The Last Bass Outpost
Main Forums => The Bass Zone => Topic started by: Dave W on March 19, 2013, 04:43:20 PM
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Some of you know the story of Paul Tutmarc's Audiovox Model 736, the first known fretted electric bass guitar. If not, here's the story (http://tutmarc.tripod.com/paultutmarc.html) from his son Bud, who passed away several years ago.
One unanswered question is the scale length. Tutmarc's catalog says the overall length is 42" but not what the scale length is. I found that a Talkbass member actually got to see one and take it apart (see here (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/tutmarc-audiovox-model-736-where-they-857878/#post12268821)) and his notes say the scale length was approximately 30" but he doesn't offer anything exact.
Now look at his full length photo.
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/moonshinegtrs/IMG_0034copy.jpg)
This is pretty much a straight on front view. But I printed it and measured the nut to 12th fret distance and the overall distance, then multiplied that ratio by 42 inches, and I come up with 17" which would make it a 34" scale bass. Also seems logical since the bridge is almost at the very end of the body and the headstock isn't that big.
Anyone else care to print, measure and offer an opinion?
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I looked at the other pix...judging by the size of that pot, thumb and cable it looks like SS to me. Plus there's only room for 16 frets on that neck.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/ME/IMG_0066copy_zpsfece55e7.jpg)
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/ME/IMG_0030copy_zps10384c56.jpg)
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The pot looks roughly quarter sized but if you could determine the diameter of the router bits used for the wiring channel you could measure out everything else.
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Looks maybe even shorter than 30 inch to me. Look at the distances between the frets.
I'll make a comparison in photoshop to check
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It think it is 30 inch if I compare it to the BaCH Telecaster, which is 30 inch
(http://enkoo.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/3/7/13376708/2284328_orig.jpg)
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It think it is 30 inch if I compare it to the BaCH Telecaster, which is 30 inch
(http://enkoo.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/3/7/13376708/2284328_orig.jpg)
Proportionally, it's the same as ANY instrument, twice as long from the nut to the 12th fret. Overlay a 34 inch scale bass, matching up bridge to 12th fret and results will be the same. Plus the big tuner ears will be about equal in size. Dave may be correct.
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Printed as a pdf on virtual printer, spread lengthwise on my monitor, I measure the bass as 16 3/4" from end to end, and 6 13/16" from the inside of the nut to the 12th fret. 6.8125/16.75=17.08"
The headstock has a slight angle, but I don't think it's enough of an angle to throw off the overall measurements by enough to make this a short scale -- unless I'm measuring wrong.
It's very compact, that may make it look like it's short scale. Based on the pics and my measurements, I don't think so. As always, I could be wrong.
The Audivox catalog has exact measurements of several of the other items, so I doubt the 42" was just a guess. Bud says it was 42". And Bud made a bass in the late 1940s that was almost identical.
Both Paul and Bud's basses were sold out of Seattle. If they were 34" scale, and Leo Fender saw one of Bud's basses on the west coast in the late 40s, it might explain how Leo came up with the Precision scale length. I know the official story is that they tried out several scale lengths, but sometimes official stories are myths.
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I missed that 42" dimension, I think I was blinded by the stunning craftsmanship ;D
Yeah, long scale.
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Dave's math is correct.
And WOW. New pics of the world's first bass guitar. Thanks for sharing.
I now see where Rickenbacker got the idea to use a forstner bit for the channel route ;-)
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Look what I found: an early Audiovox lap steel (http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUDIOVOX-7-string-lap-steel-Electric-/200902560033?pt=Guitar&hash=item2ec6b9c921) with lots of pics.
Now that's a real piece of history!
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[heathan] still just a slab of wood [/heathan] :o
I mostly use my SG that way... ;)
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Some features of the walnut Audiovox are different from the white one in the EMP museum. Like the pickup location.
The EMP bass has the pickup about halfway between the last fret and the bridge. The walnut bass has it much closer to the bridge.
This is probably why the TB guy who had access to the walnut bass says it sounded "thin", while the recording of the EMP bass sounds bassy and full.
