The Last Bass Outpost
Gear Discussion Forums => Bass Amps & Effects => Topic started by: Granny Gremlin on May 28, 2016, 05:51:38 AM
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Our drummer is trying to sell off his old guitar rig, and I was wondering if anyone knows if anyone ever copied Hiwatt 4x12s in terms of cosemetics. I know there are copies of that now, but back in the 80s/90s. I am veryu skeptical that his cab is an actual Hiwatt but since it is actually rather well-built and pretty accurate cosemetically I am not sure. The speakers have been changed (2 Marshall-labelled Celestion G12s and 2 black frame ones with no labelling - assuming Eminence until I get a closer look to check the codes (a stupid config 16s and 8s in parallel for 12ish Ohms so I gotta do something about that).
This thing is largish for a 4x12 (some Marshalls are barely larger than the surface area required to mount the 4 12s) and heavy, which makes me lean to not-copy. Generally solid and the side handles appear to have been changed out (see some hacking around there on the inside). It does have the right tolex too - that's pretty distinctive.
I suppose pics would have helped; will see about that later today.
If anything it would be later era (black cloth, and when I googled Hiwatt 4x12, I got this pic which is identical to the cab in question (the support post, painted inside and cutout of the back mounting lip on the botom that acts as a sort of port).
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The speakers won't matter too much about being odd values as long as you know the final values...
I have a pair of 75W Governors in mine (Marshall slope), with two of the odd value PA speakers that came with it which are 60 w combined...
I have XLR's on the back with the values totalled marked on the cab, for one pair or the other or all four...
Scott has an original, iirc... original speakers were Fanes, iirc...
Pics... :popcorn:
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Hiwatt cranked out a lot more cabs than amps and for much longer than most people seem to think. The XLR is a "tell" on older 70's models, but they made cabs into the mid 80's which look like, well, Hiwatts but with more universal connection options. Another thing to consider: even with all the numerous name ownership/QC issues aside from using crap wood (which was VERY uncommon in anything before the mid 90's) and cheap speakers, even the most inane of owners could load a wire a cab which met the specs of its ancestors.
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Has your drummer ever knocked around with a The Who tribute band? I recently saw photos of a Rolling Stones tribute act using all sorts of stuff branded Ampeg... it might even have been on here! The cab could be something else dressed up as Hiwatt for a tribute act.
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LOL, no. Strictly hardcore punk bands for our drummer. I'll get some pics tonight (I bought yet another 4x12 - a Sunn/early Brit tall style with staggered speakers vs the square Marshall guitar style - today.... but I'll talk about that elsewhere) but I am convinced that it is a debranded later Hiwatt with changed out speakers (makes sense given the punk source).
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... I recently saw photos of a Rolling Stones tribute act using all sorts of stuff branded Ampeg... it might even have been on here! ...
That was probably Aussie Mark's outfit... ;)
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Here she is:
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211230.jpg)
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211259.jpg)
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211315.jpg)
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211327.jp)g
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211410.jpg)
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211425.jpg)
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211431.jpg)
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/IMG_20160529_211438.jpg)
So what makes me think it's a Hiwatt:
- the enlarged handles look like they were originally like these ones (slot cut into the sidewalls):
(http://www.guitare-village.com/occasion/_images/2015/20150706/hiwattd4.jpg)
- Has the vent on the bottom of the rear panel (as in the above pic)
- heavy and solidly made (quality plywood)
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That's an old Marshall 4x12; it looks like a smaller version of my 4x15. The grille cloth looks like it has been painted/definitely changed and would have originally been a light wheat color, and the changed handles were originally non-recessed with clear plastic handgrips. Hiwatt tolex is slightly lighter blue with a different texture pattern.
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I beg to differ - not a Marshall. This is likely a 70s Hiwatt cab, either an SA4122 or SA4123. Could be very early 80s. First clue is the vented rear baffle. Most 80s and 90s Hiwatt cabs were front-loaded and some had a velcro'd grill frame that was flush with the cab face (I own one) - this one is recessed. Also note the two rivets above the jack plate, which once held the ID badge on. The black levant covering also looks correct, and it appears the piping was once white. Grill cloth has been painted. Handles are retro fitted. Speakers are obviously not original. Cab interior is painted black - as it should be.
