Author Topic: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale  (Read 1047 times)

lowend1

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2017, 07:00:30 AM »
I hardly think that being a critic of their music is sour grapes. I certainly don't begrudge their success or care that they have fans.

Simmons is being blasted on FB for his intent to trademark a gesture that others used earlier. That's missing the point. Wouldn't matter if he were the first to use it. The problem is an attempted abuse of trademark law to suppress expression by others. IMHO just another reason why trademark should be strictly limited to brand names and logos.

That wasn't directed at you, Dave, - or even the criticism of Gene's business acumen, which is certainly a crucial element in their level of success and has been a favorite target of their critics. Since the 1970s, there have been plenty of times when I have taken issue with things they have said, done or recorded. If you were a fan back then, odds are you had to endure the slings and arrows of friends who were fans of "serious" rock bands (as if there were such things) lambasting Kiss' abilities as musicians. Those grapes are not only sour, but are so old that they could be classified as raisins. There have been plenty of bands with fair-to-middling skills that have become successful, but Kiss were an easy target because they were very visual and took advantage of their own marketing potential. Peter Frampton had similar issues and he was a far more accomplished player - actually, Humble Pie was an influence on Kiss in the early days. Kiss' music can be critiqued, their work ethic can not.
With regard to the devil horns thing - I'm not even sure that story had broken when I posted, but since you raised it...
While it may seem ridiculous to us to try and trademark a hand gesture that has been around for centuries, is use has become a mainstay of the heavy metal community, and as such has been used as an element in the creation of commercial product - including logos - that appear on t-shirts and albums. If you're making money from it, it isn't simply expression. In that context, it is literally an untapped revenue stream. I would venture a guess that it this type of use that would be targeted - not somebody holding up their hand. Gene first used it in concert and on album covers around 1976-77. Ronnie James Dio began using it in concert around the same time and stated in interviews that he would be surprised if he was the first to use it. There were sporadic, almost incidental uses prior to that, but nobody laid claim to it as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one at the Outpost), but that kind of makes it fair game, no?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 07:52:19 AM by lowend1 »
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gearHed289

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2017, 07:39:03 AM »
Just the skunk stripe.

So, still not one piece.  ;)

Kiss' music can be critiqued, their work ethic can not.

That's for damn sure! They worked their asses off for the first 5 years and had balls of steel to do what they did in the mid-70s.

lowend1

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2017, 07:47:49 AM »
You are correct, and I can't believe I forgot about the skunk stripe, because it is plainly visible in the Alive! booklet.
However, this is the "Mendoza" bass, which eventually made its way back to Gene for authentication and a sig.

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Basvarken

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2017, 08:29:26 AM »
Maybe Gene can get a copyright on black fur helmets too?

lowend1

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2017, 09:30:50 AM »
Maybe Gene can get a copyright on black fur helmets too?
If there's money in it...🤔
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Rob

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2017, 10:14:50 AM »
Maybe Gene can get a copyright on black fur helmets too?

No kidding!!!

Dave W

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2017, 10:53:48 AM »
That wasn't directed at you, Dave, - or even the criticism of Gene's business acumen, which is certainly a crucial element in their level of success and has been a favorite target of their critics. Since the 1970s, there have been plenty of times when I have taken issue with things they have said, done or recorded. If you were a fan back then, odds are you had to endure the slings and arrows of friends who were fans of "serious" rock bands (as if there were such things) lambasting Kiss' abilities as musicians. Those grapes are not only sour, but are so old that they could be classified as raisins. There have been plenty of bands with fair-to-middling skills that have become successful, but Kiss were an easy target because they were very visual and took advantage of their own marketing potential. Peter Frampton had similar issues and he was a far more accomplished player - actually, Humble Pie was an influence on Kiss in the early days. Kiss' music can be critiqued, their work ethic can not.
With regard to the devil horns thing - I'm not even sure that story had broken when I posted, but since you raised it...
While it may seem ridiculous to us to try and trademark a hand gesture that has been around for centuries, is use has become a mainstay of the heavy metal community, and as such has been used as an element in the creation of commercial product - including logos - that appear on t-shirts and albums. If you're making money from it, it isn't simply expression. In that context, it is literally an untapped revenue stream. I would venture a guess that it this type of use that would be targeted - not somebody holding up their hand. Gene first used it in concert and on album covers around 1976-77. Ronnie James Dio began using it in concert around the same time and stated in interviews that he would be surprised if he was the first to use it. There were sporadic, almost incidental uses prior to that, but nobody laid claim to it as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one at the Outpost), but that kind of makes it fair game, no?

I know it wasn't directed at me.

From what I've read on FB, Dio used it before Simmons and a couple of others used it well before Dio. Makes no difference to me if Simmons was the first and only one to ever use it. A trademark on a hand gesture would be a government-granted monopoly on speech. It should never be allowed under any circumstance. Revenue stream? Commercial product? Not at the expense of someone's right of expression. Ever.

I was already in my late 20s when Kiss came along. Never liked bands that were in it for show, their music was inoffensive, not worth the effort for me to like or dislike. But in the past dozen or so years, I've come to despise Gene Simmons and everything he stands for.

Dave W

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2017, 11:08:29 AM »
John Lennon, 1966


Basvarken

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2017, 12:11:43 PM »

OldManC

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2017, 12:27:34 PM »

From what I've read on FB, Dio used it before Simmons and a couple of others used it well before Dio.

This is the thing. Gene and RJD always did two different gestures (and John's was another thing as well). The fact that most discussions are conflating them all doesn't help.

I'm not sure I even buy that Gene is serious in his trademark application, but I do see that, once again, the band and Gene particularly are a topic of conversation across pop culture and among people who were never even fans. That's been Gene's real shtick since at least the late 70s.

And what about Texas?

http://mentalfloss.com/article/24475/give-me-sign-stories-behind-5-hand-gestures

4stringer77

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2017, 12:29:04 PM »
John Lennon, 1966



I'd wager John's intent was the I love you sign since his thumb is out and that's more of what he's associated with. Shocking to see Paul promoting white power!  :o
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lowend1

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2017, 12:39:18 PM »
My Italian half is well acquainted with malocchio - the Evil Eye - which is incurred or protected against as described by Ronnie. Note that with malocchio, the thumb is not extended as per Gene's trademark drawing, so metalheads everywhere should be able to sleep at night. Where Gene may have a problem is with the fact that his gesture is already ASL (sign language) for "I love you". John Lennon, as usual, has it all ass-backwards with his palm facing inward, which loosely translates in sign language to "George, will you stop playing that damn sitar".
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lowend1

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2017, 12:48:46 PM »
https://m.
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gearHed289

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2017, 02:43:45 PM »
Someone on facebook posted this, apparently from 1969.


66Atlas

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Re: One of Gene's Grabbers for sale
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2017, 05:11:57 AM »


Sounds dangerous...