The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bill's Shop: Projects, Mods & Repairs => Topic started by: tore00 on August 13, 2015, 04:04:21 AM
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Anybody got a tracing or measurements of a 20/20 bass body? I'm thinking of a project based on that bass. Very strange that this bass intrigues me. Probably is my past as a rower that returns.
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If you tell me what dimensions you need, I'll measure them up for you. Haven't got any drawings I'm afraid.
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I need the width at the base and the distance from the top of the horn to the base. Then thickness and neck heel size.
I will also appreciate two side views where there are cavities of which I cannot understand the use. Also location of strap lock on horn is evident but the other one is unclear. Where is battery located?
Thanks
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A lot of your questions are answered on Jules Haffegee's most excellent website Flyguitars.
http://www.flyguitars.com/gibson/bass/1987Gibson2020.php
I will measure the 20/20 for you this weekend.
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Many thanks. I cannot open the wiring page of flying guitar either with my PC and with ipad. I spotted that pic with the side arm open. I understand that is useful to play the bass seated. I was thinking that there was a battery cavity, but I was wrong. And I see that the strap lock is located in the bottom cavity and also there is no cavity for battery. I suppose that the strap pins are Schaller safety lock and that the battery is below the pick guard.
Flyinguitar also mentions that the body is maple. Somewhere I read that it is ash to justify the weight.
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Jule's web page shows it best. Each pickup has it's own circuit in it. A 9 volt battery is just wired in series with them.
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/2020pickupback.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/2020pickupback.jpg.html)
Here are a few neck shots showing the truss rod nut & the nut that came with my new neck. The newer Sperzel tuners look like they might fit, even though they look a bit different now.
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/2020Neck3_zpsfc15c1f1.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/2020Neck3_zpsfc15c1f1.jpg.html)(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/NewNeck_zps202d7c36.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/NewNeck_zps202d7c36.jpg.html)(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/20-20Cat.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/20-20Cat.jpg.html)
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Found it ....
(http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US4186923-1.png)
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Hardly surprising it took you so long to find it as I thought you'd forgotten what one of those looked like... :mrgreen:
(ps, not a fan but couldn't resist)
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Upper horn to bottom: 485 mm
Lower horn to bottom: 320 mm
Width at bottom: 250 mm
Body thickness: 45 mm
The cavity for the battery is straight behind the bridge.
It has a separate cover which looks like it's part of the entire pickguard. But you only need to need to take out two screws. Not the entire pickguard.
It has normal strap pins. No Straplocks.
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Hardly surprising it took you so long to find it as I thought you'd forgotten what one of those looked like... :mrgreen:
(ps, not a fan but couldn't resist)
Well played :-)
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Thanks for the measurements. The body is quite thick. I would have bet that was no more than 35 mm.
I started drawing it. I have a question about tuning pegs: I checked the Sperzel catalogue but I did not find any bass tuner similar to the ones of 20/20. I wonder if the new Bass Locking Tuners will fit
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I'm not 100% sure, but it does look like they fit the same way. They still have the little locating pin that keeps them from turning. I was unaware that I would have to drill the small hole above each tuner hole to accommodate that feature.
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/Crack1_zpsm3tf9p0s.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/Crack1_zpsm3tf9p0s.jpg.html)
http://www.sperzel.com/Catalog/4Catalogue.pdf
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Thanks for the info. I am now in the process finding out parts. Regarding the wiring looking to various sites (for some reason I am unable to see the schematics in Jules site) I understood that the bass is wired like a Fender Jazz bass, two volumes -one tone, with battery in series with both pickups on the ground side. I see that a capacitor is used for tone control and pots are 25 kOhm for nothing volumes and tone.
Do you have any info on the size of the capacitor?
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Thanks for the info. I am now in the process finding out parts. Regarding the wiring looking to various sites (for some reason I am unable to see the schematics in Jules site) I understood that the bass is wired like a Fender Jazz bass, two volumes -one tone, with battery in series with both pickups on the ground side. I see that a capacitor is used for tone control and pots are 25 kOhm for nothing volumes and tone.
Do you have any info on the size of the capacitor?
I can't see the wiring page on Jules' site either. He's registered here as EvilLordJuju -- you might send him a private message and see if he can correct the page or send you a schematic directly.
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Just today a 20/20 neck landed to my house with two pickups, one Gibson and one EMG. I have Sperzel tuners ans Schaller bridge. I traced the body on paper and have a wood blank ready to be routed.
As soon as I have time I will cut the template and then the body.
I still cannot understand why the 20/20 intrigues me. I think that it is related to my past rower experience or I am surrendering to Dark Side of the Force.