(http://guitars4culture.wikispaces.com/file/view/Audiovox_1935_bass.jpg/142343023/Audiovox_1935_bass.jpg)(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/moonshinegtrs/IMG_0030copy.jpg)
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BTW, under the hood it looks like Tutmarc started to route it for a middle-position pickup, then changed his mind and did a bridge-position route.
(http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae241/cata1d0/ME/IMG_0066copy_zpsfece55e7.jpg)
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It's certainly possible that he started to put the pickup further from the bridge and changed his mind. I read somewhere that the earlier ones had the pickup closer to the bridge, but with no build dates I don't know how that was verified.
From Bud, about his own instruments:
During this time, in about the year 1948, I was making a guitar for a very excellent Hawaiian Steel Guitarist, Ray Morales. Ray had a very extensive ability on the Steel and upon occasion, played a lot of rhythm on the bass strings. He wanted a guitar that would give him more depth of sound on the bass strings. In an attempt to find a way to have the steel guitar give more depth on the bass strings, I took a pickup, outside of a guitar, and placed it in various places over the strings. I found that putting the pickup about six inches IN FRONT of the bridge gave much more depth of sound from the strings. Upon discovering this result, I changed all my pickups on my electric basses to some six inches from the bridge. This is still prevelant in basses today.
Also, while "fooling around" with this pickup, I found that slanting the pickup so that the polepiece would be farther from the bridge under the bass strings and closer to the bridge under the treble strings gave much more depth to the bass strings while not hurting the treble sound of the higher strings. I have a picture of Sol Hoopii holding one of my guitars in 1953. The guitar was my "slanted" pickup. With Sol passing away in 1953, I certainly have proof of being the first to "slant" the guitar pickup. You will note that most every guitar now has a slanted pickup (near the bridge).
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Some interesting Paul Tutmarc pics in this YT clip. Bonnie was his second wife; she's still living.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skfqZUy20NQ
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That pickup is really a horse shoe!
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That pickup is really a horse shoe!
Lot of iron in there. I wonder if the string pull is exceptionally strong. I wouldn't want to hold it near a hard drive, it might erase everything. ;D
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;D
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I am the "TB Guy" (that just doesn't sound right...) that took the pictures of the walnut bass.
Without a doubt, this bass was a short scale instrument. I know, I was there.
It was small in size. The bass (& a lap steel from the same period) were in the shop for one day. It was my job to authenticate it. Time was limited; I took it apart, pictures were taken, then it was reassembled. I did get to plug it into an amp and play on it (there was no male plug on the end of the cable so I used alligator clips to attach it to a cable so I could plug it in); the strings were beyond dead, but it did work.
My notes state that the scale was approx. 30" . The scale was just shy of that; my guess is 29 7/8".
Moonshine
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Thanks, Moonshine. I'll certainly take your word for it. Images can be deceiving.
BTW, besides the one I mentioned earlier, there's yet another Audiovox 7-string lap steel (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1930s-Audiovox-436A-7-String-Lap-Steel-Guitar-with-Matching-236-Amplifier-/360633680615?pt=Guitar&hash=item53f77142e7) on eBay right now, including the matching Audiovox amp. I don't think either auction will bring near the asking prices.
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I am the "TB Guy" (that just doesn't sound right...) that took the pictures of the walnut bass.
Without a doubt, this bass was a short scale instrument. I know, I was there.
It was small in size. The bass (& a lap steel from the same period) were in the shop for one day. It was my job to authenticate it. Time was limited; I took it apart, pictures were taken, then it was reassembled. I did get to plug it into an amp and play on it (there was no male plug on the end of the cable so I used alligator clips to attach it to a cable so I could plug it in); the strings were beyond dead, but it did work.
My notes state that the scale was approx. 30" . The scale was just shy of that; my guess is 29 7/8".
Moonshine
Thanks for clearing THAT up, and Welcome!...now post some builds!
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Thanks for clearing THAT up, and Welcome!...now post some builds!
