitar-wood -- perhaps inappropriately political for this forum but specifically interesting was the DOJ/DOI letter https://motherjones.com/files/doj_-_doi_response_re_gibson_guitar.pdf as it addresses the issue of SWAT teams used in the  raid (I wondered if that had been hype as the photos I saw didn't look that way - baseball caps, beige shirts, military cargo pants, and pistols - I didn't see larger weapons - perhaps I missed them?)
"Law enforcement agents are required to carry side arms during the execution of warrants for their own protection and generally wear clothing and badges identifying themselves as law enforcement. SWAT teams and similar tactical units were not used in the execution of the warrants at Gibson's facilities."

Also interesting in that letter, for those with anxiety about personal instruments: "Finally, people who unknowingly possess a musical instrument or other object containing wood that was illegally taken, possessed, transported or sold in violation of law and who, in the exercise of due care, would not have known it was illegal, do not have criminal exposure. The Federal Government focuses its enforcement efforts on those who are removing protected species from the wild and making a profit by trafficking in them."

[uwe]

I've read some affidavits in my life and will continue to do so, but Mr Rayfield's is certainly one of the more thorough ones. It doesn't read like baloney and as a litigator you have a whiff for baloney.

You wonder why a company goes to lenghths like that. I like my rosewood or ebony fretboard as much as the next man, but it is not the decisive factor why I buy a bass. If legal sources for this wood dry up, Gibson is not forced to shenanigans like that. There are other legal and even exotic woods out there like wenge that look the part which can be used for a fretboard. Gibson have proven that, I have that Smartwood LP Bass with that rarely used Brazilian swirled fretboard wood - name escapes me, something starting with a c I believe - and it looks and sounds great, better than ebony actually. And there must still be enough old stock rosewood and ebony lying around in the world for the Custom Shop using it for accurate reissues. And if that means 500 Dollars more, then the Custom Shop with its affluent clientle won't go out of business. If you buy an LP for 4.000 bucks you are not going to not buy it for 4.500. So I fail to see any commercial necessity for this type of duping the authorities. It's plain bad management as in this day and age it is only a matter of time before you get caught and the repercussions are severe. For the next few years Gibson can advertise all they want about smartwood (which, ironically, they never offered as a continuous regular line) and renewable woods and there will always be someone making a snide remark about these raids/investigations.

If Gibson started building its fretboards from, say, birch wood, today it would not keep me from buying any bass model they bring out.

What's worse than plain silly? Plain silly AND being caught.


Uwe

[Psycho Bass Guy]

At this point, a federal seizure auction of Gibson sounds like it would be an improvement.

[uwe]

I find this here most telling:

"In 2008, Gibson, Martin, and Taylor officials [Guitar companies] toured Madagascar and observed the illegal logging operations. Martin and Taylor promptly stopped using Madagascar woods; Gibson did not. Internal Gibson emails, as quoted by the US Attorney's office appear to indicate that Gibson knew that it was buying illegal woods.  Federal officials seized that wood and as per the 2008 Lacey Act amendments, need not charge Gibson with a crime. Gibson must prove the legality of the wood to secure its return. Gibson has been unable to do that. After the November 2009 raid, Gibson stopped buying wood from Madagascar."

There is a difference between responsible management and poor one. And Martin and Taylor have not gone out of business either.

[uwe]

LOL - here in remote Germany I had no idea that Henry J has become the Joan of Arc of the Tea Party! How bitter for him that a German left-leaning liberal of all people must be the only person on earth who buys blindly all his bass products unseen and in unflinching faith. I am to Gibson what Red China is to US Government Bonds!!!   One day, I will conquer Nashville





and call it Neu-Berlin! (Exit with mad villain laugh!)


I now want my Boston Tea Party commemorative bass - tea stained please and with faux Native American symbols!!! And that cool "No taxation without representation!" logo ...

[Psycho Bass Guy]

Mother Jones was being more than a little hyperbolic; they're the left's equivalent to the Wall Street Journal and Faux News.

One day, I will conquer Nashville and call it Neu-Berlin!

If you'll get rid of all the fake country-pop crap, I'll take point.

[Blackbird]

So it's safe to assume that the Sixxbird on order, errrrr.....now backorder, won't be here anytime soon

[Dave W]

Fox News and Mother Jones are unofficial party organs, that's why I don't want to discuss them. They're going to do what they always do, regardless of Henry. What we should be looking at is that Henry is now trying to portray himself as a political victim when his history of political donations makes it clear that he was not particularly associated with the Republican Party or conservative politics. He's being dishonest about his political history to try to draw attention away from the real reason for the raid.

[Dave W]

So it's safe to assume that the Sixxbird on order, errrrr.....now backorder, won't be here anytime soon

You have to wonder if Gibson will survive this. No doubt the name will continue, but the present ownership may be toast if there are indictments. Not just because of this, remember that there was already evidence of financial problems.

[uwe]

Henry is a survivor and the brand is still strong, enough aging baby boomers out there buying the stuff with their pensions and "youngsters" - my son for one - have a positive image of the Gibson heritage too. My bet is on Henry - nothing a little fine-paying cannot do - surviving unless in a purge-like move and with strong financiers behind them some of Gibson's younger management buys him out. Remember how he and his business partners paid only five million bucks for floundering Gibson in the mid eighties - I'd think he'd do fine with his investment if he pulled out today.

I don't think that Henry J. is evil incarnate for showing a cavalier attitude towards some "Hindu wood". But in today's times of compliance and corporate governance it is grossly and sorely outdated and testimony to lousy, hardly visionary and sustainable "good management". And it's never too late, they can still roll out the "we have seen the errors of our ways"-program now, hundreds of PR advisors will happily counsel them in this, you just have to take the advice, Henry!

And I don't care whether he beds Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck or both at the same time (I'd prefer Palin alone, like here we wouldn't have to discuss environmental issues such as baby seal culling politics at all, I could just see myself "drill, baby, drill!" all night, well, half the night given my age ...  ), laws apply to every company, Republican or Democratic CEO or not and it distorts competiton when Taylor and Martin abide and Gibson with its large acoustic guitar turnout does not. The assumption that a fly shit on the wall company like Gibson (in terms of turnover and size of workforce) would mean anything one way or another to even the most vigilant Democratic administration is preposterous though.  And certainly a brand name such as Gibson with a "friendly product" such as electric guitars would have been a bad choice to seek out for punishment.

[Barklessdog]

It appears they were down illegal importing, too many cover ups it appears. Gibson should get what they deserve, politics aside. They have been number one idiots with lawsuits, they should get what they dish out for a change.

[Barklessdog]

Fox News and Mother Jones are unofficial party organs, that's why I don't want to discuss them.

But professional wrestling is real.