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Still no response from Jules on that missing wiring page.
At least you can get going now.
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Here the first shots of the parts that I have already: the new Sperzel Tuner fits perfectly and the drawing on paper is ready.
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/20_20/WP_20150908_007.jpg)
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/20_20/WP_20150908_004.jpg)
Now starting to look for the other parts
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One more question for you owners of a 20/20: do the strings pass through the nut or there is a removable upper part to remove when re-stringing?
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The strings do run through the nut. The Nut is 1.465 long, .375 wide & about .390 high. The holes look to be on center of the nut on the tuner side, with the exception of the "G" string. That one is about .150 from the bottom of the nut to center. The holes are not drilled straight through, they are drilled at an angle upward as they go towards the neck. The center screw is a set screw that adjusts the height. The two end screws adjust side to side height & stabilize the nut.
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/Nut1_zpsohrrgwlz.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/Nut1_zpsohrrgwlz.jpg.html)
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/Nut2_zpszvk0trmv.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/Nut2_zpszvk0trmv.jpg.html)
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/Nut3_zpsh68nfpl5.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/Nut3_zpsh68nfpl5.jpg.html)
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The holes would need to go downward toward the tuners just like the slots in a conventional nut angle slightly downward toward the tuners.
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What a complex and massive nut. It is about 1 cm high and thick (sorry guys I am not proficient in reasoning in inches) with angled holes. After many broken drills I decided to do in a simpler way, using a 8 mm high steel piece and using a file for string slots. I was able to drill the two screw holes and I will use a thinner plate above the strings. Pictures will follow. I think that I could make something similar to the original in wood but I am unsure if it would work fine.
About the body may I ask to an owner the width of the horn (perpendicular to the neck)?
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Fascinating stuff ... I find the head rather interesting ... :popcorn:
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Hi Salvatore,
I'll take a shot at giving it to you in inches. I convert from metric to inches almost daily, but rarely the other way around!
Everything on this bass is tapered, nothing is straight to reference dimensions from so I chose frets to reference from.
The 18th fret is close to where the large radius is tangent to the flat surface on the inside of the horn.
The 15th fret is close to where the other end of the flat surface is tangent to the radius on the end of the horn.
At the 18th fret, the cutaway is .850, the horn is 1.680. (The neck is 2.155, reference.)
At the 15th fret, the cutaway is .930, the horn is 1.475. (The neck is 2.080, reference.)
It might have been intended to be the only straight surface on the bass, hard to be certain.......... Hope this helps.
George
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/1987Gibson2020Bass.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/1987Gibson2020Bass.jpg.html)
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A question about wiring 20/20 pickup. It has red, black and braid. I suppose that black is connected to +9V, red is the output ang braid is grounded. Could you confirm or correct? Also I found thet EMG HB works also with +18 V voltage. Any idea if 20/20 can do? I suppose that such low voltage cannot damage it but better be safe
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This guy sold a NOS loaded pickguard on eBay, same guy I bought the NOS Neck from. I wonder if he still has the photos he posted? They would show you everything you need.....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-20-20-Ned-Steinberger-Bass-Loaded-pickguard-pickups-control-harness-/201182941569?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2ed7701181
P.S..........
As things turned out, I saved the photos that I believe went with this eBay listing for reference....... Sorry it took this long to remember...... :o
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/_57c_zpsk9cjwum4.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/_57c_zpsk9cjwum4.jpg.html)
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/_57e_zpsqgd8tlk5.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/_57e_zpsqgd8tlk5.jpg.html)
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/f_zpsjeumuzgn.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/f_zpsjeumuzgn.jpg.html)
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af119/Grog_03/_57b_zpshqqtyuec.jpg) (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/Grog_03/media/_57b_zpshqqtyuec.jpg.html)
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Thanks a lot. Pictures clarify everything. The project is going well. I am now assembling before finishing.
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Good. Hope you have everything you need to go forward since Jules still hasn't responded. From what I can gather from his FB page, he seems to be on extended tour in eastern Europe with the Long John Laundry Band.
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I have finally assembled the 20/20 copy and I am having an issue with pickups. While the EMG HB alone plays well and the Gibson plays a little weaker and bright, but I think this is normal due to the location close to bridge, when I blend the two together the tone is weak and nasal. If they were passive I would understood that they were in phase opposition and just changed the polarity. What should I do with such active pickups? I would not risk of damage anything. Any help is appreciated.
Here are two shots of the body and the nut
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/20_20/WP_20151009_004.jpg)
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/20_20/WP_20151009_003.jpg)
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Looks like the project is going well. I don't know how much it would mater, but the 20/20 pickup is actually a neck pickup. The only way you can tell is the screw patterns (middle screw) are opposite between the neck & the bridge pickups.