Thanks dadagoboi, It's good to be here... Another forum to spend my my time looking at instead of building... Just what I need! :mrgreen:
I look forward to posting. I have some interesting stuff going on (at least interesting to me).
Here is another pic of the Audiovox... I may very well be the only person that has ever attempted to play the solo from Eruption on one of these:
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/moonshinegtrs/IMG_0003.jpg) (http://s646.photobucket.com/user/moonshinegtrs/media/IMG_0003.jpg.html)
This also shows how small the bass actually is.
Moonshine
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I'm wondering if the overall length is really shorter than the 42" shown in old ad. With a scale a hair under 30" that would mean that the headstock would have to be about 11" long, since the distance from the bridge to the butt is so short. It just doesn't look that long.
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I think 42" overall length almost has to be incorrect. I just measured my 68' Gibson EB0 & it measures just under 41". It's almost the same scale length (30.5), but there is considerably more space between the bottom of the bridge & the bottom of the body when compared to the Audiovox. I would guess that the Audiovox is closer to 38".
Moonshine
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Thanks. My wrong assumptions had been based on 42" being correct.
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I just posted this in the TalkBass forum: OK i have obsessing a bit about this bass. I emailed the EMP musuem and they kindly sent me these dimensions for the white enamel painted Audiovox 736 they have!
30 5/16” length – nut to bridge
37 ¾” length – overall
10” width – overall
1 ¾” depth – overall
So Moonshine's estimates were pretty close! Comparing pics of the white model with the dark walnut model which Moonshine posted, they seem nearly identical to me except for the position of the pickup. Hope someone on this list could make a CAD drawing and work out some other dimensions i.e. bridge position, pickup position, width at nut, etc.
Also perhaps inspection of an Audiovox lap steel might hint at the material the nut is made from, or other clues. The lap steels seem less rare. I'm thinking of making a full scale cardborad template. I have never made a real guitar but would love to make one of these!
P.S. it seems that EMP have removed the audio samples from public access on the internet.
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Thanks for this info. Very nice of them to pass the info along.
There are three of the lap steels on eBay right now, two of them show the nut. If I had to guess, they look like metal nuts but that's not unusual for a lap steel.
I have a couple of pieces of aged black walnut that I could use to make one. Don't know if I would make it with only 16 frets though.
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Here's a guess: the 42" length, listed in the 1930s advertising flyer, maybe they mean the size of the case. Since part of the pitch was to replace the Double Bass, they may have been referring to the total length of the case.
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That certainly could explain it. Or it could just be an error. Whatever the reason, the two examples we know of are both quite a bit shorter.
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Here's a picture I cropped from a post on the TalkBass forum by Deviate3s. The lap steel player is Paul Tutmarc, the bassist...maybe it is Paul's first wife Lorraine? This is from the cabinet display at the EMP museum in Seattle.
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Ok just found this photo at http://ifphc.org
The Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center website.
Credits are: 1936
Description:
DESCRIPTION: TUTMARC FAMILY WITH MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON. L-R: LORRAINE (PLAYING AUDIOVOX #736 ELECTRONICBASS), PAUL H., SR., JEANNE, AND PAUL H. BUD TUTMARC, JR.
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Ok just found this photo at http://ifphc.org
The Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center website.
Credits are: 1936
Description:
DESCRIPTION: TUTMARC FAMILY WITH MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN SEATTLE, WASHINGTON. L-R: LORRAINE (PLAYING AUDIOVOX #736 ELECTRONICBASS), PAUL H., SR., JEANNE, AND PAUL H. BUD TUTMARC, JR.
So does this mean the first electric bass player was Lorraine Tutmarc?! I must tell Carol Kaye!
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So does this mean the first electric bass player was Lorraine Tutmarc?! I must tell Carol Kaye!
Could be, but Bud (Paul Jr.) could be first, we know he was playing one in high school in the mid-30s because apparently there's at least one photo in his yearbook showing him playing it.
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I was going to post the link to an eBay auction for one of these but I see it's already done.
Here's a rare change to merge threads on the Audiovox 736!