Oddly I passed on a cab recently that could almost be this one's twin, right down to the painted grill, but it had 3 original Fanes and a JBL.
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I don't have much of a dog in this fight, but I've never seen a Marshall with the white piping .... but I don't usually pay much attention to 4x12s.
Guess I'll wait on some tie-breaking opinions
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Not a Marshall. I'm not a Hiwatt expert by any means, but it does look Hiwattish to me.
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The complete lack of white piping around the grille (which I don't think is painted, but maybe replaced, which would be consistent with the missing piping) makes it harder to see as a Hiwatt. What made me think it was a copy at first is the piping on the top; could just be age and abuse, but it's all squished and blackenned - looked like the white rubbed off/was originally painted on There is a pipe, not just a stripe), but knowing them punk kids, maybe perm markered over or just dirty. Gonna take a closer look at that.
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The piping was probably removed - you know that the speakers were out at least once, so the baffle may have been pulled also. I don't think the grill cloth was replaced - I've never seen a cane-style cloth in solid black. Pull a speaker and look at the back side of the cloth - I doubt they would have taken the trouble to paint both sides. If it's original it should be salt-and-pepper. Looking close up at the grill, I think I see the holes where the nameplate would be riveted in.
To my knowledge, nobody but Hiwatt did a vent port at the bottom of the rear baffle.
This is the cab I looked at recently:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/lowend1/IMG_20160331_172202707_zpsc2u8wqev.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lowend1/media/IMG_20160331_172202707_zpsc2u8wqev.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/lowend1/IMG_20160331_172227805_zpsfz9mh4hw.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lowend1/media/IMG_20160331_172227805_zpsfz9mh4hw.jpg.html)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/lowend1/IMG_20160331_172232645_zpsbhnlcx08.jpg) (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/lowend1/media/IMG_20160331_172232645_zpsbhnlcx08.jpg.html)
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Holy crap, the piping around the grille is there just painted/sharpied black (so maybe the grille was painted vs changed after all.... changing it out seems like too much of an awful pain for some punk kids now that I think about it; probably just took a rattle can to the whole thing). It was really hard to see - had to feel it to notice. Guess with the high contrast it doesn't really have to be too prominent when it's white to be seen.
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Defiantly Hiwatt. The rear port and the rivet positions on the back for the data plate id it as one. Originally loaded with Fanes. I agreed the grill has been spray painted. One of these in nice condition with the original Fanes would bring $1,200-$1,500. I don't see this going for any more than $300-$400 and that would be on a good day.
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Even less than that around here. I've mentioned it before, but Hiwatt 4x12s are not particulatrly in demand locally - they're just a known-to-be-solidly-built 4x12, in a sea of similar options, though the port is somewhat unique from what I gather.
I think I'll put it up in the local adds as with or without speakers C$250/150, and take 100 unloaded if someone offers. Give the option of this weird set or the Marslands from my Riviera 4x12. I can easily get US$50 per pair for the speakers on ebay.
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I would be all over that cabinet for $150!
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I would love for you to have it and give it the TLC it needs, but yeah, not worth shipping.
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It's 170 miles to Toronto, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark out, and we're wearing sunglasses.
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don't be a tease 8)
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I'm curious, anybody have a guess at the tuning frequency of that rear port?
Unusual to see "guitar" cabs with ports at all. I did use to have an Ampeg VT-22 2x12" cab with a circular port in the front baffle ... like this fliptops repro (here unloaded w/ grille off):
(http://www.fliptops.net/content/images/products/CABINETS/VT222X12GRILLOFF%20LORES.jpg)
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I'll be in Wainfleet for a week for the Labor day holiday. :)
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I'll be in Wainfleet for a week for the Labor day holiday. :)
If you're serious about making it work I can hold it for you. That's a 2ish hour drive. Probably a bit more because it's off the main highways a bit (I just played a festival in St Catherines a month ago). Maybe can meet you halfway.... or come jam (my studio is on the waterfront just off the highway).