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I suspect that my guess that the pickups are out of phase is correct. This site http://www.steinbergerworld.com/emg-hb.htm (http://www.steinbergerworld.com/emg-hb.htm) mentions
"Note - Pickup pairs MUST be in phase! The later HB was designed with "normal" phase. EMG no longer makes any stock bass humbucking pickups out of phase. If you need to replace a broken or damaged SS with an HB, you'll need to have a phase inverter wired to one of the pickups. It's a much simpler solution and probably cheaper than ordering a custom out-of-phase pickup. Most people usually replace both pickups at the same time, so few have ever encountered this problem in the field."
I think that I need a phase inverter.
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I suspect that my guess that the pickups are out of phase is correct. This site http://www.steinbergerworld.com/emg-hb.htm (http://www.steinbergerworld.com/emg-hb.htm) mentions
"Note - Pickup pairs MUST be in phase! The later HB was designed with "normal" phase. EMG no longer makes any stock bass humbucking pickups out of phase. If you need to replace a broken or damaged SS with an HB, you'll need to have a phase inverter wired to one of the pickups. It's a much simpler solution and probably cheaper than ordering a custom out-of-phase pickup. Most people usually replace both pickups at the same time, so few have ever encountered this problem in the field."
I think that I need a phase inverter.
I didn't know EMG ever made an out of phase EMG HB, but unless you know that yours is, I wouldn't just assume that's the case.
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My suspect is that actually the HB is standard one, while the Gibson 20/20 pickup is out of phase. Unfortunately I have no idea about how to verify my guess
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My suspect is that actually the HB is standard one, while the Gibson 20/20 pickup is out of phase. Unfortunately I have no idea about how to verify my guess
Couldn't you temporarily wire a passive pickup in place of one, then the other? That way you ought to be able to figure out if either one is internally wired out of phase.
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I just ordered a Emg Phase inverter that I should receive in 10 days from US. Now it is time to finish the bass. The body received sealer and is now drying before sanding.
Any guess of a close match to Luna silver? I was thinking to RAL 7034 but suggestions are welcome.
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Luna Silver seemed to be a metallic paint, like a silver version of the paint used on the Les Paul Gold top. Not Much comes up when you Google it. On the other hand, if you Google Ferrari Red, more info pops up................
http://colors.findthedata.com/l/726/Ferrari-Red
If you don't mind this color, it might be more readily available...........
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How close is Luna Silver to Silver Mist Poly? That's supposedly equivalent to Fender's Inca Silver, which is Dupont Lucite 2436L
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I do not think that it if Inca Silver. I found that RAL 7034 is a very close match. The main difference that I see is that the original Luna Silver has some small quantity of metallic inside, but it is very difficult to guess what and how much.
I think that I will go for a traditional acrylic with a polished transparent finish to not complicate the project. I prefer to maintain the original finish on the neck, and actually I prefer Luna Silver to Ferrari Red, even if I am Italian.
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This weekend I installed an EMG Pi2, a phase switch. I reversed the phase of the Gibson bridge pickup and Boom, the sound improved a lot. Now she plays great! I left the option to have out-of-phase pick-ups just in case. It's a great bass and I really like how the EMG neck pickup plays.
Now I ordered decal paper for the logo on the horn. Next weekend I should complete painting in Ral 7034 color. It is actually a little darker that real Silver Luna, but I hope that after clearing and polishing will appear brighter.
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I'm happy that the phase switch worked out for you.
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You're going into unchartered territory........... Going where no man has ever gone before!! I'm glade everything is coming together so well...........
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You're going into unchartered territory........... Going where no man has ever gone before!! I'm glade everything is coming together so well...........
And I included another fine addition: I added an extra 9v battery to supply at 18V the EMG pickup. It plays more authoritative. I still wonder how good active EMG HB plays. I really like that sound at the point that I am thinking to hide one under the chrome of some spare Thunderbird covers I have
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And I included another fine addition: I added an extra 9v battery to supply at 18V the EMG pickup. It plays more authoritative. I still wonder how good active EMG HB plays. I really like that sound at the point that I am thinking to hide one under the chrome of some spare Thunderbird covers I have
You can buy a separate EMG preamp for use with any passive (or active) pickups. On this page, the ones with Control in the name will work http://www.emgpickups.com/accessories/bass-accessories.html
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There's an original 20/20 pickup for sale on Ebay right now!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Bass-Pickup-20-20-RD-Artist-Humbucker-1980s-Steinberger-/221941059883?hash=item33acb7d12b:g:V68AAOSwZVhWR5So
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Looks like our own Baz Cooper...........
