Some Ric Porn for you: 4003S/5 and 4003S/8

[uwe]

I'd do it the other way around, E and A regular and D and G with octaves strings. And the whole thing short sclae so that there is less tension on the strings.

[Highlander]

Another variant, oh Lord of the Strings... that would give much more "treble" for chording work... anyone tried this before...?

[dminer]

Hello Uwe,
   I'm mainly a lurker but your Rick s8 neck solution prompted me to post and ask a few questions. I also have a Fireglow 4003s8...mine is from 1987 and nearly mint... and I've had similar problems with there being too much tension on the neck for it to play comfortably! When I string it as a 4 banger the neck is straight and true and the action low...with 8 strings the action is pretty high and you can see a visible bow in the neck. I have used the lowest tension strings that I could find (TI's for the 4 main strings and some low tension piccolo strings for the octaves (I can't remember the brand but I got them from just strings.)
  When I bought the bass years ago I knew little about ricks and didn't realise at the time that someone had already very skillfully lowered the entire bridge by routing the body out in the same fashion as your luthier has done. I have removed the truss rods (they we're very hard to get out and I really had to kind of tap them out very slowly...they were a little easier to re-install but still pretty hard compared to other rick rods that I've pulled and re-installed and the action remained the same.
   Your luthier's use of 2 stronger Ibanez rods has me wondering if this solution might get my bass back to playable status. Do you have any info on where your luthier got the rods or which style of Ibanez bass they came from? And, of course if any one else reading this post has any suggestion I'm all ears. I have thought of just plugging the peg holes in the headstock and reshaping it into a 4003s but, that would be a last resort...I'd probably sell it first.
 Thanks, David

[uwe]

Hi David, so I'm not the only one then with an eight-string Rickenwarper! That feels good, I was beginning to wonder ...

My Luthier didn't even say whether the new truss rods where from an Ibanez bass and from a guitar. All I know that it was an upmarket model, because the truss rod had that Ibanez metric nut (similar to a Ric nut, but slightly larger) they only use on their more expensive models while the cheaper stuff just has the standard allen wrench socket. But I'll find out for you - will send my luthier an email and revert ...

Regards

Uwe

[Dave W]

The Rick truss rods (post about 1984) work the same way as conventional Gibson and Fender rods. But they're smaller diameter. Gibson and Fender use 3/16" while Rick uses two 5/32" rods.

I'm no metallurgist, but I don't think a different metal composition would make any significant difference in the bending resistance. Instead, I suspect the rods used by Uwe's luthier are larger diameter than the Ricks, and that he enlarged the routs to fit them.

[dminer]

Uwe...thanks for your speedy reply. Yes, I've heard of at least a few of us 8 stringers with this problem, and after re-reading your post it's clear that the fretboard was removed, so, as Dave pointed out, there's a good chance that your new rods are a larger diameter size. If that's the case I'm not really sure what I can do short of major luthier surgery. Anyway, let me know what your bass doctor says. Thanks, David

[Dave W]

Whoops, I edited above to note that the Rick rods are 5/32" diameter, not 5/16"

Believe it or not, increasing the diameter from 5/32" to 3/16" will increase the cross section area by 44% (well, you'll believe it if you remember your geometry lessons).

[uwe]

Of course the Ibanez rods are thicker than the Ric rods, it has nothing to do with the metal, didn't I make that clear? Sorry then. But while the Ibanez rods were/are thicker, they stll fit the Ric routes, no further routing was necessary, the Ric routes have ample room.

The fretboard came off not for truss rod channel routing but for honing the warped neck in a way that it would counteract string pull rather than support it. It was that badly warped, a banana even without tension.

[exiledarchangel]

It was that badly warped, a banana even without tension.

So are we allowed to call your 8-string Bananabacker?

[Dave W]

Of course the Ibanez rods are thicker than the Ric rods, it has nothing to do with the metal, didn't I make that clear? Sorry then. But while the Ibanez rods were/are thicker, they stll fit the Ric routes, no further routing was necessary, the Ric routes have ample room.

The fretboard came off not for truss rod channel routing but for honing the warped neck in a way that it would counteract string pull rather than support it. It was that badly warped, a banana even without tension.

Yes, you did say they were thicker, but that was on page one. You expect us to go back and read your every word?  

Since the existing rods can be replaced without removing the fretboard, and since the slightly larger rods will fit in the existing channels, it's likely the larger rods could be fit in without major surgery. If the neck isn't a banana, that might do the trick without having to plane the neck. Obviously this wouldn't have solved all your problems, but maybe it could in David's case.

[dminer]

Thanks guys!
    So, it does sound like there's a chance that thicker rods might do the trick...I'm wondering if I could just grab some rods at the big box store (lowes/depot) and tap the ends. I know they sell different diameter steel rods at about 36" but I'm not really sure as to the variety of thickness...I might check it out tomorrow.
   Is there any reason that a steel rod from depot wouldn't work (except that the diameter might be too big/small?) Also, as I stated earlier the Rick rods were pretty hard to get out and re-install, any ideas as to why that might be? They didn't appear to be badly bent if my memory serves me correct (it's been a couple of years since I pulled the rods.)

[Dave W]

The problem with rod at the store is that it's allthread. Gibson and Fender rods are solid except at the ends, like the Stew-Mac traditional truss rod kit. This obviously would be stronger than allthread. You use a die to thread the ends.

I don't know if Ricks are that way too, I would guess so. Ilan?

I also don't know for sure if 3/16" solid rod would fit, I would guess so based on what Uwe said. I think I'd test first with a dowel or pin before getting rods cut to length and threaded at the ends.

There's a thread somewhere in the archives of the Rick Resource Forum about removing and replacing truss rods. Maybe Ilan knows where it is.

[dminer]

Dave, thanks for the info. Our Lowes and Depot both have solid steel rods in varying diameters. I know for a fact because I just used 12 of them on some leaded glass windows that I made and installed...the homeowners wanted the "old" method of rebars on their reproduction windows which involves soldering 4" pieces of copper wire to the intersecting lead joints and then twisting the copper wire around the solid rebar to give the windows extra strength and stability. and yea, I always get tap and die mixed up. Modern rick rods are solid and round. Thanks and I'll see what diameters are available tomorrow. dm

[ilan]

As dminer wrote, post-85 Ric rods are solid and round. I suspect that using allthread rods could damage the "packing" inside the channels, under the fretboard.

From Uwe's description it's hard to tell what did the trick, the new thicker rods or re-gluing the fretboard. Sometimes removing the fretboard isn't necessary, heat treatment makes the old glue melt a little and the fretboard can slide a little bit, then the neck is cooled in a back-bow and the glue hardens again. There's also a method of refretting with thicker tang fret wire. This also creates a back-bow.

Removing the modern rods isn't difficult. What I do is remove the TRC and pickguard, then unscrew the hex nuts, tap the rods gently into the neck until the acorn nuts slide out at the body end. Remove acorn nuts and tap back into the neck. Pull the threaded ends from the headstock (protect the finish with a soft cloth first). To install new rods go through the same steps in reverse order.

[Dave W]

In Uwe's case, I think planing the neck did the trick. His neck was probably unusually bad. The larger rods are obviously a help now.