I'm curious, anybody have a guess at the tuning frequency of that rear port?
Unusual to see "guitar" cabs with ports at all. I did use to have an Ampeg VT-22 2x12" cab with a circular port in the front baffle
Yeah, unusual, but not too surprising - flatter response down to the port tuning; still more bass extension than the same speaker in an open back; smaller than an equivalently extended sealed cab.
The tuning depends on some unknowns, but doing some quick speculative math gives me approx 77 Hz (which is about right considering most guitar 12s have a resonant freq of 70-86 Hz; Eminence tend to be on the lower end and Celestions on the high end - not sure about Fanes... also low E is 82.whatever Hz, so not much sense tuning too much lower).
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I am serious! Let me know how you would like proceed :)
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I would like to proceed by casually inviting you to jam at my joint, with the knowledge that this may be out of the way a tad, so we may have to come up with something else. In the mean time, I'll sell off the drive units (don't think the Marshall Celestions would work for you, but maybe the Eminences - 16 ohms tho; lemme know); the cab will just chill for a few months awaiting her ride to reunion with her cousins.
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Very kind offer! Sell the drivers if you like I am more interested in the cabinet! I would like nothing more to meet at your studio but I think the missus might take a dim view of me disappearing for the day. It's our first real vacation in about 5 years and we only have the cottage for a week. If we can meet at a halfway point that would be great. Thanks again, Scott
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Yeah I hear you on that; we'll work something out then.
Best case is I take the kids to the beach at one of the local Prov Parks or Conservation Areas; worst case you can pick it up from my bud/bandmate who lives in Niagara Falls.
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Yup; the original cloth colour can be seen from the back side. For a resto it might just be as easy as flipping it around.
(http://grannygremlin.com/images/nonwebpics/Hiwatt4x12/HiWatt4x12-SpkrsOut.jpg)
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Exactly what I was thinking!
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Heading up on September 3rd!
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I'm out of town next week (leaving Sat) but back for the 3rd. Worst case is me sending it home with a bud who lives in The Falls (we'll be jamming early that week). I'll hit you up on PM after I check on some things, but I think the 4th might be the best bet for me to drive out to meet you.
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Not exactly related, but wasn't about to start a new thread since I already got Scott's attention here. Wonder if you 've ever come across one of these:
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m570/loudtubeamps/Amp%20Porn/Picture2.png?t=1361020881)
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m570/loudtubeamps/Amp%20Porn/DSC03800.jpg?t=1360967318)
Apparently the same as a Hiwatt Slave 200 but in a rack mount chassis with XLRs for some reason. It takes 740V on the plates to get 200 watts out of those 6 EL34s; close to their operational limit and more than an SVT.
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??? :o
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Never seen one of those before! The 4th would work.
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We the deal was done in the dark of night under the light of a half moon. Jake delivered the cab to my location, very very kind of him. Thanks so much Jake! I can't wait to get it sorted out and onstage. Pics to come!
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Got it cleaned up a bit. The white pipping was painted in a gloss black, doesn't seem to be the same paint used to spray the grill. The grill is salt and pepper but I am wondering if Hiwatt sprayed salt and pepper grills black in the 80's? The spray job is matt, very thin and very even doesn't look like a diy job. I cleaned the pipping with denatured alcohol the paint came right off. I tried cleaning the grill with a number of things nothing touched it ( going to try lacquer thinner next). I have a bolt of salt and pepper replacement grill, I will probably replace it over the winter. It is a pita job, the mounting frame is glued and screwed it will take some doing to get it apart. While I am at it I will load it with Eminence Deltas. I took the logo off my dinky practice amp funny enough it is the right size lol! The cab will be up onstage next week with Who's That. I'll get some picks and hopefully some video! Thanks again Jake! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v102/godofthunder59/Hiwatt4123%20Canada%20001_zps18wpinvd.jpg)
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No sweat, just glad this worked out.
Looks better already!