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Yes, it's Baz. See his post in the For Sale section http://bassoutpost.com/index.php?topic=9820.0
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Just purchased the pickup from Baz. Now I'm thinking what to do with the three pickup, since I have already purchased a EMG HB.
I was just observing that between the two pickups there is enough room for an additional pickup. A three pickup 20/20 with phase switch?
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I have an emg hb somewhere. I remember it having an nice extended bass response. Maybe good for the front pickup if you decide to have 3 ?
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Thanks but I have already 3. I started with a 20/20 neck and just one original 20/20 pickup. Then I purchased an EMG HB pickup since I was not thinking to find easily another 20/20 pickup. Then I found that the 20/20 and EMG HB are out of phase and got a EMG PI-2 phase switch (they are active and cannot simply invert the red with black).
Now I just purchased one more 20/20 pickup from ebay and discussing what to do.
But you are right EMG HB has a great extended bass response. Just in case PM me with details if you want to sell
......I know, my wife will kill me if she hears of it so please do not cc her (luckily she is not in the forum) !
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Finally I had the time to assemble what I have collected. I finally decided to install 3 pickups, the two 20/20, sold by Baz and George and the additional EMG with phase switch.
I did all soldering, checked twice and a surprise came out. The two 20/20 pickups are not in phase! It looks that the EMG and the Baz pickups are in phase while the other one is not. I suspect that at a certain point they changed the polarity of the magnets or the winding. I can definitely ear how volume drops and sound gets thin when I increase volume of one of the two 20/20 pickups with the EMG at 0 volume. I wonder if any other surpise come out.
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That's too bad. Could it be solved by changing where your phase inverter is placed in the circuit?
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Luckily I solved immediately just putting the phase inverter on the 20/20 pickup at the bridge. I realized that the Baz pickup and the EMG are in phase. Then I was sure that the one by Grog was out of phase and inverted it. Actually both 20/20 pickups are neck ones. I understood from the screws but they play similar alone apart from the phase shift.
However now she plays thunderous as I expected and can't wait to play with my new southern rock band. They are used to my Jazz and Precision basses, but I bet that they will like the 20/20 after first note. I promise to send some pictures as soon I will manage to do.
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That's odd that both pickups are the same & the one I had was out of phase....................???? I bought the three of them on eBay as spares & never tested or tried them. I think they might have been NOS. Rejects because they might have been wired backwards? Mystery! Waiting anxiously for photos!
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Luckily I solved immediately just putting the phase inverter on the 20/20 pickup at the bridge. I realized that the Baz pickup and the EMG are in phase. Then I was sure that the one by Grog was out of phase and inverted it. Actually both 20/20 pickups are neck ones. I understood from the screws but they play similar alone apart from the phase shift.
However now she plays thunderous as I expected and can't wait to play with my new southern rock band. They are used to my Jazz and Precision basses, but I bet that they will like the 20/20 after first note. I promise to send some pictures as soon I will manage to do.
Whatever the reason, I'm glad the solution was simple enough.
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and here are the pictures of the (probably) only clone of 20/20 in this world. I definitely like her. Three pickups in parallel and a phase switch on the bridge one. It is not a pro job but I love my home made basses
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/20_20/SANY0003.jpg)
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/20_20/SANY0015.jpg)
And credits:
Grog for neck, pickups (Gibson and EMG), measurements and advice on electronics and nut
Baz for second Gibson Pickup and for your continuous need to make new basses
Basvarken for measurements and advice on another pickup availability and your so coooool look with a 20/20
Uwe for Ze Collection and all posts on Gibson bass including 20/20. You increased a lot my passion for Gibson basses
You all on the Outpost for all countless advices and the fun during these years
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Body looks good. :thumbsup:
But that pickguard needs some work! :popcorn:
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I know but I am
lazy stressed by job and the bass plays just fine! And I bet that nobody of my usual crowd will ever complain with pickguard ;D
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A project for a rainy day...
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The 20/20 is such an odd beast.
I like it!
8)
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Nice job! It's a 20/20 Custom! (being three pickups & all!) I would also bet, that it is the only 20/20 clone in existence. Congratulations!
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I like it!
I know but I am lazy stressed by job and the bass plays just fine! And I bet that nobody of my usual crowd will ever comply with pickguard ;D
They won't.
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After rehearsing the 20/20 hybrid of my own, I realized that the EMG pickup located at the center is almost useless. When i play together with the two Gibson pickups it disappears. Since my ears have never been particularly keen, I asked and got confirmation that was not only my guess. In the next few days I will disconnect the EMG HB and trace a new pickguard.
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Have you checked if it is a phase related problem? Maybe the pickup is fine, just not wired right.
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Yes, I did. And I discovered that the two Gibson pickups (that are actually are both neck ones so should be identical) are out of phase. If I play as they are they play very weak. I installed a EMG phase inverter and got a thunderous sound
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Strange things are taking shape after few hours in the basement
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/20180217_164159.jpg)
Very rough now. I just scored an EMG HB on ebay that is the perfect candidate for a Ferrari Red.
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Finding another neck seems less likely than winning the lotto........... But you never know! I still have a hard time believing that the one I picked up was unearthed........... And with the same serial number with the exception of the last digit! (which I stamped). It just goes to show you that if you watch long enough, anything is likely to show up.
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Actually I am looking for a 24 frets and reshaping the headstock. Any idea about how to make the writing on the horn? I used a decal but was not fully satisfied
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Weren't the transfers that Gibson used for the headstocks that didn't have MOP inlays very thin?
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Aren't all waterslide decal transfers very thin?
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The problem with thin decals is that they are almost transparent if printed in yellow and almost indistinguishable
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It shouldn't be yellow, but gold.
Rothko & Frost can make it for you.
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Now looking for the neck for my second 20/20 clone. The 24 frets candidates are quite few. There are some at ebay
https://www.ebay.it/itm/24-Fret-4-String-Rosewood-Maple-Electric-Bass-Neck-Replacement-Satin-Finish/302431429553?hash=item466a5163b1:g:jPMAAOSwr6RZpL8b
https://www.ebay.it/itm/24-fret-rosewood-fingerboard-2-2-tuner-holes-4-string-maple-bass-neck/273056570320?hash=item3f93709bd0:g:4EEAAOSwrDBZasjM
https://www.ebay.it/itm/New-24-fret-rosewood-fingerboard-2-2-tuner-holes-4-string-maple-bass-neck/323025745615?hash=item4b35d5b6cf:g:aD8AAOSwlyJaF5K9
None of them is perfect: truss rod is at headstock, holes mst be filled before shaping headstock, first has no dots and last fret looks strange and has angled headstock.
I could think of buying a 20 or 21 frets paddled neck but it looks to me not in line with overall concept of 20/20
What do you suggest to me? I think that best option is the first that I listed, Warwick style, to which I can fill the holes and reshape the headstock. Suggestions are welcome
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I scored a nice Fernandes neck on ebay at a cheap price and ordered a bridge and pickguard blank. Everything in on route for my second 20/20 clone. I know that there is at least one who owns two 20/20s but I bet that there is not another that has two clones :mrgreen:
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:mrgreen:
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The neck arrived safely from Japan. It is very nice with no wear at all. It looks a little bowed downward but the trussrod is functional and string tension will probably put it in place.
Now I have to fill the tuners holes. What do you suggest? I was thinking to put some plugs the same size of the holes with wood glue, before cutting the 20/20 shaped headstock and paint it Ferrari Red back and black front
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/s-l1600%201.jpg) (http://s772.photobucket.com/user/tore00/media/s-l1600%201.jpg.html)
(http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/yy5/tore00/s-l1600.jpg) (http://s772.photobucket.com/user/tore00/media/s-l1600.jpg.html)
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Plugs are fine but don't cut them from end grain. You want the grain running the same direction as the headstock.
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I hadn't noticed this tread for a while. It sounds like you are really going to town on the 20/20 Reisue/Reissue! How close was the headstock thickness? That has got to be the oddest neck ever bolted to a bass. I guess that's what makes it unique.
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I've started working again on the 20/20 clone. After a long stop due to pain in my right arm, that I preserved to play, today I completed routing. I had no luck with pickguard, for some reason I cut always strange. Hope in the next days to assemble all the stuff and take some notes from it. Pictures to come soon
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Yesterday I wired and had a nasty and strange surprise: everything was working fine but neck pickup was picking only G and D :o. Bridge one was ok. Both were measuring 55 K Ohm, but I know that there is a preamp and not wire only.
EMG HB is actually a split coil under a humbucker cover, but it looks that the coils are wired in parallel and one is dead
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Lift a conductor and check each coil?
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It looks sealed with some kind of epoxy resin. I will try hoping to see something
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I had one that was damaged (used purely for filling the hole in my RD where another damaged pup lived) sent from NZ and if I can remember it was potted with something solid...
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It should be easy to tell the difference between wax and epoxy potting. If it's epoxy, forget trying to look at the innards.